The Black Tower

[capuga]

I would like to add another piece of evidence to all of this that Taim is not Moridin. Rand has seen both Taim and Moridin, therefore for them to be the same person Moridin would have to be using a disguise. However, Rand begins to see Moridin's face when he seizes saidin. It is never mentioned that he sees Taim's face. Moridin would have to spend a fair amount of time in the Taim disguise to perform his duties at the Black Tower. It would be an awfully big coincedence that he is never in his Taim disguise any of the times that Rand happens to seize saidin.

 

While I'm not convinced Taim=Moridin myself, this one could always be written off as some effect of the link they have. I.e., that they'd always see through any Power-wrought disguise the other happened to be wearing.

 

True, but it is just another thing on a long list of inconsistencies that would have to be explained away to make the Taim=Moridin theory work. When you add all of these types of things together it just makes it very unlikely that Taim is Moridin.

[waffle]

why does Taim have to be someone else? You´ll give the poor man an inferiority complex.

[Tenesmus]

Has Androl's identity or past been discusssed? I got the impression while I was reading that he was much older than he let others believe. I briefly thought that he was Gaidal Cain, but not likely. He is someone of import though, right? Seems like he has "been there, done that, got ALL the damn T-shirts" tattooed on his ass. Who is this guy?

[didymos]

I would like to add another piece of evidence to all of this that Taim is not Moridin. Rand has seen both Taim and Moridin, therefore for them to be the same person Moridin would have to be using a disguise. However, Rand begins to see Moridin's face when he seizes saidin. It is never mentioned that he sees Taim's face. Moridin would have to spend a fair amount of time in the Taim disguise to perform his duties at the Black Tower. It would be an awfully big coincedence that he is never in his Taim disguise any of the times that Rand happens to seize saidin.

 

While I'm not convinced Taim=Moridin myself, this one could always be written off as some effect of the link they have. I.e., that they'd always see through any Power-wrought disguise the other happened to be wearing.

 

True, but it is just another thing on a long list of inconsistencies that would have to be explained away to make the Taim=Moridin theory work. When you add all of these types of things together it just makes it very unlikely that Taim is Moridin.

 

Yeah, agreed: the fact that it requires an additional assumption is a mark against the idea. I'm just saying we can't be certain the disguise thing is a problem.

[didymos]

Has Androl's identity or past been discusssed? I got the impression while I was reading that he was much older than he let others believe. I briefly thought that he was Gaidal Cain, but not likely. He is someone of import though, right? Seems like he has "been there, done that, got ALL the damn T-shirts" tattooed on his ass. Who is this guy?

 

He's just an Asha'man with a Talent for gateways who's had some interesting travels of the mundane, non-OP variety. He first appeared in WH, as one of Logain's group.

 

As for him being Gaidal: not just unlikely. Impossible. Gaidal is currently an infant. At best, he might have recently learned to walk.

[Jillain Sanche]

I'm convinced the people at the Black Tower were Mindtrap victims. The whole "soulless" symptom matches what we know about crushed Mindtraps: the person's soul is basically severed from the body and they end up watching themselves carry out their master's orders. Mog/Semi also commented that they did this to do this to many AoL channelers.

 

I am thinking that the method by which Taim is having asha'man and aes sedai turned may well be the biggest point of speculation in this next year leading up to publication of the final book.

We know Tarna and Mezar were turned. We did not "witness" the how it was done. But their personalities do seem altered and twisted, from the text in each case.

The answer to this and how it transpires that Taim is taken down will be hotly anticipated by us all!

 

Know what I would like to see? Androl getting bonded by Pevara, then linking and using added strength to break through the dreamspike. If Androl could almost get a weave to form, with him being as weak as he was, what would happen if he was linked with an AS?

 

Oh, sweet foreshadowing. Pevara opened the door and let Androl in. Yeah, I think she'll bond him! Don't you?

[Guest Buranri]

Waiiiiiit. What happened to Tarna? I completely missed that. Urgh, need to reread already -_-

[Cyf]

Waiiiiiit. What happened to Tarna? I completely missed that. Urgh, need to reread already -_-

 

When Tarna returned and spoke to Pevara, she was very cold and her eyes 'soulless', almost an automaton. People have speculated that this is a result of the 13x13 Turning or a result of a soultrap that was broken.

 

I'm hoping whatever it was can be fixed. I really liked Tarna. :)

[Sharaman]

Can't be mindtraps due to the logistics and the symptoms.

Mindtraps can only be done at SG and with a specific device.

You'd need 100s of devices and GLoD might get a little irritated at the constant Gating in and him being asked to preside over Group Therapy sessions.

He does have other things to do after all.

Second, a normal MT has no apparent symptoms - and there's no reason why everyone of them would be crushed on principle.

Can't remember if Moggy discussed it but the victim of a crushed MT might find channeling impossible - it requires a soul.

Much easier to just collect the homeless BA and call in 13 Fades and DIY in the BT itself.

(I'm assuming saidin channelers cannot directly link to Fades since Fades are also male. If saidin guys can link to Fades, then it's really easy.)

[miyori]

1) Can't be mindtraps due to the logistics and the symptoms.

2) Mindtraps can only be done at SG and with a specific device.

3) You'd need 100s of devices and GLoD might get a little irritated at the constant Gating in and him being asked to preside over Group Therapy sessions.

4) He does have other things to do after all.

5) Second, a normal MT has no apparent symptoms - and there's no reason why everyone of them would be crushed on principle.

6) Can't remember if Moggy discussed it but the victim of a crushed MT might find channeling impossible - it requires a soul.

7) Much easier to just collect the homeless BA and call in 13 Fades and DIY in the BT itself.

 

There seems to be some disagreement over the use of One Power shenanigans to convert people. This shouldn't be a point of contention, as multiple RJ comments about human history and psychology make clear that uninformed populations are easily manipulated. Most of the BT is just playing its role in a totalitarian machine--the role of the mildly moral but frightened cog. The BT hasn't even progressed to Nazi proportions yet: If somehow Taim mobilized the entire BT to go attack the Light forces, then you might have a case for mass conversion, but the Shadow's strategy is clearly behind-the-scenes abuse of their position. Look at how much damage Weiramon of all people did. Taim is doing exponentially more than that.

 

In short, the burden of proof is on the wrong shoulders; the null hypothesis should be the negative, not the positive. You have to prove that all those people were 13x13ed when there is a more reasonable, equally as effective hypothesis that they're just victims of constrained information and an oppressive totalitarian regime--i.e. nobody has done anything to anyone other than Mezar and Tarna.

 

In response to your statements:

1) Logistics aren't relevant, we only know of 2 people firsthand who show the said symptoms (soullessness). And both are important enough to the Light for Taim to pull out the big guns. The symptoms do match crushed mind traps, which is why you see dwn and myself championing this argument.

2&3) No, there is no evidence of One Power shenanigans in any of the other BT inhabitants. The BT is heavily modeled after a corrupt totalitarian government and that explains pretty much everything other than Tarna and Mezar. If Moridin had two incredibly rare dream spikes, he most certainly has many more cour'souvra.

4) Two things: the Dark One had no problem mindtrapping people in the midst of the War of Power in the AoL, so why would he have a problem with mindtrapping important third-agers? Also, never invoke the "Dark One has better things to do" argument, as you run afoul of guessing authorial intention. Refer to Jordan's "The Dark One's intentions and plans are beyond your comprehension" quotes.

5) Well seeing as how there are only two to crush, and Mezar at least would probably be heroic enough to warn the Logain faction even with a stage 1 mindtrap, not crushing the traps makes no sense.

6) There was no indication of the sort in the books of that fact. The soul of the person is there--in fact, the soul will still see through its eyes--it just has no control over its body. I would guess the body/brain would just puppet the soul if needed to channel.

7) Alert every channeler anywhere nearby that something very odd was going on? Even if the BA channelers could invert horribly complex and foreign weaves, I doubt the amount of power used in a 13x13 is trivial. If you accept that they would have to move them out of the BT, then it may as well be Shayol Ghul. I mean where else would you find scores of Myrdraal hanging out.

[dwn]

There are some major logistical problems with the 13x13 trick:

 

Gathering the Myrddraal isn't trivial because they can't use gateways, most waygates are guarded or blocked, and portal stones are quite rare. They do have that shadow-jumping ability, but we don't have much information on its capabilities or limits.

 

The Myrddraal need to be warded lest they be detected by channellers and warders in the area.

 

The Myrddraal need to be housed and fed.

 

Miyori already mentioned the channelling problem. Linked or not, 13 men and/or women channelling together with any frequency is very likely to get noticed. Any women channelling within Taim's palace will definitely draw attention.

 

 

Now the 13x13 trick has been used in the past, most assuredly during the Trolloc Wars. Yet during that time Shadowspawn hordes lead by Dreadlords were everywhere, which eliminates all the problems outlined above. More importantly, without access to Travelling or Skimming, taking a prisoner to Shayol Ghul for mindtrapping would have been a ridiculous notion.

 

-- dwn

[MattTaz]

Just a hopeful wish:

 

Be nice if Logain was looking for a Far Madding type of object which cuts the One Power off.

 

His men would use their sword training to cut Taim's men up.

 

One can wish :)

[Sharaman]

There are some major logistical problems with the 13x13 trick:

 

Gathering the Myrddraal isn't trivial because they can't use gateways, most waygates are guarded or blocked, and portal stones are quite rare. They do have that shadow-jumping ability, but we don't have much information on its capabilities or limits.

 

The Myrddraal need to be warded lest they be detected by channellers and warders in the area.

 

The Myrddraal need to be housed and fed.

 

Miyori already mentioned the channelling problem. Linked or not, 13 men and/or women channelling together with any frequency is very likely to get noticed. Any women channelling within Taim's palace will definitely draw attention.

 

 

Now the 13x13 trick has been used in the past, most assuredly during the Trolloc Wars. Yet during that time Shadowspawn hordes lead by Dreadlords were everywhere, which eliminates all the problems outlined above. More importantly, without access to Travelling or Skimming, taking a prisoner to Shayol Ghul for mindtrapping would have been a ridiculous notion.

 

-- dwn

 

There are 1000s of Fades available across dozens of dispersed locations.

Ditto hundreds of DF channelers.

The 13x13 technique is also widely known (it's mentioned by BA in Tear as well as by Sheriam)

The turning could therefore, be carried out anywhere convenient for Travellers.

We also know that 13x13 doesn't damage mental faculties, just brings out the all the nastiness in a person

Very few assumptions required to theorise 13x13 turning has happened, give what we see in the Tower.

 

Opposed to that, we don't even know that more mindtraps exist.

We may guess they do, but we don't know.

Mindtrapping can also only be done in one specific location, with the specific help of one specific entity.

Much less convenient than 13x13.

If it is mindtrapping, it is a crushed mindtrap which also seems wasteful.

Moggy's description of how a crushed mindtrap affects the victim could fit what we see.

But the helpless automaton business and the severing of the soul makes it appear very likely that channeling ability would also be lost.

You need the soul to channel.

That hasn't happened - or at least, Pevara and the AM don't notice it, if it has.

 

On Balance, 13x13 seems much more likely.

[didymos]

But the helpless automaton business and the severing of the soul makes it appear very likely that channeling ability would also be lost.

 

Where'd you get the idea that the mindtrap severs the soul? The books don't say that. If anything, I'd say a mindtrap is more like a really, really good a'dam: it removes any voluntary control and the holder of the trap can make you do anything they want without having to deal with any of that clumsy conditioning and punishment, but you're still in there and your soul is still in there.

 

ETA: That'd actually be a good question to ask Brandon: if you break a mindtrap, can the trapped person be made to channel?

[Byzantine279]

It seems more like the Domination Band, didymos.

[WhiskyJack]

Am I the only one who doesn't care what happened to these people as long as something did? But then lot of were serious about "who killed Asmo" thread too;)

[didymos]

It seems more like the Domination Band, didymos.

 

Well, the Domination Band really is a type of a'dam, but yeah, good call: the amount of control it gives is much more like what's said of mindtraps. A broken mindtrap goes that extra mile though: you're just screwed until someone kills you or you die of old age, and there's none of that pesky TP-vulnerability or that thing where the guy wearing the DB collar starts gaining control over the leash holders over time.

[dwn]

There are some major logistical problems with the 13x13 trick:

 

Gathering the Myrddraal isn't trivial because they can't use gateways, most waygates are guarded or blocked, and portal stones are quite rare. They do have that shadow-jumping ability, but we don't have much information on its capabilities or limits.

 

The Myrddraal need to be warded lest they be detected by channellers and warders in the area.

 

The Myrddraal need to be housed and fed.

 

Miyori already mentioned the channelling problem. Linked or not, 13 men and/or women channelling together with any frequency is very likely to get noticed. Any women channelling within Taim's palace will definitely draw attention.

 

 

Now the 13x13 trick has been used in the past, most assuredly during the Trolloc Wars. Yet during that time Shadowspawn hordes lead by Dreadlords were everywhere, which eliminates all the problems outlined above. More importantly, without access to Travelling or Skimming, taking a prisoner to Shayol Ghul for mindtrapping would have been a ridiculous notion.

 

-- dwn

 

There are 1000s of Fades available across dozens of dispersed locations.

Ditto hundreds of DF channelers.

The 13x13 technique is also widely known (it's mentioned by BA in Tear as well as by Sheriam)

The turning could therefore, be carried out anywhere convenient for Travellers.

We also know that 13x13 doesn't damage mental faculties, just brings out the all the nastiness in a person

Very few assumptions required to theorise 13x13 turning has happened, give what we see in the Tower.

 

Opposed to that, we don't even know that more mindtraps exist.

We may guess they do, but we don't know.

Mindtrapping can also only be done in one specific location, with the specific help of one specific entity.

Much less convenient than 13x13.

If it is mindtrapping, it is a crushed mindtrap which also seems wasteful.

Moggy's description of how a crushed mindtrap affects the victim could fit what we see.

But the helpless automaton business and the severing of the soul makes it appear very likely that channeling ability would also be lost.

You need the soul to channel.

That hasn't happened - or at least, Pevara and the AM don't notice it, if it has.

 

On Balance, 13x13 seems much more likely.

 

My point is that the primary argument people have in support of the 13x13 trick being used in the Black Tower is that it's allegedly so much easier than using mindtraps. Yet we have only a vague description of the process, a quote from RJ saying it's logistically difficult to set up, and another quote from RJ (re. the personality darkening) that doesn't fit with the description of Tarna and Mezar.

 

On the other hand, we have a detailed description of a mindtrap and it's effects via Moghedion. It's not a trivial thing, but it's not so convoluted that it couldn't have been used to tame a small number of irritants in the Black Tower. We also know that the process was not uncommon in the AoL, and the severed soul effect of the final 'broken' stage matches the not-quite-alive, cold-eyed effect we're given.

 

I suspect the real reason some want it to be the 13x13 trick is that we've been waiting nearly 20 years for it to be shown.

 

-- dwn

[Sharaman]

But the helpless automaton business and the severing of the soul makes it appear very likely that channeling ability would also be lost.

 

Where'd you get the idea that the mindtrap severs the soul? The books don't say that. If anything, I'd say a mindtrap is more like a really, really good a'dam: it removes any voluntary control and the holder of the trap can make you do anything they want without having to deal with any of that clumsy conditioning and punishment, but you're still in there and your soul is still in there.

 

ETA: That'd actually be a good question to ask Brandon: if you break a mindtrap, can the trapped person be made to channel?

 

 

Breaking a mindtrap did not require much more pressure than he was using. She could be on the other side of the world or farther, and it would not matter

a hair. The part of her that was her would be separated; she would still see with her eyes and hear with her ears,

taste what crossed her tongue and feel what touched her, but helpless within an automaton that was utterly

obedient to whoever held the cour'-souvra. Whether or not there was any way to get free of it, a mindtrap was

just what its name implied.

[miyori]

Breaking a mindtrap did not require much more pressure than he was using. She could be on the other side of the world or farther, and it would not matter a hair. The part of her that was her would be separated; she would still see with her eyes and hear with her ears, taste what crossed her tongue and feel what touched her, but helpless within an automaton that was utterly obedient to whoever held the cour'-souvra. Whether or not there was any way to get free of it, a mindtrap was just what its name implied.

 

Separated from what? From the body or from control of the body? The rest of the passage indicates the soul is still there in the body, because she would personally experience everything through her body (sight, sound, taste). The soul is just "helpless within an automaton". In short, the soul is still there to be channeled through.

 

Supposing I read everything wrong and they can't channel, mind traps would still fit because we didn't see any hint of Tarna or Mezar channeling. I don't have the book with me at the moment, if anyone wants to fact-check that.

[GusE]

Mindtraps would not explain what is going on IMO.

ACoS ch 30 Moghedien POV: "Moridin's instructions had been explicit, the price of disobedience made excruciantingly clear. But a slight delay would not hurt. Not if he never learned of it, anyway."

The description of people at the BT seems to fit the 13x13 theory a lot better. Some say logistics etc is a problem, well thats why Taim only raised his "real" friends from the start and it has taken them until recently to get things really rolling.

[WhiskyJack]

People get over it. Those people are screwed and that's all you need to know about it. Discussing the nuances will do nothing. Does it matter really how Tarna got screwed? She did and that's about it.

[Sharaman]

Breaking a mindtrap did not require much more pressure than he was using. She could be on the other side of the world or farther, and it would not matter a hair. The part of her that was her would be separated; she would still see with her eyes and hear with her ears, taste what crossed her tongue and feel what touched her, but helpless within an automaton that was utterly obedient to whoever held the cour'-souvra. Whether or not there was any way to get free of it, a mindtrap was just what its name implied.

 

Separated from what? From the body or from control of the body? The rest of the passage indicates the soul is still there in the body, because she would personally experience everything through her body (sight, sound, taste). The soul is just "helpless within an automaton". In short, the soul is still there to be channeled through.

 

Supposing I read everything wrong and they can't channel, mind traps would still fit because we didn't see any hint of Tarna or Mezar channeling. I don't have the book with me at the moment, if anyone wants to fact-check that.

I don't think the soul can lose connection / control of the body and still leave a body capable of channeling.

A gray man also experiences everything and has similar motor control while having its soul severed.

Pevara would have noticed the loss of channeling ability in Tarna.

[didymos]

Mindtraps would not explain what is going on IMO.

ACoS ch 30 Moghedien POV: "Moridin's instructions had been explicit, the price of disobedience made excruciantingly clear. But a slight delay would not hurt. Not if he never learned of it, anyway."

 

 

That bit with Moghedien doesn't apply. Her mindtrap hasn't been broken. You have to break them to get the perpetual puppet effect.

[didymos]

I don't think the soul can lose connection / control of the body and still leave a body capable of channeling.

 

Alright. But you don't know that, so...

 

A gray man also experiences everything and has similar motor control while having its soul severed.

 

And a gray man is not the same thing as someone who's been mindtrapped. And their souls are not "severed", or I assume they're not because it's not exactly clear what you mean by "severed". Anyway, they're removed completely. Gone. Hence the term "Soulless". Gray Men are also autonomous, not automatons. And again: it is nowhere stated that breaking a mindtrap severs the soul. Or removes it entirely. Souls are never even mentioned in any of the material about mindtraps.

 

Pevara would have noticed the loss of channeling ability in Tarna.

 

True. Now, all you have to do is prove that breaking a mindtrap results in a loss of channeling ability.