Discuss Aviendha's Arc

[Barid Bel Medar]

To get to the basics of the Avi visions, it seems pretty much impossible for it to happen. It is such a simple (seemingly) thing to fix. 1 would be Avi not having children with Rand. 2. include Aiel into the Dragons peace.

 

Sooooo many simple actions could fix it, that I see there is no way for it to come true after it has been seen if Avi takes action.

 

Of course, I suppose that if it is the will of the Pattern, it would happen anyway, so in that case, cant really blame seanchan or aiel.

 

Related subject, I am not sure if this has been brought up, but does anyone else think that the vision Avi saw wasnt nearly as bad as it looked. We only see the Aiel's misfortune, and we know that it was their own fault for starting the war in the first place, so they kinda got what was comming. Apart from the leashed channelers of course, its been established that the Seanchan rule is peaceful.

 

So would it really be that bad? You have to admit that the Black and White Towers have really caused alot of chaos and meddled in alot of crap. Woudl it really be THAT terrible for channelers to be leashed for the sake of worldwide peace, instead of the constant war that the westlands face at the moment.

 

I am not saying that I like the future in Avi's vision, of course I would rather it be changed to have a happier ending, but I just think that it wasnt really a "post apocalypse" type world liike we see it as in the vision.

[Jeangray]

Apart from the leashed channelers of course, its been established that the Seanchan rule is peaceful.

 

And apart from all other hereditary slaves, which a good chunk of Randlandians will become. And apart from the secret police that can seize and torture you to death. And apart from informers who might give said police reason to do it to you if you dare to voice thoughts that don't toe the line. And apart from the High Blood scheming and pretty frequent rebellions that result from it and cost ten thousands of deaths. Etc, etc. Well, I guess that society in "1984" was also stable, orderly and peaceful from this point of view...

[Owayn The Traveller]

Yeah the Seanchan aren't nice. Why do people reckon it would be nice under their rule? There's no freedom with them. You can be property or a soldier or whatever is picked for you. Phaw! I rather live in Mordor.

[1eejit]

I tend to take every fortelling/vision/dream etc for post-Last Battle with a big pinch of salt. Fain is going to play a part in TGD and as RJ said he is a free agent, not part of the pattern's weaving. He can change it all imo.

[Moon Sedai]

I think that the Aiel in the Post-LB age should be charged with keeping the Dragon's Peace, or whatever it is called.

 

I'm thinking this based on how Rand gave Rhuarc charge of bringing Peace to Arad Doman, and how Rhuarc helped Berelain in the running of Cairhein.

 

And the purpose of the glass towers future telling would be to tell the new Wise Ones/Clan Chiefs (and perhaps the Dragon Blooded, i think they called the new Male Aiel channelers) the price of failure to KEEP the dragon's peace.

 

Otherwise, the future sucks.

 

Why go through that whole story to have everything go to hell in a handful of generations? |

To have the WT fall, presumably either during Egwene's time or in the amyrlin after [unless i did timeline wrong]

[GusE]

I think that the Aiel must go back to the Way of the Leaf, and with the aid of the Song and Rand's new Green Man abilities (his applegrowing works even better than the old seed singing) restore the nature of randland. Maybe even sing the pattern whole over the bore.

 

When it comes to Seanchan I agree with the idea of the DO having plans involving them for potential future TGs, and that the "false" prophecy of the Dragon bowing before the crystal throne must not come to pass. After TGS I thought: no problemo, Rand 2.0 will have no problem bowing before the Empress (may she channel forever (i mean Mat married to a channeling Empress would be so fun9) to get their aid. But now I think the binding must be done without any bowing.

[nolirion]

Yeah the Seanchan aren't nice. Why do people reckon it would be nice under their rule? There's no freedom with them. You can be property or a soldier or whatever is picked for you. Phaw! I rather live in Mordor.

Hum i do not agree , for simple folk and even some channeler who does not have the spark life is good , their culture have obligation and right but that a choice .

The whole problem is that their prosperity is fund on slavery and that just about it, slavery is not right .

And like i said before Seanchan way open a path where the DO would win .

[Owayn The Traveller]

Yeah the Seanchan aren't nice. Why do people reckon it would be nice under their rule? There's no freedom with them. You can be property or a soldier or whatever is picked for you. Phaw! I rather live in Mordor.

Hum i do not agree , for simple folk and even some channeler who does not have the spark life is good , their culture have obligation and right but that a choice .

The whole problem is that their prosperity is fund on slavery and that just about it, slavery is not right .

And like i said before Seanchan way open a path where the DO would win .

 

There isn't any choice with the Seanchan. If I'm not mistaken a character from Seanchan revealed before that their career path is chosen for them and the only way to get real advancement is through miltary exploits. I'm not claiming the system in Randland is perfect but it is better. The Seanchan empire doesn't provide stability either, there has been mentions of numerous revolts and conflicts.

[Sentinel78]

Anyone else notice that these flash-forwards seems to give evidence for the Rand-Moridin body-switching theory? Some of Rand and Avi's kids have black hair, which the POV remarks come "from the wetlander side." While Rand is half Mantear, the Andoran royals have essentially Aiel coloring...hard to think black hair would come from that genetic background. Moridin's current body, on the other hand...also hard to imagine Rand actually dying in the Last Battle if he does end up switching bodies with Moridin, so where is he in the flash-forwards?

 

Tleilax - awesome catch. I just caught that on my second read-through and, as a long-time body-swap believer, jumped all over it, from top-left of Page 732:

 

Though the four siblings were quadruplets, they looked very dissimilar. Alarch took more after their wetlander side, and had dark hair.

 

As we know, Rand has red hair and is merging with Moridin who has black hair. This makes perfect sense in conjunction with Min's viewing that there was something 'odd' about Rand's children with Aviendha, i.e., they are not Rand's children genetically, and also solves the riddle of Rand dying but still living. This is a BIG body-swap clue.

 

Further, this can be directly contrasted with Rand/Elayne's granddaughter, Queen Talana, from Page 728:

 

Queen Talana was a middle-aged woman with deep, lustrous red hair.

 

Elayne's children by the Dragon are Rand's genetically, and have RED hair. Red hair on Elayne's children is probably due to Rand's genes, and the suggestion that dark-hair on Aviendha's children is from their father is the body-swap clue.

 

As far as 'where' he is, I'd imagine he'd go into seclusion in the Two Rivers somewhere. He wouldn't want to sit around and be worshipped as a Living God or anything. Alternatively, he could follow the transmigrated-soul tradition of simply taking a new name and assuming a different identity (for a similar reason). More worrisome is where Aviendha and Elayne are, given that they should have lived for hundreds of years past the Last Battle and are clearly not in their expected positions of authority...

[FetFnask]

Great arc! Very well done by RJ/BS.

 

Here's my take on it, both a summary and my interpretations (in chronological order, not in book order):

 

---

 

Year 0 After Tarmon Gaidon -

Last Battle is won. Many of our heroes die? Nothing specific is said, but we see no reference to anyone except Aviendha being alive after TG.

 

Year 17 ATG -

Padra, Rands daughter is a Maiden of the Spear, she and her siblings has a new type of constant connection to the Power. Very powerful.

 

She kills Seanchan amd then Travels to the Aiel camp in Arad Doman.

They have stayed there for almost a decade. It's very big and probably the beginning of a permanent settlement.

 

She is shown deference by other Aiel and Wise Ones and Chiefs listens to hers and her siblings advice and allows them to channel without being part of them (not very Aiel like imo).

 

Padra visits Ronams tent (he is the son of Rhuarc) where the clan chiefs and her siblings are gathered. No Wise Ones, which I think is quite significant.

 

She reports that teh Seanchan she killed earlier were part of a patrol. That seems to trouble at least some of the Aiel in attendance.

 

Tavalad (Clan Chief of the Goshien) says "It is not against the Dragon's Peace for them to enter Arad Doman."

 

To me, this means that the Aiel are the aggressors as far as we know right now.

Padra retorts by saying that the Aiel are not part of the Dragon's Peace and thus it is not wrong for them to kill Seanchan if they get too close. Several of the others nods at this and her brother, Janduin, seems pleased that she has killed two Seanchan with her spears.

 

The meeting begins and Alalved of the Tomanelle says that the spears grow restless. That they grow fat in the lush lands, tending crops. That is not the Aiel way.

 

This is the heart of the comming conflict in my opinion. Idle Aiel (Aidel?) with no enemy, no purpose. The main reason this is happening seems to be Rand. The Dragon's Peace excluded the Aiel, but Rand seemingly did not resolve what to do with them. Did he die in the LB without doing this? Did he try but fail? Either way, we now have a problem.

 

Talavad seems to want peace, or at least he tries to see what Rand meant with the peace.

 

They talk about what the Aiel should do now, they all agree that they grow soft in the Wetlands and that returing to the Waste seems pointless. They have begun fighting eachother again according to Ronam. It is their nature he says. Is it though? They followed the Way of the Leaf before, then that was their nature. Their problem now is their apparent inability to change, to adapt. They say that their ancient toh is payed after the Last Battle. I do not agree. More on that later.

 

They talk about the Seanchan and the captive channelers they keep. Apparently the Seanchan will not agree to release them. Tuon is dead, apparently Rhuarc said she was honourable and that they came close to an agreement. The new Empress is not the same. They all jump on this. They want to fight the Seanchan. They need a fight, any fight, to keep to the old ways. Very wrong in my opinion.

 

They argue that the Dragon's Peace will not hold much longer anyway, nations are already at eachothers throats. Why not attack then? To me, it seems like they are looking for excuses to fight the Seanchan.

 

Only Darvin of the Reyn and Tavalad of the Goshien does not seem convinced.

The Dragons's children are asked what they think.

Marinna, a Wise One apprentice, says that they must reclaim the Aiel captives.

Alarch defers to his brother Janduin.

Janduin says that the Aiel needs a purpose.

Padra says that the Seanchan are their enemies.

 

That settles it. The Aiel goes to war. As aggressors.

 

The last sentence is weird:

"The Aiel would ride to war again. And there would be much honor in it."

 

First, "ride"? Slip by BS or on purpose? Have the Aiel of the Three-fold Land fallen that far? Second, much honor? I think not.

 

 

---

Year 57+ ATG

Oncala, Maiden of the Spear and decendant of Rand and Avi meets in Caemlyn with Queen Tadala of Andor, decendant of Rand and Elayne. Oncala has a banner of the Dragon, showing her lineage. Ji'e'toh now has given way to wetlander tradition it seems.

Perhaps Oncala is the grandchild of one of the quadruplets.

 

Rhuidean is under siege from the Seanchan.

The battle lines between the Aiel and the Seanchan are almost unchanged since the Last Battle. A stalemate that Oncala wants to remedy. The Aiel has realized that they cannor win against the Seanchan without the wetlanders.

It also seems that she has plans on conquering the rest of the the Wetlands after the Seanchan is defeated.

 

Oncala shows Tadala papers that have been taken from the Palace. They show plans for attack on all the nations, including Andor. What Oncala does not say is that they are contingency plans if the Seanchan should be attacked. A Lie of Omission, but still a lie. Not Aiel like at all.

 

Oncala says that the Seanchan does not care about the Dragon's Peace, that they are invaders who forced him to bow to their empress. This might be true or a distortion of fact almost 60 years after the event.

 

An interesting thing about the papers is that the Two Rivers is mentioned seperate from Andor. Also, what is the Pact of the Griffin? The Court of the Sun is Cairihen, also separate from Andor.

 

---

Year 100+ ATG?

Ladalin, Wise One of the Taardad, is the one of the last of the Dragons lineage. The other three lines have been killed off (the lines of the quadruplets i guess). The old Aiel ways are almost gone, but I can see more honor in them now. Being defeated and broken lends little room for pride I guess.

 

Ladalin was a Maiden before she became a Wise One. She fought around Tear. IT's looking like the Aiel are losing. Three Clan Chiefs and two Wise ones is all that is left of the Council of Twenty-Two. I wonder about that... 12 clans, one chief and one Wise One from each makes 24. But later they speak of a broken clan, not tha Shaido I'd say. Perhaps one of the clans broke early on and the remaining 11 created the Council?

 

The White Tower has fallen. The Aiel are pushed "all the way to these cursed mountains". I take that as the Spine of the World. The Shiande and the Daryne are no more.

 

They seem to realize that the Dragon wwanted peace and that they sinned against him. They want to retreat into the Three-fold land.

 

Wise Ones and Dragon Blooded are said to be channelers. Dragon Blooded caould be male channelers or perhaps the decendants of the quadruplets.

 

The turning point in the war was when the other nations entered on the Aiel side. The Seanchan culled their populations for more channelers.

 

The Black Tower still fight on although their fortress fell years ago.

 

---

 

Tava, 13 years old. The hold she lives in, somewhare in teh earstern parts of the waste burns. Attacked by Seanchan. They have tried to keep to the old ways, to ji'e'toh, but whenever they gather, the Seanchan attack. People are giving up.

 

The Seanchan have new weapons, they make hissing sounds when they fired. Doesn't sound like gun powder. They shoot invisible shots. A bullet then. Some type of ter'angreal? Pneumatic?

 

Her father is clean shaven as the old traditions dictated. I assume they mean the face.

Her father also wears caidin'sor. Most do not because it shows that they are Aiel, something that means death.

 

A sword means bad luck. Tava does not know why. They cannot rebuild east. The Raven Empire (Seanchan) has sent word to the Far Ones (Shara?) and they hunt the Aiel on the eastern border. People in the hold scatter. They say they are no clan anymore. They can survive better on their own.

 

This is where the Aiel finally die as a people. They give up their identity.

 

---

Norlesh, grand daughter of Tava.

She and her family is in an Outlander village. I think this means, not-Waste-village. The Outlanders want ore. They have lights without candles (electricity?) and wagons that move without horses (trains/cars?).

 

The traders seem to be different to other Outlanders. More rugged. The others have fine silks, delicate features and call themselves Illuminated Ones (light or meaning enlightened?).

 

They try to sell ore to the Outlanders, but they will not have anything to do with Aiel.

The Raven Empress forbids it. The Aiel have been made pariah.

 

They give up. They are broken.

 

---

 

Malidra, 18 years old.

Sneaks up on Lightmakers. I think the lightmakers are just people with the ability to make light. Artificial or fire, doesn't matter. Malidra and her likes cannot.

 

They Aiel are little more than animals now. Following the Lightmakes around, eating their waste.

 

The Lightmakes are building a railroad through the waste. Tehy have glowing orbs for light and the hissing sticks. Malidra gets shot and dies. No memory of being Aiel is left. The Lightmakes still call them Aiel though.

 

---

 

How could all this have been avoided? Two things seems to be the root of this. Idle Aiel (Aidel) that are not bound by the Dragon's Peace. A Seanchan that is not dealt with properly.

 

How should Rand handle the Aiel then? It is implied that they have no more toh after fighting the Last Battle. This is wrong, I think. The toh comes from taking up the spears and giving up the task given to them by the Aes Sedai. Fighting in the Last Battle is part of paying for that, giving up the spears is the other part. Returning to the Way of the Leaf is the only way to give the Aiel a purpose, an ancient purpose, and keep ji'e'toh at the same time. Being excluded by the Dragon's Peace would be irrelevant. Can Rand make them give up the spears? Perhaps, but it is now obvious that this is Aviendhas task.

 

What Rand needs to do, with help from Mat, is to not kneel before Tuon and instead make her see that leashing women is wrong. Making the Seanchan see that sul'dam are channelers will bring chaos to their homeland. Tuon, and Mat, will have to go back and try to rebuild. This is essential. A Seanchan with damane will try to conquer the world, sooner or later. They are probably moving against Shara in the last (first) of Aviendhas visions.

 

That is what I believe.

 

 

 

Wow, I worked on this in chunks, reading in chronological order, one viewing at a time. Writing a summary and some opinions. Didn't mean for it to be this long. :-)

 

tl;dr

[Elend]

Yeah the Seanchan aren't nice. Why do people reckon it would be nice under their rule? There's no freedom with them. You can be property or a soldier or whatever is picked for you. Phaw! I rather live in Mordor.

Hum i do not agree , for simple folk and even some channeler who does not have the spark life is good , their culture have obligation and right but that a choice .

The whole problem is that their prosperity is fund on slavery and that just about it, slavery is not right .

And like i said before Seanchan way open a path where the DO would win .

 

There isn't any choice with the Seanchan. If I'm not mistaken a character from Seanchan revealed before that their career path is chosen for them and the only way to get real advancement is through miltary exploits. I'm not claiming the system in Randland is perfect but it is better. The Seanchan empire doesn't provide stability either, there has been mentions of numerous revolts and conflicts.

 

Sul'dam have their path chosen for them. That seems to be about it. And remember, in Randland your future is essentially chosen by birth- if you're a Lord, great, if a farmer that's what you seem to do (with a few exceptions like Tam and Rand). We've not really seen that many average people that don't basically have pre-determined future based on family. Also, we've seen far fewer self-made nobles in the Westlands than among the Seanchan (despite our limited view of them). And most of the slaves of the Seanchan appear to be bureaucrats and wield a pretty significant amount of power. Slave-wise it seems only the da'covale that were formerly scheming to assassinate the Empress (Suroth) and damane actually get a hard-life. And the secret police seem to pay more attention to the Blood than the common person.

 

Not that I really like the Seanchan but, in terms of comparison, I think they aren't as bad as we all like to think. We go "slavery, oh noes!" when in reality a ruler in Randland seems to have authority on par w.r.t those not of birth. I mean, look at how Elayne treats Mat in aCoS. She expects him to do exactly as she says and to give her what she asks (foxhead). And she's a liberal ruler who believes in a social contract between rulers and the ruled. Tear and Cairhien are more typical cases of how commoners are treated. Its not well.

[smileyman]

How could all this have been avoided? Two things seems to be the root of this. Idle Aiel (Aidel) that are not bound by the Dragon's Peace. A Seanchan that is not dealt with properly.

 

How should Rand handle the Aiel then? It is implied that they have no more toh after fighting the Last Battle. This is wrong, I think. The toh comes from taking up the spears and giving up the task given to them by the Aes Sedai. Fighting in the Last Battle is part of paying for that, giving up the spears is the other part. Returning to the Way of the Leaf is the only way to give the Aiel a purpose, an ancient purpose, and keep ji'e'toh at the same time. Being excluded by the Dragon's Peace would be irrelevant. Can Rand make them give up the spears? Perhaps, but it is now obvious that this is Aviendhas task.

 

What Rand needs to do, with help from Mat, is now to kneel before Tuon and make her see that leashing women is wrong. Making the Seanchan see that sul'dam are channelers will bring chaos to their homeland. Tuon, and Mat, will have to go back and try to rebuild. This is essential. A Seanchan with damane will try to conquer the world, sooner or later. They are probably moving against Shara in the last (first) of Aviendhas visions.

 

That is what I believe.

 

 

 

Wow, I worked on this in chunks, reading in chronological order, one viewing at a time. Writing a summary and some opinions. Didn't mean for it to be this long. :-)

 

tl;dr

 

Nice summary and very well done. Should be added to the FAQ IMO. For me the key to this whole thing is Nakomi's conversation with Aviendha.

 

"It seems to me," Nakomi said "that by breaking our ancient oaths to do no violence, our people have gained great 'toh."

 

at the end of the conversation

 

"And so," Nakomi said softly, "once Sightblinder is defeated, what is left for us? . . . Why continue the old ways? How do we find honor in raiding, in killing one another, if wear4e no longer preparing for such an important task? Why grow harder? For the sake of being hard itself?"

 

That's the crux of it. The Aiel have to find something to be when it's all said and done. If they don't, then they'll turn to fighting the Seanchan and be utterly destroyed.

[Tom Sawyer]

Even if the Aiel don't find an excuse to start a war with the Seanchan, that war will come anyways. The Seanchan are determined to conquer the entire continent and leash each and every woman who can channel. If that happens because of something that Avi's kids do twenty years after the Last Battle or it happens because of some other justification twenty-five years after the Last Battle, it's inevitable that it's going to happen.

 

The problem is that the Seanchan are a fascist society built on oppression and slavery who want to dominate everyone who's not currently dominated by them. Whatever particular actions they happen to use as a justification for that domination during a given week aren't all that relevant. It's the Seanchan society which needs to change radically or this future is inevitable regardless of what any particular individuals do or do not do. Rand needs to make Tuon kneel to him and break the damane's chains prior to his death at the Last Battle or the future is dark and bleak even if he wins it.

[QueenKittyKat]

Hello all. Long time lurker, but something mentioned earlier made me think of something that has me itching to write, so I caved and finally joined up. ;)

 

On the discussion of Rand and Avi's future kids and how they were unique in how they always held onto the One Power, it was always there for them. I thought of a theory...

 

We read earlier that Rand wants to ask Nyneave to help him with Callandor, and either Elayne or Avi as well. We all know Elayne can't, and frankly that leaves Avi as the obvious choice. We also know there's a "flaw" in Callandor, a flaw no one understands. But the usage of Callandor at the Sealing wont happen right away in the books. It's still some ways off (say, few days, week, maybe more). There's a chance Avi sleeps with Rand before the actual last fight, thus getting pregnant then, and although not being pregnant enough to influence her ability to latch onto the Source, what if it's enough that some how Callandor effects her kids? What if that flaw somehow changes their ability to tap into the One Power. It can't be healthy for newly formed embryo's to be in such close contact to that much One Power anyways, especially not if Callandor's flaw is say, something like a lack of limiting oneself.

 

Like I said earlier, just thought of it a few moments ago, so still etchy on my own thoughts...but personally I doubt Rand is constantly holding onto Saidin as someone theorized earlier. He's enough of a beacon as it is, and even old Dragon was never said to have done that. Nor will Elayne's kids have that problem as Min never mentioned anything. I just think it has something to do with her being pregnant while holding that much One Power but also the fact that Callandor is flawed. Well...guess I'll find out in a year or so.

 

*sigh* Part of me wants the last book to come, to read it finally, and yet it will be also somewhat saddening to know it's finally over.

[Elend]

From what I can make out most of the nations in Randland have secret police, they just aren't as open about it. The "eyes and ears" and "questioners" are exactly what the Seanchan use. And questioners aren't just a Whitecloak thing- Syvlase's secretary, a Darkfriend yes, is a questioner. But the fact that it didn't seem that unorthodox suggests that its more common than we've been led to believe.

 

And virtually all rulers wish to extend their rule as much as they can. I mean, Elayne takes Cairhien in this book. Wanting to extend rule isn't an evil, evil thing unique to the Seanchan. They're just better at it than most.

 

Oh, and Tuon isn't the issue. She really, really isn't. It must be remembered that in the visions Rhuarc considered her honorable and an agreement had almost been reached. The Aiel were looking for an excuse for war because they felt it the only way to gain ji. They need to change as much as the Seanchan do- I mean, without the damane issue the Aiel would have simply found another excuse.

 

I think FetFnask about has the right of it. The extremely conservative (not in the political sense, in the not changing sense) Aiel and Seanchan cultures each need to change or the world's screwed.

[1eejit]

I don't think anyone is saying that the Seanchan culture isn't deeply flawed. But it's a mistake to judge it compared to modern society and condemn it while not looking at the other Wheel of Time nations in the same light. As an alternative to most of them it is nowhere near as repugnant.

[dncjordan]

Long time lurker...blah, blah, blah.

 

I think Aviendha saw something that she really wasn't supposed to see, or perhaps the probable future if she didn't alter it. I disagree with the previous poster's B5 connection, or even other prophecies in the series. This vision was related to events that Aviendha could directly alter, as it related to her direct line of children and Elayne's children.

 

If this were pre-destined and there was no chance to change what may occur it would imply that sometime between now and when Aviendha dies, which has to be at least 9 or so months from the current timeline (assuming she and Rand meet up very soon after she leaves the Wastes), she would have to say nothing about what she had seen in her vision. Aviendha knew her children's names and basically what they exactly did to start a war with Seanchen.

 

I find it somewhat unbelievable that she would not tell Rand, Elayne, or somebody about what she saw, as part of the problems were related to his actions, i.e. ignoring the Aiel in his post-Last Battle treaty, and Elayne's line believing what her kids did. Heck, that doesn't even mention any Aiel she might tell to prevent what happened. She would have to be completely silent about her revelations, which is the exact opposite of her plans at the end of her arc.

 

So, while the visions were disturbing, they in no way indicate that what happened in them was unchangable. I saw them as a warning of what she needed to do to prevent a disaster.

[Jeangray]

And remember, in Randland your future is essentially chosen by birth- if you're a Lord, great, if a farmer that's what you seem to do (with a few exceptions like Tam and Rand).

 

And Thom. And Androl. And remember that Egwene considered becoming a Wisdom and moving away. And Kinswomen, who have many different jobs over the years. Etc. Basically, in Randland, yes, most jobs are in farming, as is logical for their industrial level and yes, it is easier to stay in the family trade, but it is by no means impossible to do something else if you really want it.

But as a Seanchan slave, you'll do what your masters wish of you. If they pick you for an elite warrior unit or for a super-secret bodyguard training, good for you. But if it's the fields or cleaning the drains or seductively waiting on them in sheer clothing (and warming their beds?), you don't get to say no or change anything either.

 

Also, we've seen far fewer self-made nobles in the Westlands than among the Seanchan (despite our limited view of them).

 

Who do you mean by this? Egeanin was from a maritime family that used to stand relatively high, but IIRC seemed to have run into some trouble. Tylee? We don't know her background. And they are on a successful conquest binge, so of course there are going to be ennoblements.

 

And most of the slaves of the Seanchan appear to be bureaucrats and wield a pretty significant amount of power.

 

Huh? No. _Most_ slaves are labor. Like Karede's parents, who were weavers, IIRC. But Seanchan had no reason to bring rank-and-file slaves to Randland. They were, after all, counting on catching fresh ones there. So, they brought only those who filled important positions or were body servants seeing to the comfort of their lords and ladies.

 

And yes, maybe some of Randland nations are not much better, but they have systems from which democracy and self-government can eventually grow, while Seanchan don't.

 

Oh, and eyes and ears are mostly news agents rather than secret police.

[Tai'daishar]

Long time lurker...blah, blah, blah.

 

I think Aviendha saw something that she really wasn't supposed to see, or perhaps the probable future if she didn't alter it. I disagree with the previous poster's B5 connection, or even other prophecies in the series. This vision was related to events that Aviendha could directly alter, as it related to her direct line of children and Elayne's children.

 

If this were pre-destined and there was no chance to change what may occur it would imply that sometime between now and when Aviendha dies, which has to be at least 9 or so months from the current timeline (assuming she and Rand meet up very soon after she leaves the Wastes), she would have to say nothing about what she had seen in her vision. Aviendha knew her children's names and basically what they exactly did to start a war with Seanchen.

 

I find it somewhat unbelievable that she would not tell Rand, Elayne, or somebody about what she saw, as part of the problems were related to his actions, i.e. ignoring the Aiel in his post-Last Battle treaty, and Elayne's line believing what her kids did. Heck, that doesn't even mention any Aiel she might tell to prevent what happened. She would have to be completely silent about her revelations, which is the exact opposite of her plans at the end of her arc.

 

So, while the visions were disturbing, they in no way indicate that what happened in them was unchangable. I saw them as a warning of what she needed to do to prevent a disaster.

 

 

I agree with this, but also have a random theory. If there are any specific clues about timeline, they would invalidate this, but what if the visions Avi saw were shown to her before Rand has his epiphany on Dragonmount? That Rand might allow the future to end up messed up like her vision showed her, but maybe after he remembers love and has his epiphany, it opens the door for things to turn out very differently.

[golcarcol]

Long time lurker...blah, blah, blah.

 

I think Aviendha saw something that she really wasn't supposed to see, or perhaps the probable future if she didn't alter it. I disagree with the previous poster's B5 connection, or even other prophecies in the series. This vision was related to events that Aviendha could directly alter, as it related to her direct line of children and Elayne's children.

 

If this were pre-destined and there was no chance to change what may occur it would imply that sometime between now and when Aviendha dies, which has to be at least 9 or so months from the current timeline (assuming she and Rand meet up very soon after she leaves the Wastes), she would have to say nothing about what she had seen in her vision. Aviendha knew her children's names and basically what they exactly did to start a war with Seanchen.

 

I find it somewhat unbelievable that she would not tell Rand, Elayne, or somebody about what she saw, as part of the problems were related to his actions, i.e. ignoring the Aiel in his post-Last Battle treaty, and Elayne's line believing what her kids did. Heck, that doesn't even mention any Aiel she might tell to prevent what happened. She would have to be completely silent about her revelations, which is the exact opposite of her plans at the end of her arc.

 

So, while the visions were disturbing, they in no way indicate that what happened in them was unchangable. I saw them as a warning of what she needed to do to prevent a disaster.

 

 

I agree with this, but also have a random theory. If there are any specific clues about timeline, they would invalidate this, but what if the visions Avi saw were shown to her before Rand has his epiphany on Dragonmount? That Rand might allow the future to end up messed up like her vision showed her, but maybe after he remembers love and has his epiphany, it opens the door for things to turn out very differently.

 

 

It seems unlikely since Rand would have probably not won the LB the way he was before the epiphany. I think Lord Grog has it right.

[Elend]

And remember, in Randland your future is essentially chosen by birth- if you're a Lord, great, if a farmer that's what you seem to do (with a few exceptions like Tam and Rand).

 

And Thom. And Androl. And remember that Egwene considered becoming a Wisdom and moving away. And Kinswomen, who have many different jobs over the years. Etc. Basically, in Randland, yes, most jobs are in farming, as is logical for their industrial level and yes, it is easier to stay in the family trade, but it is by no means impossible to do something else if you really want it.

But as a Seanchan slave, you'll do what your masters wish of you. If they pick you for an elite warrior unit or for a super-secret bodyguard training, good for you. But if it's the fields or cleaning the drains or seductively waiting on them in sheer clothing (and warming their beds?), you don't get to say no or change anything either.

 

Also, we've seen far fewer self-made nobles in the Westlands than among the Seanchan (despite our limited view of them).

 

Who do you mean by this? Egeanin was from a maritime family that used to stand relatively high, but IIRC seemed to have run into some trouble. Tylee? We don't know her background. And they are on a successful conquest binge, so of course there are going to be ennoblements.

 

And most of the slaves of the Seanchan appear to be bureaucrats and wield a pretty significant amount of power.

 

Huh? No. _Most_ slaves are labor. Like Karede's parents, who were weavers, IIRC. But Seanchan had no reason to bring rank-and-file slaves to Randland. They were, after all, counting on catching fresh ones there. So, they brought only those who filled important positions or were body servants seeing to the comfort of their lords and ladies.

 

And yes, maybe some of Randland nations are not much better, but they have systems from which democracy and self-government can eventually grow, while Seanchan don't.

 

Oh, and eyes and ears are mostly news agents rather than secret police.

 

Tylee was clearly not nobility when we first saw her. Then she was. Self-made noble. The general in Path of Daggers was also a self-made noble. And reading the point of view of the Seanchan characters its reasonably clear that mobility is not exactly unheard of in Seanchan and has been pretty consistent.

 

As to eyes-and-ears, yes, they are only news agents. That's basically what the Listeners in Seanchan are too, though. A news agent that reports the inner workings of the Dragon Reborn's activities or any other monarch (or nobility) is essentially a spy. The Listeners in the Seanchan perform this... and then the people employing them determine how to manage from there. If they feel the need to question, they do. That's the equivalent to the Seanchan Seekers.

 

In Seanchan the constant revolts are essentially nationalistic in nature (or so they strike me, particularly the comment by Karede about how difficult a particular region was to put down) and nationalism has a tendency to lead to some form of self-governance and quite a bit of social change. This is in comparison to the current nations of Randland that have lasted for 1000 years without significant change that we notice (Seanchan is significantly younger, only recently consolidating).

 

We aren't really told how common slavery is in Seanchan that I remember. But we are shown that the bureaucrats, at least the upper level ones, are slaves. We don't know how many weavers and other common craftsman are slaves. We really have no room to estimate this, beyond what we've seen- and its hardly a brutal slave-state, like the Spartans of antiquity.

 

We don't know Thom's background that I recall. How do we know his parents weren't bards? On top of that, while on the subject, an enlightened ruler (Morgase) wanted his head for basically disobeying that he stay at Court. So... lets hear it for those Randland rulers? Don't act like the situation in Randland is all peaches and cream or even that much better than it is for the Seanchan.

 

The Kin are extremely atypical. They live for centuries, have abilities that are valuable to the community, and so they have a good deal of freedom and can learn many careers. Not to mention they live in a nation that lacks any real unification (though men can pretty much be killed for anything in Ebou Dar- another thing to keep in mind about the "superiority" of Randland society).

 

Egwene is also atypical. She was the daughter of the Mayor of the Two Rivers (so coming from a wealthy family for the region, consider the clock for instance) and once again was a channeler. Thus, the most promising candidate for a Wisdom (even if Nyn didn't know about channeling she still knew Eg had "talent" somehow, suggesting she felt she could channel and didn't realize it).

 

I will agree that Andor has the best chance of creating a democratic system in the series. But I'd put Seanchan before Tear or Cairhien, or any of the Borderlands in that category.

 

Also, Seanchan appears to be an equal opportunity society. Women and men working together and all that.

 

Lastly, don't forget the Aiel deal in the slave-trade IIRC. They sell those who wander into the Wastes to the Sharans from time to time.

 

ETA: I'm not a Seanchan apologist by any means, I really wanted Rand to just kill them all in TGS. But I have a hard time reconciling Aiel telling an Aes Sedai truth to provoke war and the idea that the Seanchan are mystically at fault here. And when we pause to think about some things in Randland, you realize its really messed up. Its just normal that its messed up and/or not something that really effects the characters for whatever reason. I mean, look at what Tylin did to Mat for an example of blatant abuse of the type you accused the Seanchan with the da'covale.

[GusE]

Everyone who is not a monarch has to bow down to for example Elayne. That the Seanchan have to prostrate themself before the Empress is the exact same thing with a different cultural background. If you want to talk seanchan workers/labour/slaves as a reason to hate seanchan then you folks need to take a good long look at how well our democracy and the so called hand of the market is working in our world. And then start your real hating. Cause there I am afraid there is a lot of reason for hate in the real world.

 

Sorry for going sort of OT, but can't help myself when it comes to slavery, freedom and the future of mankind.

[rlanfinson]

Yeah, this viewing was sad. I hope that it doesn't turn out this way but I tend to think this is what the future really holds. Also, it makes sense. We've already seen a large portion of the Aiel unwilling to change and accept there past. It shouldn't be a surprise that they have difficulty coming to terms with their existence after the LB.

 

I hope this isn't the future either, and I don't think that it will end this way. RJ wouldn't have dedicated over 20 years of his life creating this world for us, only to let it end in such a manner. I don't think he would do that to the fans, either. What would be the reason? To end all those years of work, the build-up to the final battle, and the aftermath is a world ruled by tyrants and slave-masters. I don't think there are any writers that come to mind who are that cruel.

[smileyman]

Yeah, this viewing was sad. I hope that it doesn't turn out this way but I tend to think this is what the future really holds. Also, it makes sense. We've already seen a large portion of the Aiel unwilling to change and accept there past. It shouldn't be a surprise that they have difficulty coming to terms with their existence after the LB.

 

I hope this isn't the future either, and I don't think that it will end this way. RJ wouldn't have dedicated over 20 years of his life creating this world for us, only to let it end in such a manner. I don't think he would do that to the fans, either. What would be the reason? To end all those years of work, the build-up to the final battle, and the aftermath is a world ruled by tyrants and slave-masters. I don't think there are any writers that come to mind who are that cruel.

 

Why wouldn't he? Seriously, why not? There's no reason for everything to end up all hunky-dory, as long as the Dark One has been defeated. There'll be lots of storylines and plots that won't be wrapped up at the end, so why not the Seanchan taking over the whole world?

[FetFnask]

How could all this have been avoided? Two things seems to be the root of this. Idle Aiel (Aidel) that are not bound by the Dragon's Peace. A Seanchan that is not dealt with properly.

 

How should Rand handle the Aiel then? It is implied that they have no more toh after fighting the Last Battle. This is wrong, I think. The toh comes from taking up the spears and giving up the task given to them by the Aes Sedai. Fighting in the Last Battle is part of paying for that, giving up the spears is the other part. Returning to the Way of the Leaf is the only way to give the Aiel a purpose, an ancient purpose, and keep ji'e'toh at the same time. Being excluded by the Dragon's Peace would be irrelevant. Can Rand make them give up the spears? Perhaps, but it is now obvious that this is Aviendhas task.

 

What Rand needs to do, with help from Mat, is now to kneel before Tuon and make her see that leashing women is wrong. Making the Seanchan see that sul'dam are channelers will bring chaos to their homeland. Tuon, and Mat, will have to go back and try to rebuild. This is essential. A Seanchan with damane will try to conquer the world, sooner or later. They are probably moving against Shara in the last (first) of Aviendhas visions.

 

Nice summary and very well done. Should be added to the FAQ IMO. For me the key to this whole thing is Nakomi's conversation with Aviendha.

 

"It seems to me," Nakomi said "that by breaking our ancient oaths to do no violence, our people have gained great 'toh."

 

at the end of the conversation

 

"And so," Nakomi said softly, "once Sightblinder is defeated, what is left for us? . . . Why continue the old ways? How do we find honor in raiding, in killing one another, if wear4e no longer preparing for such an important task? Why grow harder? For the sake of being hard itself?"

 

That's the crux of it. The Aiel have to find something to be when it's all said and done. If they don't, then they'll turn to fighting the Seanchan and be utterly destroyed.

 

Thank you. =)

 

And I agree that Nakomi is the key, or one of them. I think she is right. I do not believe she's an agent for Sightblinder.

 

The Aiel has great toh. They must see that by continuing to do violence after the Last Battle they continue to incur more toh. Policing the Westlands after the LB will mean violence. They must lay down the spears to regain their honour. Perhaps Rands helps with this by giving them the song and giving them the task, nay the honour, of singing life into the lands again and even into the Blight. To help them they have their moral and honourable cousings, the Tuatha'an and the Ogier. This will not be easy, but the Aiel are determined enough to prevail against all odds. Just like the Tuatha'an.

 

Both Aiel and Tuatha'an have toh towards the Aes Sedai in a way. Aiel put their spears away, join the Tuatha'an and they find the Song of Growing together. Then they become the Jenn Aiel. They return to their roots, Da'shain Aiel from the Age of Legends.

 

Somthing just hit me. Could Nakomi be Jenn? What do we know about the Jenn?

 

Also, what about those hissing sticks?