The Black Tower

[Lironah]

Ah. This again. No, what happened was that RJ changed his mind or simply made a mistake. Earlier printings of LoC have "a black-haired man of slightly above average height..." Current editions now have "a black-haired man of well above average height..."

 

My copy must be the earlier edition. I've never seen this quote before, but it certainly makes things simpler for explaining to the 'it can't be mask of mirrors because...' crowd.

[griz]

And Taim is Moridin. Sometimes a duck is a duck.

NO if you're going to claim a duck is just a duck ( or a cigar is just a cigar ) then you would have to say that Taim = Taim and Moridin = Moridin.

 

And, if you're going to say that Taim = Moridin than you're saying sometimes a duck is really a crane.

While I see what you are saying, you miss the point. Everything we see about Taim points to him being a 2nd Ager, not a 3rd ager, and one of the Forsaken. He uses Forsaken sigils of a higher rank than Be'lal or Sammael. He flies Moridin's colors. He has access to instructions given only to Chosen. He manifests a TP aura when only Moridin had access to the TP. He uses 2nd age speech patterns. He has access to ter'angreal that only Moridin/Graendal have access to (the DO's favored pair). He suddenly is standing like Rand and assuming a warder's grace and gait, even though we know he disdains the sword.

You make assumptions and call them facts. In fact, Taim is mysterious, but there is more to suggest him being Taim than him being Moridin. He uses a sigil Moridin doesn't, which you interpret to mean he is of higher rank due to the gilding, he wears Moridin's colours but that doesn't mean he is Moridin, he has access to instructions given only to the Chosen and those the Chosen passed them on to (Suroth was told to let the Lord of Chaos rule. I'm glad we've established her Chosen-hood), he manifests a dark aura you interpret as a TP aura, he uses a phrase previously used a second-ager, one suspected of having taught Taim (likewise explaining the colours), he has access to a ter'angreal that Moridin had two of and gave to those serving him, and he has been seen standing with one arm behind his back. Wow. How very compelling. You're going to need a fair bit more than that to really win people over, you know, especially given the points against.

 

Sorry. Moridin = Taim = Duck. You have to twist yourself in knots to not see it.

Well, if it walks like a pigeon, looks like a pigeon and coos like a pigeon, I suppose it's only reasonable to call it a duck.

 

Give me a coherent explanation for all the traits we KNOW of instead of picking some other info from the series and saying that disproves the idea.

We have. You've ignored it. Give an explanation for the different orders, or him spending most of his time rallying the Shadow's forces and not in the BT, or them looking different but Rand seeing Moridin in his mind and never Taim.

 

I am almost 100 percent sure that RJ said Taim = Taim.

I don't recall any such quote. A shame, as it would have been very helpful.

 

Regarding Mr. Ares, lets just say we disagree. Taim is Moridin. He definitely stands the way Rand does, he moves with near a Warders grace, despite having said he hates the sword.

Because Warders are the only people who can be graceful?

And you still haven't addressed the issue with the sigil (same as Be'lal's and Sammael's).

Yes, I have. He shares a sigil with two guys who aren't Moridin, therefore he is Moridin isn't logical. He has his sigil gilded, Sammael and Be'lal didn't, therefore he stands higher runs into the problem of us having no evidence that either Be'lal or Sammael stood higher than the other, despite one using steel and one using silver.

Or the fact that he radiates a dark aura as far back as Winter's Heart (TP usage).

Well, yes I did. Even if it was TP usage, all it means is that Taim was granted the use of it. We know that is well within Shai'tan's power. It being granted to Graendal weakens the case as it is not restricted purely to the Nae'blis.

 

Mesanna was Danelle. Graendal killed Asmodean. Moiraine is back. Mat gave up his eye. Cyndane is Lanfear. And Weiramon was a DF. Noal was Farstrider. Galad and Berelain are in love. Setalle Anan was the woman who is no more. And Taim is Moridin. Sometimes a duck is a duck.

But not everything with two legs, a beak and feathers is a duck, which is what you're claiming. Especially when this duck doesn't quack like Moridin. I've yet to see a decent counter to the different orders in WH.

 

 

I could also offer an interesting point for those who believe Taim is just a lacky. Apparently in a Q & A with RJ someone asked if Weaves of the OP could be learned from a book, (I'm assuming they meant a old aes sedai text book with diagrams)

RJ answered: oh hehe that's a RAFO!

It seems that Moiraine might have done so with balefire, and Egwene appears to have pieced together cuendillar from descriptions Moghedien gave of the weave.

 

It's weird how everyone assumes that the stronger you are the bigger your Gateway, Androl makes massive Gateways and teeny tiny ones but can barely channel a candle flame.

Well, a fairly solid assumption before this book - aside from Avi (who was using a second method, as she forgot the one she originally used in FoH), Gateways always appeared to be larger for stronger channelers. Androl is the only exception we have seen. Contrast with Healing, where strength in the power and strength of Talent are quite different, and stated so numerous times.

 

I will add another argument against this whole Taim=Moridin theory: In a Graendal POV in tGS when she is meeting with Moridin (I believe the same one where Demondred says My rule is secure) she mentions that Moridin spends pretty much all of his time in the Blight marshalling the Shadow's forces there. This would not seem to leave him a whole lot of time to perform all of Taim's activities (and Taim appears to be keeping pretty busy). It makes much more sense for him to delegate those responsibilities to a trusted minion.

The time thing is the best argument against it, though it certainly isn't impossible to overcome (vacuoles, Portal Stones, etc). And Taim goes on lots of recruiting trips for the DR, and Graendal doesn't spend much time in the blight checking on Moridin, but in Arad Doman and going about her own business. The biggest problem with it is that I certainly don't see any such quote from Graendal in the tGS prologue. Come back with chapter and verse, and I'll give it more thought. And even if it was true (which I see no evidence of), it would only be true for the brief period of the tGS novel. Hardly a long time.

"...the others were easy to track. Moridin was gathering the Great Lord's forces for the Last Battle, and his war preparations left him very little time for the south - though his two minions, Cyndane and Moghedien, occasionally showed their faces there." TGS Prologue. P 36 in my edition (UK hardback). So Graendal is tracking most of the Chosen - only Demandred is proving a complete mystery - and Moridin very rarely being in the south flatly rules out him spending most of his time at the BT, as Taim would do.

 

Again, the conflicting orders thing is also good evidence against, but it can be overcome.

Then overcome it. You have yet to do so.

 

2) You missed the whole point: it isn't just a Warder's grace, but the sense of being a Warder referred to 100 times in the series from a man who isn't in any way martial (he hates the sword). Why the sudden switch, and why not perceived until AFTER aCoS. He didn't have it in LoC or earlier. The point isn't that he's graceful/not, it's that he not approximating a Warder. That isn't a sense you get from others, say Berelain or Faile, who are also graceful. Or even an accomplished soldier, like Dobraine. Throw in the fact that he is standing with one arm behind his back (like Rand) and we know Moridin has adopted some of Rand's mannerisms/pain with his rubbing of his arm (where Rand lost his hand) in tGS prologue. It seems pretty clear that if Taim isn't Moridin, at least RJ and BS are trying to make us think he is.

I'm going to need quotes on the warders grace thing for Taim. And it starting after ACoS.

 

3) Sigil. Again, you miss the point. The others with the Sigil are Forsaken. And steel (Sammael) would be below silver (Be'lal).

Yet we have no evidence to indicate that Sammael did stand below Be'lal. You take the sigil and make it mean what you want it to mean. If gold sigil stood higher than silver sigil, stood higher than steel sigil, you would have a point. Yet we have nothing besides the different colouring to suggest that Taim stands higher than Sammael stood higher than Be'lal.

No non-Forsaken has ever displayed that Sigil.

Eleven of the Chosen have also never displayed it. By that reasoning, Taim is either Sammael or Be'lal. Neither Demandred nor Moridin has ever displayed that sigil.

Do I need to draw a logic tree for you?

We've already demonstrated the hole in your logic.

 

4) TP. Again, we've never seen a non-Forsaken (other than Rand) use the TP.

Yet the mere fact of Rand using it harms your argument. It is not restricted to the Nae'blis, nor to the Chosen even. If Shai'tan deigned to give Taim access, he would have access. We know it is not something only Moridin can use, therefore its use (which is only implied) does not mean the user is Moridin. If it did, then Graendal and Rand, and nearly thrity other, would all be Moridin as well.

The odds the DO would give that to a non-Chosen 3rd ager pupil of Demandred (but not Demandred himself) are just so small it isn't even worth mentioning.

Pupil of Ishamael. Get the theory you are arguing against right. So the odds against a pupil of Ishy getting it when Ishy still does are how small?

 

 

THANK YOU! Finally, a voice of reason. Taim, I do believe, is just Taim.

[gary0044187]

I have two arguments to add here.

1) I was just rereading the intro to ToM and Graendel commented on getting the small amount of true power she could wield from the dark lord, but in her first thought she mentioned the Nae'blis. Seems to me she tries to deny it to herself to make herself feel like she has a chance to take the position from moridin but implies that he allowed her to use some of it. If that is the case then it is my guess that moridin can gift it to his favorites. I would argue then that use of TP is not at all proof of being moridin but simply favored by moridin. That is assuming of course that his aura doesnt come from how menacing he is.

 

2) The change in height might actually be used as an argument in the pro taimidin camp as proof that jordan was trying to line the two up as similar size so that a future reveal will be more believable.

[Haran]

I don’t think Taim is Moridin by the simple fact that Taim seems to be Logains stepladder to glory while Moridin seems to be Rands last step. I mean come on, its Logains time to shine. One book left and Mins viewing has got to mean something other than just inheriting the title of M’Heal.

 

I got no proof

[Charred Knight]

To me Taim and Moridin simply lacked the same personality, where as Taim is a jerk at all times who does things like sneak peaks at Elayne getting naked, Moridin is a calm man who had a habit of making huge outburst while killing people, something that Taim has never really done. If Moridin was Taim you would think that their would be a tendency for his students to end up getting lit on fire, or having their body crushed instead of hits that may or may not kill. Also if Taim was Moridin than whose going to lead the shadow Asha;man during the war? No one has setup a replacement for Taim for Logain to have his big battle with. Simply put while Moridin is an evil counterpart to Rand, Taim is the foil to Logain.

 

Also if Moridin was Taim than why did he lead Bashere right to Rand when he could have killed the real Taim, gatewayed to the blight wait a few months than show up for the amnesty. Instead apparently Moridin lead one of the five great Generals to Rand's doorstep, Bashere becomes Rand's main General giving him a starting point for an excellent army.

[didymos]

I don’t think Taim is Moridin by the simple fact that Taim seems to be Logains stepladder to glory while Moridin seems to be Rands last step. I mean come on, its Logains time to shine. One book left and Mins viewing has got to mean something other than just inheriting the title of M’Heal.

 

You know, people tend to discount metatextual arguments like this, but they shouldn't. Clues can be found by thinking about story structures like that. Take the whole Asmodean thing, for instance: Graendal made her debut in tFoH and had two scenes in which she had dialogue, and yet, unlike every other Forsaken in the book, she never did anything else. She also wasn't set up as impersonating someone close to Rand, and none of the characters who were close to him had "I might be a Forsaken in disguise" hints dropped about them the way Taim did in LoC. So why was she in the book and why did she get as much author attention as she did? I'd never even really thought about that until after ToM, and I've never seen any discussion of it either. Maybe a few people brought it up, but I'd bet it was dismissed out of hand if they did.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I don’t think Taim is Moridin by the simple fact that Taim seems to be Logains stepladder to glory while Moridin seems to be Rands last step. I mean come on, its Logains time to shine. One book left and Mins viewing has got to mean something other than just inheriting the title of M’Heal.

 

You know, people tend to discount metatextual arguments like this, but they shouldn't. Clues can be found by thinking about story structures like that. Take the whole Asmodean thing, for instance: Graendal made her debut in tFoH and had two scenes in which she had dialogue, and yet, unlike every other Forsaken in the book, she never did anything else. She also wasn't set up as impersonating someone close to Rand, and none of the characters who were close to him had "I might be a Forsaken in disguise" hints dropped about them the way Taim did in LoC. So why was she in the book and why did she get as much author attention as she did? I'd never even really thought about that until after ToM, and I've never seen any discussion of it either. Maybe a few people brought it up, but I'd bet it was dismissed out of hand if they did.

 

The Fires of Heaven is when we really get to meet Sammael for the first time, too. He gets about the same screen time as Graendal during that book. Does about the same amount of nothing.

 

If absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, then it's not evidence of presence either. Screen time coupled with lack of apparent activity is definitive of nothing.

[Braden]

It more then insinuated that there is heavy Forsaken influence in the Black Tower by:

 

-Dreamspike being there (it was mentioned they are rare and Moridin had exactly two)

-Asha'man loyal to Rand and Logain seem to be being turned

-When the sisters first came to bond Asha'man Taim states "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule"

-Weak male channelers being felt both in Maradon battle and Perrin Battle

 

That being said I think Taim is a giant red herring and I believe it was stated Demandred is not in the Black Tower. So yes Moridin would be Taim but I think it would be more interesting if he wasn't. Demandred is likely behind these new forces that resemble Aiel.

[Mr Ares]

Also Mr Ares, I stand in awe of your Wheel of Time knowledge,

Thank you.

but here is a quote about Taim's Warder grace:

 

"He was tall, nearly as tall as Rand, with a hooked nose and dark eyes like augurs, a physically powerful man who moved with something of a Warder's deadly grace"

 

Winter's Heart Pg. 38

So, now all The Angry Druid has to prove is that Moridin also has this grace, that it wasn't present prior to ACoS, and everything else he has said.

 

 

You guys are all so gonna eat your words when Taim is revealed as Moridin in A Memory of Light.

No. If there's a good explanation, we'll go "Ah, why didn't you think of that?", and if there isn't we'll go "what the hell? Were you on crack, Sanderson? Write it properly."

 

He talks like a 2nd Ager

No. Second Agers speak the Old Tongue. Taim generally doesn't, and hasn't shown himself proficient. What you mean is he used a phrase also used by one of the Chosen.

There are 5 Forsaken left, and Cyndane, Moghedien, and Graendal are out. Demandred's been excluded by RJ, so Moridin's the only one left.

Yet Moridin also has a lot against him. Would you care to address it?

We see Asha'man 13x13ed, and some of them exhibit signs of accelerated training - not the usual Asha forcing, but the kind you'd need a time-warping vacuole like Moridin's to accomplish.

Actually, I had a different theory on that. I don't have time to check all the facts now (and someone might well disprove this before I am able), but my theory runs thusly: the stronger-than-they-should-be Asha'man are actually fully trained, full strength Dreadlords infiltrated into the ranks. They come in as new recruits, use only a fraction of their strength. They use more as time goes by, giving the appearance of gaining in strength while not actually doing so, but tend to do so much faster than actual new recruits.

[Sharaman]

I don’t think Taim is Moridin by the simple fact that Taim seems to be Logains stepladder to glory while Moridin seems to be Rands last step. I mean come on, its Logains time to shine. One book left and Mins viewing has got to mean something other than just inheriting the title of M’Heal.

 

You know, people tend to discount metatextual arguments like this, but they shouldn't. Clues can be found by thinking about story structures like that. Take the whole Asmodean thing, for instance: Graendal made her debut in tFoH and had two scenes in which she had dialogue, and yet, unlike every other Forsaken in the book, she never did anything else. She also wasn't set up as impersonating someone close to Rand, and none of the characters who were close to him had "I might be a Forsaken in disguise" hints dropped about them the way Taim did in LoC. So why was she in the book and why did she get as much author attention as she did? I'd never even really thought about that until after ToM, and I've never seen any discussion of it either. Maybe a few people brought it up, but I'd bet it was dismissed out of hand if they did.

 

The Fires of Heaven is when we really get to meet Sammael for the first time, too. He gets about the same screen time as Graendal during that book. Does about the same amount of nothing.

 

If absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, then it's not evidence of presence either. Screen time coupled with lack of apparent activity is definitive of nothing.

Actually you can't eliminate Sammael as Asmo's killer on the basis of the first five books - it's only later that he eliminates and the case for G get's stronger.

[didymos]

I don’t think Taim is Moridin by the simple fact that Taim seems to be Logains stepladder to glory while Moridin seems to be Rands last step. I mean come on, its Logains time to shine. One book left and Mins viewing has got to mean something other than just inheriting the title of M’Heal.

 

You know, people tend to discount metatextual arguments like this, but they shouldn't. Clues can be found by thinking about story structures like that. Take the whole Asmodean thing, for instance: Graendal made her debut in tFoH and had two scenes in which she had dialogue, and yet, unlike every other Forsaken in the book, she never did anything else. She also wasn't set up as impersonating someone close to Rand, and none of the characters who were close to him had "I might be a Forsaken in disguise" hints dropped about them the way Taim did in LoC. So why was she in the book and why did she get as much author attention as she did? I'd never even really thought about that until after ToM, and I've never seen any discussion of it either. Maybe a few people brought it up, but I'd bet it was dismissed out of hand if they did.

 

The Fires of Heaven is when we really get to meet Sammael for the first time, too. He gets about the same screen time as Graendal during that book. Does about the same amount of nothing.

 

If absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, then it's not evidence of presence either. Screen time coupled with lack of apparent activity is definitive of nothing.

 

By "does something", I mean "actually responsible for some of the events in the book". Sammael was responsible for a number of attacks in order to goad Rand into attacking him. Lanfear toyed with Rand, screwed with the plan by throwing out hints that Rahvin was the one to go after, and had the big brawl at the docks. Rahvin continued screwing with Andor and Morgase, acquired Alteima, and threw down with Rand. Asmodean played some tunes, provided some info and aid on occasion, and managed to get killed twice. Graendal was, apparently, responsible only for sitting around and chatting, and possibly hanging out in Arad Domon (Asmodean couldn't be sure).

 

I also never claimed this was definitive of anything. It's a type of evidence, and as such can have varying levels of strength and must be put together with other types of evidence. Barring something like "My name is Graendal. I shall kill you now, Asmodean", we have to take a bunch of little and much more ambiguous things and combine them to get answers, and typically they're simply likely rather than certain.

[smileyman]

Actually, I had a different theory on that. I don't have time to check all the facts now (and someone might well disprove this before I am able), but my theory runs thusly: the stronger-than-they-should-be Asha'man are actually fully trained, full strength Dreadlords infiltrated into the ranks. They come in as new recruits, use only a fraction of their strength. They use more as time goes by, giving the appearance of gaining in strength while not actually doing so, but tend to do so much faster than actual new recruits.

 

I think this actually makes the most sense.

[Alexandros]

Does it actually say anywhere in the books that male channelers can be turned by the 13x13 trick? I seem to recall Sheriam saying that the reason why channelers are vulnerable to it is because they've been trained to open themselves up to the Source which leaves them 'open' to being turned to the dark. Note though that men don't channel this way, they seize their side of the Power.

[Mr Ares]

Actually, I had a different theory on that. I don't have time to check all the facts now (and someone might well disprove this before I am able), but my theory runs thusly: the stronger-than-they-should-be Asha'man are actually fully trained, full strength Dreadlords infiltrated into the ranks. They come in as new recruits, use only a fraction of their strength. They use more as time goes by, giving the appearance of gaining in strength while not actually doing so, but tend to do so much faster than actual new recruits.

I think this actually makes the most sense.

On checking the book, I'd say this is still a viable theory in some cases, but not necessarily all - Kash appears to be a newcomer who became very strong very quickly, but Nensen was around in PoD, and seems only recently to have shot up in strength - his success is convincing more people to join the Taim camp. Nalaam doesn't specify whether it is all or most of the men taking Taim's lessons who learn too quickly. So, who knows?

 

 

Does it actually say anywhere in the books that male channelers can be turned by the 13x13 trick? I seem to recall Sheriam saying that the reason why channelers are vulnerable to it is because they've been trained to open themselves up to the Source which leaves them 'open' to being turned to the dark. Note though that men don't channel this way, they seize their side of the Power.

I don't recall it being specifically mentioned that it works on men, but nor do I recall it stating it only works on women. The phrase used is channelers.

[Cherubin]

Ok, aside from the Taim = (or not) Morodin topic.

How many male channelers are now in Taims camp? I know it was a smaller group before, but still more highly skilled, while now they have the majority. While we can conclude that Logains side includes

-at least 50 male channelers

& with 50 Aes Sedai and

- all of the Two Rivers Man,

- potentially he can sway the 'Rebel' Aes Sedai waiting outside. But I doubt 20 Aes Sedai will have much of an impact here

- The only useful thing for Aes Sedai in the battle against Ashaman (the 3 oaths..) is that they enable circles, Logain has already enough Aes Sedai to form circles including all the Ashaman, so I doubt Egewene will play a role in this battle

-I also doubt Rand can participate, since his playbook is already filled (meeting everyone, getting Avi pregnant, being seduced by Lanfear, submitting to Tuon, ..., not to forget dying in the last battle).

 

it is safe to assume that Taim has now

- probably 200 super loyal very strong male channeleres (some turned, some Darkfriends)

- 3 turned Aes Sedai

- Maybe 10-20 Black Aes Sedai, although I doubt they are in the Black Tower, and they cannot come quickly due to the Dreamspike

- probably 400-500 semi-loyal, politically allied channelers who are 'normal' in the power and could be swayed to Logains camp, but probably after the battle

 

As non-channeleres we have a lot of guards and the Band of the Dragon hanging around, whose loyality is unclear.

 

Ok, can anyone see a way, aside from somehow banning the male half of the power being used, in how this conflict can be resolved with 250 vs. 250 channelers fighting - and not leaving the whole area in a state resembling the surface of the moon? I mean, thanks to forming circles I still think Logain could get the upper hand, but I doubt many people and male channelers will be left standing for the last battle after this event.

[Sharaman]

It would have to be some fancy strike either made via TAR (where I think the BT is in general, short of expertise)

Or some sort of mega-circle and fancy shielding weaves employed followed by a physical assault on BT Ashaman, who are generally not good with weapons.

Or Taim seeing the odds stacking up and running for cover.

Agree that an all-out OP scrap would end in serious damage all round.

[Danvighar]

Crazy thought - because the Forsaken don't tell each other all their plans, one of them sends insane numbers of Shadowspawn to attack the Black Tower about the same time as the attack on Caemlyn. Due to the direction of the attack or whatever, Taim's forces take the brunt of the damage.

[Cirin]

Probably unlikely too, but this whole "Lord of the Grave" thing that the Dark One's got going for him has helped before. For all we know, he could be taking recruits with good potential in the One Power, and shoving some dead Dreadlord's soul (or something) into their bodies. Those soul replacement bodies he keeps scrounging up have to come from somewhere, right? That would explain the sudden, rapid learning curve. Of course, so would random mind control or compulsion... or even just a link. Asmodean mentions he could teach much, much faster if they had someone to link them.

 

Which is an interesting question in and of itself... where did all these replacement Forsaken bodies come from? Like Moridin, who looks a lot like Rand? Who knows what whacked out things they're doing in the Blight.

[didymos]

Which is an interesting question in and of itself... where did all these replacement Forsaken bodies come from?

 

Here:

 

TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003 to April 2004

Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

 

There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.

 

It's also stated in LoC that Osan'gar and Aran'gar's bodies were taken from the Borderlands.

[Toddler]

A theory about Taim based on the two below passages is that the Black freed him and then turned him. He has scince been under control of the shadow. This might explain his role as evil but not a true forsaken. As he has been turned himself he is gradually turning the Asha'man.

 

This para is Egwenn discussing what she saw in her riasing to acepted where dream Rand says the Dreadlords can turn him.

"She­ri­am sighed, glanced at the oth­er Aes Sedai again, then dropped her voice to a whis­per and spoke swift­ly. “This is some­thing known on­ly to a few, child, even in the Tow­er. You should not learn it now, if ev­er, but I will tell you. There is — a weak­ness in be­ing able to chan­nel. That we learn to open our­selves to the True Source means that we can be opened to oth­er things.” Eg­wene shud­dered. “Calm your­self, child. It is not so eas­ily done. It is a thing not done, so far as I know — Light send it has not been done! — since the Trol­loc Wars. It took thir­teen Dread­lords — Dark­friends who could chan­nel — weav­ing the flows through thir­teen Myrd­draal. You see? Not eas­ily done. There are no Dread­lords to­day. This is a se­cret of the Tow­er, child. If oth­ers knew, we could nev­er con­vince them they were safe. On­ly one who can chan­nel can be turned in this way. The weak­ness of our strength. Ev­ery­one else is as safe as a fortress; on­ly their own deeds and will can turn them to the Shad­ow.”

Dragon Reborn

 

 

Below is introgaiton of the Black sister caught at the end of the Dragon Reborn. Note she would eb bound by the Black Oaths so could not reveal the real truth.

"Joiya shrugged. “As you wish. Let me see. Dif­fer­ent words. The false Drag­on, Mazrim Taim, who was cap­tured in Sal­daea, can chan­nel with in­cred­ible strength. Per­haps as much as Rand al’Thor, or near­ly so, if the re­ports can be be­lieved. Be­fore he can be brought to Tar Val­on and gen­tled, Lian­drin means to break him free. He will be pro­claimed as the Drag­on Re­born, his name giv­en as Rand al’Thor, and then he will be set to de­struc­tion on such a scale as the world has not seen since the War of the Hun­dred Years."”

The Shadow Rising

[Viperswhip]

I think the big reason Taim hasn't turned the whole Black Tower yet is because the 13x13 trick likely consumes the Myrddraal.

 

We still have Elaida's foretelling to deal with, and just like most of her other foretellings, she was way off on the understanding. She took her foretelling and so did Alviarin to mean that Tarna would be successful. She did not know that it would mean Tarna, bound by Logain, along with a lot of other bound Aes Sedai, and those sworn to Rand who will be the sisters marching in her foretelling.

 

Edit...oh snap, it could also mean sisters bound by the Adam...from Avi's future.

[Cazajay]

There are very compelling counter arguments for the Taim= Moridin theory, I can see why some of us WoT fans believe he is just a New Age Dreadlord taught by a Forsaken/Channeller.

I like to weigh up the pros and cons of an argument before jumping onto the band wagon but so far there are more Pros for Taim being Moridin than there are Cons.

1) Ishmael required a new body after dying in Tear after being stabbed in the heart with Callandor. Has anyone never wondered whose body this once belonged to? Obviously the guy wasn't previously called Moridin so for all intents and purposes this guy used to be known in appearance to someone. The Dark One requires a body for Transmigration this body obviously must still be alive, one shudders to think about it but RJ stated "the body has to be stripped of it's occupants(former) memory and soul before the favoured soul can be transmigrated into it". Note the part about Soul that indicates the poor sod is still alive when the process is begun. We know he got Aran'gar and Osan'gar new bodies from the Borderlands. We also know from the BA partial confession in Tear to Moiraine and the girls that they had knowledge of a plan to free Mazrim Taim in the Borderlands for the purpose of ruining Rand's rep. It's possible that this was partially true but after Ishmael died the Dark One decided to use Taim instead for the Transmigration process.

However Rand as we know has seen both Moridin and Taim and hasn't connected them as being the same person he goes as far to think he had never seen this man before when he first encounters Moridin in Shadar Logoth. But for all we know this could be a small disguise as Moridin knows Rand knows Taim. A subtle change of the nose shape, cheek bones and the brow is all that is needed to alter a face beyond recognition. It's a stab in the dark with no proof I know...

Ooo and the coincidence with Rand seeing Moridin only in his head and not when he is being Taim could be explained simply as he only uses the TP when he needs to be Moridin, as the strange bond was

caused by the TP in the first place this stands to reason why Rand doesn't see Taim in his head. Again Iv no proof of this just paper thin theory.

 

2) Taim isn't constantly in the BT he comes and goes all the time on "recruiting" missions. He tends to disappear alot or gate away to wherever his "palace" is. He has plenty of time to play at Taim and be Moridin.

 

3) The conflicting orders to Kisman, it wasn't conflicting they both issued the order to kill however Moridin said it as kill him if you must, but bring me whatever is in his possession" this could be explained as he knew Kisman the DF would obey a Chosen and be fearful to keep any objects of power for himself whereas if Taim gave the order the possessions may not end up being handed over.

Or it's really more likely that Moridin is just following the orders "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" that applies to Darkfriend followers as well what better way to cause Chaos than to keep fellow supporters guessing as well as the enemy less chance of your plans being discovered. In the Great Hunt prologue Ishmael as Ba'alzamon told "Bors" , "some commands are too important to be known even by he who carries them out", says it all really.

Everyone tends to forget that Verin and Ishmael both said the DO cannot be understood as his wants are strange/alien to the wants of humans. He couldn't really give a crap he is toying with them all, torturing them slowly having fun, heck he is bored stupid, he is the opposite of the Creator he is basically for want of a word the Destroyer.

 

4) The sigil at Taim's Palace has been seen as sigils used by Sammael and Be'lal it is significant and cannot be dismissed so easily, I doubt a mere DF even a pupil of the Chosen would be so bold to use it so openly. However it could be used as a way of drawing DF's to you as they would see it and recognise it as a place ruled by the shadow. Secret Societies always have a sigil/symbol only known to those who know what to look for. Like Nynaeve and the Yellow Ajah warnings hanging from shops or houses symbolising a place of refuge for those who know the signs.

5) Taim being a pupil of Ishmael is very plausible he did after all try to recruit Rand in TEoTW before Rand was aware of what he was, quote from chapter 51 Against the Shadow "Fool! You will destroy yourself! You cannot wield it so, not yet! Not until I teach you!"

6) Osan'gar/Aginor was in the BT before being killed he could be and probably is responsible for what's happenned to Tarna and the others he was after all the genetisist who created the shadowspawn. Whatever he manifested there is possibly still being used.

7) The Darkness around Taim the description Elayne gave does sound like warping of the light and shadows surrounding his body, it's basically an aura that she described it only sounded different as it was Elayne's PoV she wasn't sure of what she was seeing. But the discription of he seemed to pull the shadows is what we see with Moridin and with Rand after their strange bond before he "cleansed" himself on Dragonmount.

8) Pevara's PoV of Taim in ToM chapter 53 Gateways is a little more revealing a bit of foreshadowing is employed "He had fire in his eyes, this Mazrim Taim." it's not the only time Iv read that Taim had flames in his eyes.

9) same PoV as point 8) above "And as you see, Taim said, walking with one hand folded-fingers making a fist- behind his back. With his other hand, he pointed toward a distant, part-finished wall of black stone." Unfortunately the PoV doesn't say if it's his left or right hand but you could say it's foreshadowing, that he is emulating Rand which Moridin begins to do through the weird TP bond, considering the hand is in a fist and behind his back. But then again it is an arrogant posture to take for someone wishing to discomfort Aes Sedai. You could also claim the Dragons on his coat sleeves is due to the bond and copying Rand, The bond it's like they swapped a piece of each others soul, Rand got a tiny bit of Evil morals and Moridin got a tiny bit of Good Morals. Perhaps the balefire OP and TP disrupted the weird Transmigration process used to keep Ishmael in the Moridin body.

[Viperswhip]

Oh, why do people think Ishy/Morodin would need the Ashaman to run around collecting artifacts for him. I thought it was weird that Graendal wondered where he got all those artifacts when she must know that he was free to roam quite regularly over the last 3000 years, including during the breaking itself.

[Rufae]

Why can't it be that Taim was originally good, even thought himself to be The Dragon Reborn. Then the sisters sent to sever him were Black Ajah. Instead of severing him, they use 13 mydraal and force him dark, then let him "escape". Now Taim is using the same method for others with the same 13 mydraal that turned him.

 

I think this possibility to be highly likely.

[Cazajay]

Why can't it be that Taim was originally good, even thought himself to be The Dragon Reborn. Then the sisters sent to sever him were Black Ajah. Instead of severing him, they use 13 mydraal and force him dark, then let him "escape". Now Taim is using the same method for others with the same 13 mydraal that turned him.

 

I think this possibility to be highly likely.

 

 

Not enough explanation as to how he knows so much about the OP since he only declared himself the Dragon Reborn less than 2 years prior to events in ToM. We first hear about him in The Great Hunt, then one book later he is testing other men for the spark and talking to Rand like he has been channelling safely for hundreds of years.