The Black Tower

[nordlicht]

Small gates.. Or fire a crossbow bolt through it.

 

Sounds good. In Androl´s scenes it was stated that all the Two-Rivers-guys are on the Anti-Taim-Team and (as if we didn´t already know^^) how good they are with bows...

[johthohar]

The 13x13 rule I think is really going to setup for Rands own turning. I don't think Rands is going to face an actual "shaitan". But instead will become a vessel for the will of the shadow..if for a short time. In a way I think that "shaitan" already feel the original Forsaken are failures and will never make them a Naeblis. Which is why I feel Taim is the most likely culprit. A new dreadlord creating other dread lords.

As far as Ashaman are concerned, we're shown several examples of male and female changeless working together. Whether, by bonding or circles, the Whitetower will absorb the remaining black tower restoring the ancient Aes Sedai way. Not to mention we're already getting an impression that Elayne isn't comfortable with the black tower being located within Andors borders.

I too wonder what's the significance of the small gates. Maybe a way of sending small weaves through long distances? Think some sort of grenade move?

 

**coughcough**Moridin!**cough**

[Crael123]

This plotline was SO COOL I wish we got WAY more.

 

And go two rivers lads!! they know whats up

[JakeBarnes]

He's first mentioned in TGS when Flynn says he can't make Gates like Androl.

Yes, the back story is intriguing.

 

He actually first appeared in the WH prologue.

[Danvighar]

I've always thought that blocks are not the same as bars - that bars are artificial self-limits on effectiveness, while blocks are artificial self-limits on channeling at all.

 

Small gateways can be used inside the body or brain, if Androl has or gains a good mental grasp on anatomy. Bam! Instant Mesaana. Bam! Instant 'heart attack' or 'catastrophic rupture of the femoral artery'.

[bobthecrusher]

What makes us so sure that it had to be a 13x13? I know that Tarna wouldn't have 'willingly' turned to the shadow, but is there anything else it could be? If it was a 13x13, then why not come in and grab all of the reds and turn them one by one? Have you considered a Ter'Angreal? One that requires the person to willingly come to Taim and purposely touch it? And for the dream Spike, how would they get another, and why would any of the Forsaken allow Taim to use it, unless Taim was one of them? Egwene's dream basically confirms that there isn't an extra Forsaken, but Taim was involved somehow in the death of Asmodean (the loss of one teacher and suddenly another completely sane one shows up on your door step?) But his extent of interaction with the DO has been greatly limited. His POV's that I recall left some room to speculate onthe DF thing, but I suppose it's fairly obvious that he is.

 

My main question is this: if Graendal was barely allowed to take the dream spike, and had to use Slayer to put it into position and Perrin became aware of it so quickly, how could they have gotten a second Dream Spie without anyone knowing and put it into the BT? UNless Brandon Sanderson has said something specific about it in an interview, I don't think we should rule out the possibility of a Ter'Angreal (other than a Dream Spike) that blocks gateways.

[Val Mickey]

Why hasn't Taim 13ed all of BT?

 

I think it's because the Myrddraal get used up by the rite. The Shadow 'gains' a channeler by using the essence of 13 Myrddraal, but then the Myrddraal are dead.

 

Taim has run out of Myrddraal. There might be a shortage of Myrddraal, as Central Supply decides to employ them elsewhere.

 

All this is speculation, so don't ask me for a reference.

 

I'd give an arm to find out what Logain is planning. A war for sure, but how?

 

I also found it interesting how the TR's best fletcher is now in the BT. Also, how his grandson says how he can pick off 5 Trollocs (or Fades? Not sure) before they come close (Foreshadowing!). A major part of the BT action will be stealth and arrows. Which will be AWESOME.

 

I can just see it - A Trolloc arrow streaks toward Logain - Androl opens a mini-gate - Arrow takes Taim in the throat = WIN.

[dwn]

What makes us so sure that it had to be a 13x13? I know that Tarna wouldn't have 'willingly' turned to the shadow, but is there anything else it could be? If it was a 13x13, then why not come in and grab all of the reds and turn them one by one? Have you considered a Ter'Angreal? One that requires the person to willingly come to Taim and purposely touch it? And for the dream Spike, how would they get another, and why would any of the Forsaken allow Taim to use it, unless Taim was one of them? Egwene's dream basically confirms that there isn't an extra Forsaken, but Taim was involved somehow in the death of Asmodean (the loss of one teacher and suddenly another completely sane one shows up on your door step?) But his extent of interaction with the DO has been greatly limited. His POV's that I recall left some room to speculate onthe DF thing, but I suppose it's fairly obvious that he is.

 

My main question is this: if Graendal was barely allowed to take the dream spike, and had to use Slayer to put it into position and Perrin became aware of it so quickly, how could they have gotten a second Dream Spie without anyone knowing and put it into the BT? UNless Brandon Sanderson has said something specific about it in an interview, I don't think we should rule out the possibility of a Ter'Angreal (other than a Dream Spike) that blocks gateways.

 

It's far more likely that Taim has only dealt with a few direct threats with a mindtrap or the 13x13 trick. Taim probably has a core group of DF Asha'man, a few more power-hungry opportunists, and even more that are just too scared to oppose him. So far we've only seen two people--Tarna and Mezar--who have been obviously converted.

 

-- dwn

[johthohar]

I've always thought that blocks are not the same as bars - that bars are artificial self-limits on effectiveness, while blocks are artificial self-limits on channeling at all.

 

Small gateways can be used inside the body or brain, if Androl has or gains a good mental grasp on anatomy. Bam! Instant Mesaana. Bam! Instant 'heart attack' or 'catastrophic rupture of the femoral artery'.

 

This would be pretty cool. But the biggest problem with it is because Androl is so weak it would be insanely simple for most of the forsaken (or any other channeler) to bat his weaves away like a fly unless he managed to sneak up on them somehow.

[KoenVandendurpel]

Hi there,

 

If Tarna was 13 x 13 then what happend to the three oaths she took?

Are they erased like when you get severed? or are they twisted?

Anybody an idea?

[johthohar]

Hi there,

 

If Tarna was 13 x 13 then what happend to the three oaths she took?

Are they erased like when you get severed? or are they twisted?

Anybody an idea?

 

That's actually a really good question. But we can only guess (and I'm sure many people will) until we know more about the nature of the 13x13 process and how it actually turns channelers to the shadow.

[dshirey09]

I've noticed a couple of times people mentioning the lines "there is a ______ in the blight", where is this from? I'm totally blanking if its from the series at some point, but I'm guessing its from an interview with RJ or BS? Enlightenment would be awesome! :)

[Zefram]

 

regarding the black tower affairs, for me the most awesome thing for Logain and his glory would be if he would be 1313ed by TaimCorp. and resist it or even "come back" and that not by help of rebel sedai, pageboys, taveren effects like a badger tripping Taim at the crucial moment or anything the like, but out of his own sheer willpower and goodcharacterness. but well, I´ll have to do make with blood and sisters walking the BT´s grounds...

 

 

Well, it is a given that Logain will cover himself in glory and its probably not going to be for the dark but for the Light. whether or not its by taking down Taim on his own without Rand's help or fighting during last battle it is unknown.

 

It is also known that he will laughingly step over a body of a man, but I can't remember exactly the passage if it was stated there if the body was of Rand or just "body". If its just body its probably Taim or Moridin, if its Rand, well I do have a swap body theory for final battle too! LOL

 

The 13x13 rule I think is really going to setup for Rands own turning. I don't think Rands is going to face an actual "shaitan". But instead will become a vessel for the will of the shadow..if for a short time. In a way I think that "shaitan" already feel the original Forsaken are failures and will never make them a Naeblis. Which is why I feel Taim is the most likely culprit. A new dreadlord creating other dread lords.

As far as Ashaman are concerned, we're shown several examples of male and female changeless working together. Whether, by bonding or circles, the Whitetower will absorb the remaining black tower restoring the ancient Aes Sedai way. Not to mention we're already getting an impression that Elayne isn't comfortable with the black tower being located within Andors borders.

I too wonder what's the significance of the small gates. Maybe a way of sending small weaves through long distances? Think some sort of grenade move?

 

Pretty sure that DO already chosen Naeblis which is Moridin aka Ishamael, its been stated several time already in previous books.

 

As for new Forsaken, the originals were called so because they turned to dark of their own volition as a great shock to forces of light since all of them originally were "good", none of the Forsaken became evil because they were compulsed to do or turned 13x13. Even if the most gifted channelers were turned to shadow by 13x13 essentially against their own free will, they'll be nothing more than unimaginative puppets, foot soldiers although powerful ones.

 

My prediction that Rand will face Moridin and perhaps super-fade - Shadar but not DO directly. As for him becoming a vessel for DO, he kind of already is but balanced by light. He still can channel true power =DO.

[bobthecrusher]

 

regarding the black tower affairs, for me the most awesome thing for Logain and his glory would be if he would be 1313ed by TaimCorp. and resist it or even "come back" and that not by help of rebel sedai, pageboys, taveren effects like a badger tripping Taim at the crucial moment or anything the like, but out of his own sheer willpower and goodcharacterness. but well, I´ll have to do make with blood and sisters walking the BT´s grounds...

 

 

Well, it is a given that Logain will cover himself in glory and its probably not going to be for the dark but for the Light. whether or not its by taking down Taim on his own without Rand's help or fighting during last battle it is unknown.

 

It is also known that he will laughingly step over a body of a man, but I can't remember exactly the passage if it was stated there if the body was of Rand or just "body". If its just body its probably Taim or Moridin, if its Rand, well I do have a swap body theory for final battle too! LOL

 

The 13x13 rule I think is really going to setup for Rands own turning. I don't think Rands is going to face an actual "shaitan". But instead will become a vessel for the will of the shadow..if for a short time. In a way I think that "shaitan" already feel the original Forsaken are failures and will never make them a Naeblis. Which is why I feel Taim is the most likely culprit. A new dreadlord creating other dread lords.

As far as Ashaman are concerned, we're shown several examples of male and female changeless working together. Whether, by bonding or circles, the Whitetower will absorb the remaining black tower restoring the ancient Aes Sedai way. Not to mention we're already getting an impression that Elayne isn't comfortable with the black tower being located within Andors borders.

I too wonder what's the significance of the small gates. Maybe a way of sending small weaves through long distances? Think some sort of grenade move?

 

Pretty sure that DO already chosen Naeblis which is Moridin aka Ishamael, its been stated several time already in previous books.

 

As for new Forsaken, the originals were called so because they turned to dark of their own volition as a great shock to forces of light since all of them originally were "good", none of the Forsaken became evil because they were compulsed to do or turned 13x13. Even if the most gifted channelers were turned to shadow by 13x13 essentially against their own free will, they'll be nothing more than unimaginative puppets, foot soldiers although powerful ones.

 

My prediction that Rand will face Moridin and perhaps super-fade - Shadar but not DO directly. As for him becoming a vessel for DO, he kind of already is but balanced by light. He still can channel true power =DO.

 

only a portion of the DO will come out of the Bore, just like when Lews Therin faced him when he had to seal it. The problem was that when lews Therin sealed it, he only used Saiden, and thus gave a weakness for Shaitan to attack; when he tainted Saiden, he made the seal imperfect, and able to eventually break. rand will have to fight him directly or he can't seal the Bore. though the idea of the DO tainting him is interesting, I don't think that's where they're going

[gary0044187]

 

regarding the black tower affairs, for me the most awesome thing for Logain and his glory would be if he would be 1313ed by TaimCorp. and resist it or even "come back" and that not by help of rebel sedai, pageboys, taveren effects like a badger tripping Taim at the crucial moment or anything the like, but out of his own sheer willpower and goodcharacterness. but well, I´ll have to do make with blood and sisters walking the BT´s grounds...

 

 

Well, it is a given that Logain will cover himself in glory and its probably not going to be for the dark but for the Light. whether or not its by taking down Taim on his own without Rand's help or fighting during last battle it is unknown.

 

It is also known that he will laughingly step over a body of a man, but I can't remember exactly the passage if it was stated there if the body was of Rand or just "body". If its just body its probably Taim or Moridin, if its Rand, well I do have a swap body theory for final battle too! LOL

 

The 13x13 rule I think is really going to setup for Rands own turning. I don't think Rands is going to face an actual "shaitan". But instead will become a vessel for the will of the shadow..if for a short time. In a way I think that "shaitan" already feel the original Forsaken are failures and will never make them a Naeblis. Which is why I feel Taim is the most likely culprit. A new dreadlord creating other dread lords.

As far as Ashaman are concerned, we're shown several examples of male and female changeless working together. Whether, by bonding or circles, the Whitetower will absorb the remaining black tower restoring the ancient Aes Sedai way. Not to mention we're already getting an impression that Elayne isn't comfortable with the black tower being located within Andors borders.

I too wonder what's the significance of the small gates. Maybe a way of sending small weaves through long distances? Think some sort of grenade move?

 

Pretty sure that DO already chosen Naeblis which is Moridin aka Ishamael, its been stated several time already in previous books.

 

As for new Forsaken, the originals were called so because they turned to dark of their own volition as a great shock to forces of light since all of them originally were "good", none of the Forsaken became evil because they were compulsed to do or turned 13x13. Even if the most gifted channelers were turned to shadow by 13x13 essentially against their own free will, they'll be nothing more than unimaginative puppets, foot soldiers although powerful ones.

 

My prediction that Rand will face Moridin and perhaps super-fade - Shadar but not DO directly. As for him becoming a vessel for DO, he kind of already is but balanced by light. He still can channel true power =DO.

 

only a portion of the DO will come out of the Bore, just like when Lews Therin faced him when he had to seal it. The problem was that when lews Therin sealed it, he only used Saiden, and thus gave a weakness for Shaitan to attack; when he tainted Saiden, he made the seal imperfect, and able to eventually break. rand will have to fight him directly or he can't seal the Bore. though the idea of the DO tainting him is interesting, I don't think that's where they're going

I never believed the DO would ever physically manifest. I always expected mad changes to the world like the bubbles of evil, with shadar harin being his physical vessel. I have always thought that the only reason the world didn't go nutso before was the number of OP users preventing it.

[johthohar]

I've noticed a couple of times people mentioning the lines "there is a ______ in the blight", where is this from? I'm totally blanking if its from the series at some point, but I'm guessing its from an interview with RJ or BS? Enlightenment would be awesome! :)

 

Quoted from another user:

 

Q: This question has to do with a conversation I had with Wilson.

Brandon: Oh okay, is this going to be? Okay, I think I know what this is going to be.

Q: At last JordanCon I was talking with Wilson, and he was telling me about the night that Robert Jordan told him the end of the book.

Brandon: Uh huh.

Q: And he says that it started off with the word... they were talking about whatever, and it started off with Robert Jordan getting really quiet and then leaning in and saying, "There is a _____ in the Blight." To which that completely blindsides Wilson. He says, "There’s a what?!?" And Robert Jordan then says, "There's a _____ in the Blight and not even Harriet knows about it." And then went on for two hours describing about how this was important and pivotal and yet takes place... be really important for the end of the book. Any further hints?

Brandon: And see, Wilson can get away with stuff that I can't. And that is a story I've been told by three different people now. In fact, the first day I was there in Charleston, Harriet told it to me. Then Maria told it to me. And then I met Wilson later and he told it to me. Because that was the day when they suddenly said, "We need a tape recorder. Someone get a tape recorder." And I think Maria, like, went to the store to get one and came back with... But then, that was the session where he started for the first time dictating what was to happen and things like this. I do know that story. It's great for you to share it with everyone. I would not have shared that story because I have to be extra careful not to cross any lines. And so…you will get hints about whatever that was in the next book [Towers of Midnight].

 

Also, click here for the actual thread.

[Ltsegarra]

I'm probably to metaphysical for my own good but heres my "13x13" evil Rand argument...

 

In Perrins wolf dream of Rand on top of the mountain, the wolves basically tells Perrin that, "...either they will fight the Last Battle or nothing". To me this implies that Rand is at his closest to becoming Dark One Rand, by his own choosing. Perrin understands that if rand wins this fight on top of the mountain the wolves get another chance or a "Last Battle" if not everything comes to an end.

It's always about Rand. We can safely assume that since Rand consciously won this fight on the mountain and has become an avatar of light. However, the wheel ot Time functions on a duality nature. Both "light and dark" must be present to reseal the Dark One. I think Rand must therefore be forced into the Dark Ones service for two reason. First, no person has been shown to be converted this way as of yet in the novels. Secondly, the Dark Ones instruction was always to capture and corrupt Rand. In a way Rand will represent the white/black Aes Sedai symbol.

 

 

On the black tower...

I believe Taim has finally stepped from the shadows with his dread lords and leads the attack on Camelyn. Also foolishly I think while attacking, they may also attack the Seachan either accidentally or on purposes. Most likely an assassination attempt on Toun. This may inadvertently lead to a temporary truce with Elyane/Andor and others namely the Whitetower. I forsee a three-way war between Andor, the Seachan, and the Blacktower/trollocs. Perhaps the 13x13 rule is intended on Tuon to bind her to the DarkOnes will rather than Rand. Thereby, binding the entire Seachan army to the DO also.

Perhaps Taim and demadreds plan is to 13x13 "bind" Elayne, Toun, and Rand, forever crippling the lands ability to repel further Trolloc and kdreadlord invasions.

 

On the way gates ...

If Taim has used the way gates, does this mean that in some fashion maaik shin is being controlled. I thought that the "Taint", shadar logoth, and the "devil wind" were all tied together.

[blazetheearth]

Emarin is not Logain. The name is that of the brother of the Tarien noble (the one Cads captured and had gentled at the WT) that loaned his house to Rand, where he and Logain (w/ help) fought the 20,000 trollocs. It was said that the noble himself asked to be tested and had already left for the BT. Emarin says that he say Rand just before going to BT. Seems pretty obvious that Emarin is actually the Tarien noble (I forgot his name) who took his dead brother's name when he became a channeler (like his brother).

[dshirey09]

Thanks for the reply on my question. It makes more sense now, although probably just raises more overall questions haha. Did RJ really say <blank>, or did he actually say the real thing and no one remembers.

[Mr Ares]

If Tarna was 13 x 13 then what happend to the three oaths she took?

Are they erased like when you get severed? or are they twisted?

Anybody an idea?

My guess would be that there is no change to the Oaths. If one is changed in that manner, one is just as bound by them as before.

 

 

On the way gates ...

If Taim has used the way gates, does this mean that in some fashion maaik shin is being controlled. I thought that the "Taint", shadar logoth, and the "devil wind" were all tied together.

While the possibility of tainted saidin (which was used to create the Ways) having something to do with the creation of Machin Shin is raised in the books, there is no known link between MS and Shadar Logoth, nor between SL and the taint.

 

 

Emarin is not Logain. The name is that of the brother of the Tarien noble (the one Cads captured and had gentled at the WT) that loaned his house to Rand, where he and Logain (w/ help) fought the 20,000 trollocs. It was said that the noble himself asked to be tested and had already left for the BT. Emarin says that he say Rand just before going to BT. Seems pretty obvious that Emarin is actually the Tarien noble (I forgot his name) who took his dead brother's name when he became a channeler (like his brother).

Lord Algarin was the name you were looking for.

 

 

Thanks for the reply on my question. It makes more sense now, although probably just raises more overall questions haha. Did RJ really say <blank>, or did he actually say the real thing and no one remembers.

At a guess, he said what it was to Wilson, but Wilson only passed along <blank> to others outside Team Jordan, so as to avoid spoilers.

[Mystraka]

Hi there,

 

If Tarna was 13 x 13 then what happend to the three oaths she took?

Are they erased like when you get severed? or are they twisted?

Anybody an idea?

 

I don't believe the act of 13x13 removes the oaths, however from Graendals POV we see that Moridin has 3 binding rods (TOM Chapter 5/Writings). It can be assumed that any channeler bound to the Aes Sedai oaths they choose to turn, will also be freed from said oaths.

[DemandredFO]

I would assume Tarna was unbound after her turning because that would make her kind of useless otherwise.

[Jeangray]

It's far more likely that Taim has only dealt with a few direct threats with a mindtrap or the 13x13 trick. Taim probably has a core group of DF Asha'man, a few more power-hungry opportunists, and even more that are just too scared to oppose him. So far we've only seen two people--Tarna and Mezar--who have been obviously converted.

 

Taim has deployed the dreamspike. It is an open declaration of war to Rand. He is about to start the end-game and kill or convert everybody in the BT or to otherwise blackmail them into actions destructive to the Light - all those families are quite handy for this purpose, I imagine. We have seen only 2 converted people, but the BT is big. Conversion is probably working dull-tilt by now, otherwise why risk the dreamspike? Concealment is nearly over and it is not in Taim's interest to leave anybody alive behind.

[DragonEmpire]

greetings. something has been bothering me as regards the black tower. can someone anwswer this? heres a quote from Logain in KOD "More than half the Black Tower is in Arad Doman and Illian. I sent all the men with bonded Aes Sedai except those here,as you orderd" and this is paraprasing of Pevaras Pov in TOM "there was a line of small buildings where bonded Aes Sedai made there homes. she heard what some of them were doing trying to control their Ashaman". now my question is this from Pevaras own POV there are Aes Sedai in the BT,however this is in direct contradiction to Logains statement in KOD. so where do these Aes Sedai come from? are they the original Bondees? from back in Tpod? and if so is this part of Logains final resolution for teh BT? can someone help me out? any thoughts or theories?

[David Selig]

It doesn't have to be a contradiction. The Asha'man probably left with Logain, but the bonded Aes Sedai stayed in the BT.