Discuss Aviendha's Arc

[BladeDancer]

 

[...]

 

Clearly this is the purpose or function of the ter'angreal. To allow the user to see the future (via their descendants POVs). What would be the purpose of a ter'angreal that did this? The reason is that the future visions can be altered in the present - the future seen is alterable.

 

 

Yeah, I like the entirety of what you wrote, but why do you assume that the purpose of the ter'angreal is to reveal and thus allow the future to be altered?

 

I've written in this thread if you are curious to my input....

 

My theory about the columns ter'angreals is as follows...

 

It just seemed more likely to me that the column ter'angreals main purpose is to view the future (via generation stepping POVs) rather than the past. There is another ter'angreal at Rhuidean which gives prospective Wise Ones glimpses of possible futures - so there is a clear theme of Rhuidean's ter'angreals offering views of the future in order to guide the users (the Aiel). You can see how useful these would be. It seemed apparent to me that the columns ter'angreal had future viewing as it's main purpose because this is the setting it 'switched' to immediately after Aviendha tried to use her Talent (of understanding the purpose and usage of ter'angreal) on it. I assumed that the last people who understand what the ter'angreal did, the Jenn Aiel (because they had AOL Aes Sedai with them), were also able to use the ter'angreal properly.

 

Now that Aviendha has shown what the columns ter'angreal does, the Aiel chapters in TSR make more sense. Specifically (TSR Ch 25) the ones where Rand is using the ter'angreal to view the Jenn Aiel meeting with the Clan Chiefs of the day. The Jenn Aiel had to stage an intervention because they had used the columns ter'angreal to view the future generations POV and found that the Aiel would die out within 3 generations. The 3 generations phrase is significant imo, as it does not tell a timeframe in actual years but in terms of generations. Using the column ter'angreals does not always allow the user to tell timeframes of the various visions in precise numbers of years but it does in terms of number of generations. The timeframe being specified in numbers of generations rather than a more precise timeframe heavily indicates to me, that this foretelling was carried out by using the column ter'angreals in the same way that Aviendha does much later.

 

So the Jenn Aiel set up a system of educating the prospective clan-chiefs that would become a tradition and rite of passage for future Clan-Chief candidates. It was a very specific thing to do and reveals that they had actual foresight in very real terms. The mechanism of educating the clan-chiefs about the past was the column ter'angreals. These were switched to a mode such that usage was defaulted to backward viewing (of previous generations) enabling the education about the Aiel origin/sin. This tradition of educating the Aiel Clan-Chiefs also just so happened to be the way of rebinding the Aiel to the service of the Dragon Reborn via the prophecy of the He Who Comes With the Dawn. This was not a coincidence.

 

It seems almost certain to me that all this was done by the Jenn Aiel using the future viewing ability of the column ter'angreals. There are too many specific things done in setting up the Rhuidean traditional rites of passage that proved to be vital for Rand to become the Car'acarn. It is clear the Jenn Aiel have clear foresight about what needs to be set-up to make this happen. We know that various Prophecies can be made by those with Foretelling or even Dreaming to see glimpses of future events but it seems more likely to me that all this foresight was because the Jenn Aiel used this future viewing abilities of the columns ter'angreal which they had at their disposal. The Jenn Aiel had a machine in the middle of their city that enabled them to effectively see the future (via the generation stepping POV effect) and they knew how to use it (unlike the future generations of Aiel who followed them). It seems obvious that this is the method they used to predict the future Car'acarn.

 

I hope the above is logical and makes sense.

 

Interesting theory. But too far-fetched IMHO. I'm inclined to think that the ter'angreal that the wise ones apprantices go, the one Aviendha went in, was always meant to show the past. and with the other one showing the future, they would make the perfect pair...opposites meant for the wise ones to have a warning about the possible future, and the terrible knowledge of the past.

 

If the Jenn Aiel knew about the future of the Aiel, I'm fairly certain there would've been dissension on a major scale among them. They would know that in the future, the Da'shain Aiel left the way of the leaf and turned into warriors. This would've resulted in a situation similar to what happened when Rand revealed the Aiel their past. Sure, some of them would've understood its significance, but I don't think they would've been able to put this knowledge out of their minds for the greater good. And we see this that TSR chapter, when one of the Jenn refuses to acknowledge his own son after he(the son( kills someone to protect his people.

 

I'm pretty disappointed by the bleak future of the Aiel we saw in this book. If the new breaking that Rand will cause means the Seanchan will take over, that is not only dissatisfying, but anti-climactic. The first breaking saw mountains leveled, new oceans rising, and almost all the major cities in the world died...as a result of the destruction caused by the hundred companions and other male channelers. Granted, this time is meant to be better, as there are sure to be less mistakes(I hope), and that Rand remembers what he did wrong last time, but this Seanchan takeover....I dunno.

 

I still hate the Seanchan simply because of the future visions of Aviendha though, and I hope it never happens (contradictory to what I said above maybe...but meh...) That chapter brought tears to my eyes.

 

My theory is about the usage of the columns ter'angreal in Rhuidean by the Jenn Aiel. However the Jenn Aiel were only were only able to use this ter'angreal after they ceased their wandering during the Breaking and settled in Rhuidean. Although the Aiel transported some ter'angreal as part of the Second Covenant, it is not specified whether the column (and ring) ter'angreals were amongst those items. The descriptions of them imply to me that they are very big and not easily transportable in wagons. It is possible that these ter'angreal were actually in Rhuidean when the Jenn Aiel actually first arrived there. This may be one of the reasons that they finally settled there and tried to build a city there. Another possibility is that the Aes Sedai seen in TSR Ch25 actually built/brought or set up these ter'angreal after the Jenn Aiel started building Rhuidean. **

 

Regardless of which possiblity for how these ter'angreal came to be set up in Rhuidean is actually true, the Jenn Aiel did NOT have the ability to view the past or the future while they were still the Dashain Aiel or wandering the land slowing becoming a minority of pacifists amongst the Aiel. So the fact that the Dashain Aiel would wander for generations and most would stop following the Way of the Leaf was NOT forseen by using these columns ter'angreal. The Jenn Aiel were not able to see the future before they arrived in Rhuidean. It was only at some point after settling in Rhuidean that the Jenn Aiel gained the ability or knowledge of using the columns ter'angreal to see the future, probably because they encountered some old Aes Sedai who knew how to switch the ter'angreal on.

 

 

** I think this last possibility is true, as it would make sense because the Jenn Aiel started building a great city in Rhuidean but stopped halfway through leaving it incomplete. Why would they do this? I think that perhaps they were located by the Aes Sedai (either from the AOL as they are very old, or from the new White Tower) who set up or activated the columns ter'angreal such that the Jenn Aiel could see the future. What they saw was enough for their focus to shift entirely from building their city into doing something else - intervening to prevent the extinction of the Aiel in 3 generations.

[Random Man]

Hmm, perhaps Avi will still her babies in the womb to stop the problem.

 

It's not their ability to channel that is the problem, it's how they think, their lack of morals/ethics. Maybe more their sense of entitlement. "We can do whatever we want because we weren't specifically included in the Dragon's Peace."

 

If Rand ends up leaving them out, it's probably because he figures they have enough honor that they don't need to be explicitly told. From what we are shown, the breakdown seems to result from a general lack of adults. It appears to be a Lord of the Flies future; children wrestling with issues they don't have the maturity to understand.

 

If Aviendha wants to abort that future, she needs to figure out what happened to all the adults and prevent their demise.

 

Aviendha seems determined to prevent this future from happening. How far do you think she'd go to prevent this? I agree that the Aiel's foretold downfall isn't due to the fact that her children have crazy channeling abilities, but lack of guidance and apparent sense of entitlement to make earthshaking decisions bestowed upon them by other Aiel because of their heritage in a post-TG world bereft of those who saved it. Which brings me back to my question: how far would Avi go to prevent this?

 

She obviously can't kill herself because that would doom Rand due to the Warder bond. But aside from that, she could do a number of things. Min's viewing shows that she doesn't keep from getting pregnant and that the babes are born healthy. But there's still that "something odd" about them. Would she go as far as to kill them after birth? Or it may be possible that she does nothing that impacts the future, and the future plays out just as Avi viewed. In that case, it will come to pass that Rand will have destroyed the Aiel as prophecy foretold -- by fathering those who brought about their demise: "He shall take you back, and destroy you."

[Sharaman]

The Aiel have to find another purpose and reason for collective existence post TG.

It's Avi's job to ensure that they do because otherwise they will drift down this path into a war they cannot win.

How she ensures that her nation retains it sense of honour and committment while switching directions is her big problem but at least she's seen the alternative spelt out.

[f3llyn]

Aviendha seems determined to prevent this future from happening. How far do you think she'd go to prevent this? I agree that the Aiel's foretold downfall isn't due to the fact that her children have crazy channeling abilities, but lack of guidance and apparent sense of entitlement to make earthshaking decisions bestowed upon them by other Aiel because of their heritage in a post-TG world bereft of those who saved it. Which brings me back to my question: how far would Avi go to prevent this?

 

She obviously can't kill herself because that would doom Rand due to the Warder bond. But aside from that, she could do a number of things. Min's viewing shows that she doesn't keep from getting pregnant and that the babes are born healthy. But there's still that "something odd" about them. Would she go as far as to kill them after birth? Or it may be possible that she does nothing that impacts the future, and the future plays out just as Avi viewed. In that case, it will come to pass that Rand will have destroyed the Aiel as prophecy foretold -- by fathering those who brought about their demise: "He shall take you back, and destroy you."

I also thought that prophecy was more figurative than anything else. Just like how Rand will break the world again. Meaning what he does to the aiel isn't physically destroy them, but change them so they no longer resemble the current aiel. Of course there is also the second meaning that we get from only having a remnant of a remnant of aiel left, too. These will be the ones that are changed.

[Templadir]

According to prophecy Rand will save a remnant of a remnant of the Aiel but in the future vision Aviendha had full clans still existed that died off completely in a few generations after messing with the Seanshan.

Prophecy is not set in stone but in this case it seems completely sidestepped unless the Tinkers was the remnant which would be strange since they don't think of themsleves as Aiel at all. Apparently if a too large chunk of them survive they are doomed.

 

A number of non Shaido Wise Ones are collared by the Seanshan at some time in AMoL or following the Last Battle giving the remaining Aiel a reason to go to full scale war. Aiel female channelers did not use the power for aid in battle before Dumais Wells but seem to have continued to do so in some way during the Last Battle and beyond in this timeline for them to be captured. Perhaps only by providing gateways for troops unless the Seanchan raided holds.

 

The Aiel probably must adopt pacifism again to survive as a people and do this before the Last Battle. Perhaps by a reunification with the Tinkers if they can straight out their differences. There is a possibility that Rand knows the song with his complete memory and already contacted the Tinkers during his off time before going to the Field.

 

Another alternative to avoid the vision would be that the majority of the Aiel needs to die during the Last Battle so they don't have the manpower to wage wars in the immediate generations following. This would fulfill the remnant of a remnant in a way but the question is if the Aiel wouldn't return to war sooner or later anyway since they are warriors and have their honor system.

[cgilbertmc]

1. If it was really going to happen, why would it be shown now??

 

Why not? Show the future but not the process that leads to it is one valid and effective way to tell a story. In Babylon 5 you were shown glimpses of what happens in the end even as early as 1st episode 1st season...

 

right.....

 

This is RJ we are talking about here. I wouldnt call his plots simple, he is much better than that.

 

Showing us something like this to scare the living crap out of people and having Avi change it is EXACTLY what he would do.

 

Look at Graendal and Perrin in this book. the Shadow Prophecies said Perrin has to die, yet, it didnt.

 

 

Did it? Or, did it say that Perrins pride had to die?

 

I agree with that...

Additionally, the prophesy references the "Broken Wolf whom Death has known". Perrin is neither broken nor has been known by death. Noam on the other hand could be both.

[Guest scragham]

ia search turned off? was unable to find any detailed discussion of nakomi the old-fashioned way...

 

i have a theory that possibly nakomi is a manifestation of the upcoming test... she/it assesses the testee and prepares the artifact for the kind of vision that the testee needs to see/endure?

 

if that were true, it would also suggest that she/it's a manifestation of a jenn aiel, thus the lack of sept etc etc.

 

this might also explain why no previous wise one has seen the post-car'a'carn future - their primary concerns would have centered on what to do in response to finding the car'a'carn in the first place.

 

obviously, the huge, massive, gaping hole in all this is, how exactly would said manifestation/artifact know which visitors to rhuidean to appear to? and i have no idea on how to plug this hole.

[Bob T Dwarf]

obviously, the huge, massive, gaping hole in all this is, how exactly would said manifestation/artifact know which visitors to rhuidean to appear to? and i have no idea on how to plug this hole.

 

How did the wards around Callandor know to allow Rand to take the Sword That Is Not A Sword? IOW how do you key a weave to someone who has not been born yet? Conversely, how do you key a weave to someone who is long dead?

 

Seems like you have to either key it to Rand's DNA or LTT's soul. There is nothing available for those who Warded Callandor to key to at the time the Wards were placed in either instance.

 

There's lotsa unexplained stuff in this series. Lotsa things "just happen."

[f3llyn]

According to prophecy Rand will save a remnant of a remnant of the Aiel but in the future vision Aviendha had full clans still existed that died off completely in a few generations after messing with the Seanshan.

Prophecy is not set in stone but in this case it seems completely sidestepped unless the Tinkers was the remnant which would be strange since they don't think of themsleves as Aiel at all. Apparently if a too large chunk of them survive they are doomed.

 

A number of non Shaido Wise Ones are collared by the Seanshan at some time in AMoL or following the Last Battle giving the remaining Aiel a reason to go to full scale war. Aiel female channelers did not use the power for aid in battle before Dumais Wells but seem to have continued to do so in some way during the Last Battle and beyond in this timeline for them to be captured. Perhaps only by providing gateways for troops unless the Seanchan raided holds.

 

The Aiel probably must adopt pacifism again to survive as a people and do this before the Last Battle. Perhaps by a reunification with the Tinkers if they can straight out their differences. There is a possibility that Rand knows the song with his complete memory and already contacted the Tinkers during his off time before going to the Field.

 

Another alternative to avoid the vision would be that the majority of the Aiel needs to die during the Last Battle so they don't have the manpower to wage wars in the immediate generations following. This would fulfill the remnant of a remnant in a way but the question is if the Aiel wouldn't return to war sooner or later anyway since they are warriors and have their honor system.

Well, here's the thing. Even if the tinkers knew and still considered themselves aiel, could they really be considered aiel? They've been intermixing their blood with other peoples for far to long to even be considered real aiel, imo.

[Durinax]

this was teh saddest moment in the book for me. I love the Aiel. I think the problem is that Avi and Rand die and arent brought back. Honour seems to be taught by mothers and fathers, without them the children could easily see themselves as better then everyone and without the honour system instilled into them

[l_uniquefeuille]

Aviendha'a visions were disturbing to say the least. The Aiel race need to preserved.

 

 

1) The Damane business needs to be taken care of. The Seanchan in leashing all women with the spark(and indirectly stopping any possibilities of marriage or

sex or children ) kind of make way for the abilities to be curbed(is that the word), and in sue time, the people born with the spark are nearly extinct.

IIRC, in the earlier books, many sisters attributed the increasingly few novices in the WT to the Reds gentling male channelers.

 

2)The Aiel should find another purpose other than the spears. And shouldn't depend on the Car'acarn to show it to them.

 

3) The should NOT return to the Waste. As Aviendha's vision clearly showed, the Aiel in the far future are ignorant of any scientific advances (electricity

and cars) and actually become the savages that the wetlanders thought them to be.

 

4)Not so sure about this one. But IMO Rand shouldn't bow to the crystal throne and assume Seanchan Supremacy. They should be made to accept other people and races. (Tuon was remembered as being an honourable woman. Wonder what happened to her).

 

5) IMO the ability of Aviendha's kids to hold the source more often than possible is a Talent and not the cause for distruction. Min said there was something speacial about the kids when she views them though she doesn't understand exactly what. Maybe this is it.

 

 

BTW nothing was shown about Min's possible progenies. Any reason for me to still think that Aviendha may bring up Min's possible kids? Maybe the black haired brother of Padra is actually Min's son.

[WilliamAndrewPotter]

first post here -

 

like many others in this thread, the chapters with Avi were most disturbing to me for several reasons...

 

1) It's clear 17+ years after TG the seanchan and aiel are at a low level war. the scene with avi's daughter shows her finishing off a few of the seanchan and complaining about them learning gates. we also learn all the nations are still warring with eachother all be it on the sly...

 

a) The seanchan were "scouting" the aiel camp... you do that in preparation for war... so the aiel were not completely to blame for the bloodshed.

 

b) throw in the fact it's been nearly a generation and the seanchan still hold aiel as damane. There is plenty of provocation there.

 

~we see the aiel already straying from ji'e'toh, as avi's daughter already thinks of gaishan as "prisoners", worse that the aiel would take non-aiel as gaishan... and that it was best to "spare them the shame" and just kill them... this is already an appalling bastardization of ji'e'toh; becoming gaishan is a "shame" now?

 

c) that there is almost no aiel over 20 tells you all you need to know about the terrible price they pay in TG.

 

d) hat the children of rand don't remember him is troubling enough, and speaks of an early end for him. That the quads are about as old as the year of TG makes it pretty clear they were concieved pretty much when TG was going on. This also is a strong case for him not surviving TG... what man bones his wife, knocks her up, then never touches her again? We KNOW those are the only 4 aiel children of rand... as they talk of 3 lines of the dragon in the aiel people, and the pov in avi's vision is of the one child of the dragon who would never give up the spear and take a husband (the other daughter was already studying to be a wiseone, and likely prego, the two sons make the other two lines)

 

2) The aiel, even wiped out to the point where none are older then 20, somehow go to war with the seanchan, and hold them in stalemate for close to 20 years until the next vision and the aiel "tricking" the nations of the world into war with the seanchan. I found this memory of the future appalling because of one implication. That the seanchan would hold to a treaty. Any treaty. I find this outrageous to the extreme... this is a people who lie and cheat and assassinate eachother with little shame. Oh sure... oaths are important to them... but it strains credulity that they would hold to peace with randland for even 40-50 years... unless of course they were devastated in TG as well... and had not recovered as quickly as the aiel.

 

3) to see the aiel digrade in such a painful way while the undeniably twisted and wicked seanchan empire stops being the empire of ravens and has so dominated hte world it's known as the "illuminated ones" and believed to be a "special race" was a bitter pill to swallow. Almost like seeing a future where neo-nazis ruled the world and all "undesirable" people were enslaved and laboring in concentration camps... so beaten down were the undesirables that they even think they're deserving of their fate. The abject horror of their descent and the unrelenting genocide carrier out by the seanchan just was a terrible fate.

 

~ what i think bothers me the most of these chapters is the inevitability of it all... the shape of the world currently seems to dictate this result... as it's clear rand has not the will to bend or break the seanchan, and the seanchan have not the desire to pitch their tents and go home. What puzzles me is where is the WC moment for the seanchan. The whitecloaks... the fanatical and rabid lunatics of randland... when confronted with the last battle and the choice of tormenting farmers and hanging aes sedai or fighting trollocs and defeating the DO, chose the later. The seanchan don't seem to be heading toward this choice. it seems they will never be faced with their own evil, nor their own faults... but rather get to sweep up the world, everyone else bleed to save.

 

It's such a dyspotic future, it still leaves me ill to consider it.

 

 

~sidenote: Sanderson's writing at times is too confused and unfocused, at others too unsophisticated for the tone of most of the series... i think this harms the series over all...and while i'm enjoying reading the end of this wonderful series i can't help but feel at times i'm reading a 3rd rate interpretation of jordan's vision.

[smileyman]

first post here -

 

like many others in this thread, the chapters with Avi were most disturbing to me for several reasons...

 

1) It's clear 17+ years after TG the seanchan and aiel are at a low level war. the scene with avi's daughter shows her finishing off a few of the seanchan and complaining about them learning gates. we also learn all the nations are still warring with eachother all be it on the sly...

 

a) The seanchan were "scouting" the aiel camp... you do that in preparation for war... so the aiel were not completely to blame for the bloodshed.

 

b) throw in the fact it's been nearly a generation and the seanchan still hold aiel as damane. There is plenty of provocation there.

 

There's clearly been a low level Cold War going on for a generation. It escalates into a hot war because of the deceit involved in getting Andor to enter into the battle. Once Andor comes in they'll presumably bring in their allies, thus triggering a WWI type of situation where one by one nations sign up for one side or the other due to their alliances. I don't think there's any denying that the Aiel had provocation for battle--but they were not able to win on their own, so they used deceit to bring in allies who were otherwise unwilling.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well, here's the thing. Even if the tinkers knew and still considered themselves aiel, could they really be considered aiel? They've been intermixing their blood with other peoples for far to long to even be considered real aiel, imo.

 

We don't know that being Aiel is racial in any way. I think during the AoL it was a philosophy that was open to anyone. It's only since the Breaking that those who abandoned the Way of the Leaf have become isolated and inbred.

[amaranth]

The Aiel have to find another purpose and reason for collective existence post TG.

It's Avi's job to ensure that they do because otherwise they will drift down this path into a war they cannot win.

How she ensures that her nation retains it sense of honour and committment while switching directions is her big problem but at least she's seen the alternative spelt out.

 

I agree. The view of the future shows what will happen if no one gives the Aiel purpose. This doesn't seem to be in any prophecy for Rand, so it looks like it's on Aviendha's shoulders to make it happen.

 

I find it interesting that the first time Aviendha went into the ter'angreal, it showed her something that wasn't very helpful. Maybe someone rigged it? Could be the woman she met on the road. Now that we know there are shadow prophecies that haven't been exposed to us, it's possible that Aviendha was part of them.

[f3llyn]

Well, here's the thing. Even if the tinkers knew and still considered themselves aiel, could they really be considered aiel? They've been intermixing their blood with other peoples for far to long to even be considered real aiel, imo.

 

We don't know that being Aiel is racial in any way. I think during the AoL it was a philosophy that was open to anyone. It's only since the Breaking that those who abandoned the Way of the Leaf have become isolated and inbred.

Well the Aiel had been on the move and isolated since the breaking. It stands to reason since they were alone in the waste for almost 3000 years with little interaction with people from outside the waste that the AoL aiel were of the same blood lines as the waste aiel, or vice versa.

 

While the Tuathaa'an aiel were constantly mixing with people from various lands and remember how they were always rumored to steal things? And people?

[cleantoe]

Just finished the book. Quite awesome, although Graendal is a complete failure in this book (poorly written, poorly executed on her part, which is out of character).

 

Anyways, about this part in the book.

 

I read up until page 5 and didn't see anything about this, so sorry if it's already been mentioned...but... (although it was hinted at in some Babylon 5 references)

 

Doesn't anyone else think that the correct course of action for Aviendha would be to do...nothing? Maybe the ter'angreal she used took into account that she's seeing the future, and took into account her actions to try to change it. It's kind of a paradox, I know. The only problem with this is that her inaction really is the cause of it all anyways (by everyone being unaware of the future and staying that way).

 

I'm not doing a very good job articulating my point, so apologies for that. Moreover, I don't really believe it myself. But it's something to think about -- perhaps her viewing the future was already taken into consideration when the ter'angreal showed her the future.

[Erunion]

While possible, I can't seeing that happening as it would imply a single, constantly adapting future for the wheel of time, as opposed to the "manyworlds" idea that pervades the books. (The age lace, the Worlds of If, Tel'aran'rhiod)

I think it far more likely that the pillars showed Aviendha one possible future world, not necessarily the future world.

[Jaius]

That blew my mind, I groaned internally thinking I'd have to read about more past Aiel; I wasn't expecting her to see the future. I also sort of see a crude cycle, Dragon stops the Dark One > Seanchan rise, usher in the Age of Legends.

[ChrisAndre]

Not Age of Legends, Age of Mechanics, industrial revolution, cannons, trains, electricity. The Seanchan take over Rand's universities. It may be there is no access to the One Power in the next Age.

[Guest drose1234]

(Loooooooooong time lurker here - but I loved TOM so much I caved in and joined up - Hi, everyone!)

 

This scene bothered me for a while after my reading, the horrible fate of the Aiel and seeing how the world can continue down a dark path even after the last battle is incredibly disheartening. I do believe that this is a very possible future, but not one set in stone. As someone has probably already said, just knowing the future is enough to change it a little.

 

Question - Are we sure that other Wise Ones have not gone back through the columns after seeing the past, and seen the future as Avi did here? This was the first thing that occurred to me, as it could have been an extra test. Maybe not all WOs have done this - but some have? Thoughts? (Apologies is this has already been addressed.)

 

I agree the future is all to possible. What good is Rand saving the world from the DO if he cant save the world from itself once he is gone.

[Crael123]

I really want randland to grow and have new technology but... not like this. This is horrible. just as things are starting to happen with the one power suddenly the seanchan come and wipe it out. I hate that. I wish Rand had not stopped and just blown up the seanchan... So much.

[Ltsegarra]

Why do people insist on equating Rand's "kneeling or bowing" to the Seanchan throne as the Seachan "taking control of the world" or ruling it? As a point of fact Andor is mentioned as still existing. Rand also doesn't rule anything other than Tear or was that illian? I forget. Armies are said to be aligning with him not that his ruling them, which was the point of the whole "let's slap Rands face" ..it was a test to see if Rand can work with other "Rulers" accepting their opinions whether right or wrong as is the case of Egwene.

 

One needs to remember that the visions shown Aviendha are not necessarily geared towards her specifically. It's a trial of a Wise Women to see both the past mistakes and the future mistakes of all Aiel. I'm recalling the book "Dune", similarily the Fremen once they freed themselves and Arrakis went on to a universal "Jihad" and ultimately were punished by Pauls son "The Emperor", the Aiel must not keep on the destructive path set in motion since "Lament error" or whatever it was called that trigger the Aiel War and coming "Seachan War".

Avienha doesn't need to commit an abortion(it's pretty sad that people in this world think of this solution as a first step). Avienhas goal, as is ALL Wise Women is to turn the Aiel away from this potential path of war and extinction, and to find value in something or than war...I'm thinking of a return to their days of peace, through a willing act of Gaishan. That is, the Aiels original sin was turning from "The way of the leaf" and servitude(not in the bad way), they must turn back to the way of the leaf and accept servitude again. I'm saying servitude not in the slavery sort of way. I mean serving "humanity" to reach a golden age again.

 

On the "leashed ones" dilemma. I'm pretty sure that without the need for war against the Aiel, the need for damane will fall into disuse and disfavor for the simple fact that the empress herself can channel. As can all Sul'damane. Once that secret is out...potentially all chained one will be released. Logically all sul'damanes must turn themselves in if they know they can channel as the one in the white tower is begging Egwene to chain her. If all the Sul'damanes become chained ones who will control them? Without damanes both the Whittower and the Aiel Women have no reasons to go to "war" and "free" leashed ones. Logically, the suldames will free them..eventually unless a war as an Aiel war threatens them forcing the Seachan to "circle the wagons" and protects itself from an external threat.

[Suttree]

Why do people insist on equating Rand's "kneeling or bowing" to the Seanchan throne as the Seachan "taking control of the world" or ruling it? As a point of fact Andor is mentioned as still existing. Rand also doesn't rule anything other than Tear or was that illian? I forget. Armies are said to be aligning with him not that his ruling them, which was the point of the whole "let's slap Rands face" ..it was a test to see if Rand can work with other "Rulers" accepting their opinions whether right or wrong as is the case of Egwene.

 

One needs to remember that the visions shown Aviendha are not necessarily geared towards her specifically. It's a trial of a Wise Women to see both the past mistakes and the future mistakes of all Aiel. I'm recalling the book "Dune", similarily the Fremen once they freed themselves and Arrakis went on to a universal "Jihad" and ultimately were punished by Pauls son "The Emperor", the Aiel must not keep on the destructive path set in motion since "Lament error" or whatever it was called that trigger the Aiel War and coming "Seachan War".

Avienha doesn't need to commit an abortion(it's pretty sad that people in this world think of this solution as a first step). Avienhas goal, as is ALL Wise Women is to turn the Aiel away from this potential path of war and extinction, and to find value in something or than war...I'm thinking of a return to their days of peace, through a willing act of Gaishan. That is, the Aiels original sin was turning from "The way of the leaf" and servitude(not in the bad way), they must turn back to the way of the leaf and accept servitude again. I'm saying servitude not in the slavery sort of way. I mean serving "humanity" to reach a golden age again.

 

On the "leashed ones" dilemma. I'm pretty sure that without the need for war against the Aiel, the need for damane will fall into disuse and disfavor for the simple fact that the empress herself can channel. As can all Sul'damane. Once that secret is out...potentially all chained one will be released. Logically all sul'damanes must turn themselves in if they know they can channel as the one in the white tower is begging Egwene to chain her. If all the Sul'damanes become chained ones who will control them? Without damanes both the Whittower and the Aiel Women have no reasons to go to "war" and "free" leashed ones. Logically, the suldames will free them..eventually unless a war as an Aiel war threatens them forcing the Seachan to "circle the wagons" and protects itself from an external threat.

 

According to your "logic" Fortuana should have already been begging to be chained. The secret is out to some degree and the Empress has already claimed she chooses not to channel and that makes all the difference in the world. I do believe the practice will change at some point but this scenario is highly unlikely.

[Ltsegarra]

Definitely change won't happen in a day, but Jordan and Sanderson has implied it. As an eventuality, which is a hidden foretelling in of itself. The future shown is one were the last battle is "won" AND that both societies are around to bear witness to that future.

Ovviously, the "rules" don't apply to those of the blood, because as you say Tuon didn't beg to be chained. Tuon has seeded a possible future were damanes release or were she is chained. Enough people on both "sides of the pond" are aware of the secret AND that Toun trained as a Sul'damane that it will either free the damane or destroy the "monarchy"...or both.