Discuss Aviendha's Arc

[deepak_dragonreborn]

Ok.. this thing has been buggin me a lot. There was one POV in which Avi's daughter or grand daughter or someone clearer said that the Seanchan Empress made the Dragon Reborn kneel before her... Does that mean that Rand will have to kneel before Tuon??? I srsly dont like this. But with Rand becoming all goody goody its possible.. I'll be really angry if Rand kneels to the Seanchan

 

That's not going to happen.. the Seanchan's Prophecy that was corrupted by Ishy says that the Dragon Reborn will kneel before the Crystal Throne... it's been alluded to so much that it's obvious that something else is going to happen. The real prophecy only says that the Dragon Reborn will bind the Nine Moons to him.

 

Ya but i defintely remember one of Avi's offspring clearly stating that the Empress made the Car'carn kneel. Thats why im not so certain. It can actually happen

[Bob T Dwarf]

This arc severely depressed me. I believe the author's intent was for us to feel/understand "The Bleakness."

 

On another note... from the beginning of this thread... The prophecy of the dragon about binding the daughter of the nine moons cannot come true. There isn't one anymore.

 

I wonder if the reason the Black Tower held out the longest from the Seanchan because the dreamspike is still there and they can't gateway in to attack it.

 

It already came true. She is married to Mat. Mat is part of the traingle. Hence Tuon is now bonded to Rand through Mat

 

Don't think so. IF Rand had ordered Mat to marry Tuon, then perhaps it might be said that he had "bound the nine moons to serve him." Since he didn't do any such thing, the nine moons are not yet bound to his service.

 

I'm not sure we even know what the exact wording of that prophecy is. Moiraine just quotes a fragment - 'he shall bind the nine moons to serve him', and admits neither she nor all the scholars who have studied the prophesies know what it means.

 

In the version of the future that Aviendha saw, he knelt to the Empress thereby fulfilling the Seanchan Prophecy, which would have the effect of mutually binding bonds of protection and fealty. This led to BAD THINGS.

 

Avi's vision could be further evidence that the Seanchan Prophecies are corrupt and must not be followed.

[Shard]

Timeline-wise, did Aviendha go through before or after Rand's transformation on Dragonmount?

 

If it was before, then perhaps she saw the future as it would be unless The Dragon reconciled himself with his role. Had she gone through after that, she would have seen a different future.

 

Did the Rand in Aviendha's future really seem like a Peace loving kind of guy to you? The Rand Pre-VoG doesn't seem like a guy that would set up a Dragon's Peace.

[Emily_Sedai]

Other than the leashing of Channelers, what if the stability of Seanchan rule is what issues in the new Age of Legends. How does the rest of the world feel about seanchan control? Maybe everyone else loves it. All we see is the Aiel perspective.

 

Also, seems that Avi's children are what starts this Aiel oppression. A quick fix would be to not get knocked up by Rand.

 

That's like asking "Other than the Holocaust thing, what was so bad about the Nazis?". It's the entire structure of Seanchan society that's the problem and the leashing of channelers is just an offshoot of their philosophy. Everyone loves being ruled by fascists as long as they have no issues with accepting their pre-determined place in society and not ever making any waves against the people placed about them and enjoy the concept of allowing their entire lives to be destroyed by the arbitrary whims of their social betters.

 

The Seanchan plan to oppress and destroy the Aiel along with everyone else who doesn't bow to them - this is their current goal. At best, Avi's children sped that up by a couple of years by giving them Arbitrary Reason A as opposed to their using Arbitrary Reason B a little bit later.

 

I find it interesting that everyone assumes that it is the Seanchan who would violate a peace treaty... the Empire calls the citizens on the Randland side of the ocean oathbreakers, and I can't think of a single instance where the Seanchan violated a treaty or agreement. Even when Tuon is kidnapped by a rogue in the middle of the night and dragged across various nations, she never once thought of breaking her word. I think it would stand to reason that the Dragon's peace would not be violated by them once they agreed to it.

 

You know, the Empire is one of the only 'growth' cultures that appear in the WOT besides the Aiel. All of the nations in Randland seem to be shrinking over the centuries...

 

I don't think that the leashing of channelers is a philosophy that grew out of the Seanchan culture, it was a direct result of the channelers' oppresion. We all seem to forget that the seanchan channelers terrorized the populace of the not yet formed Empire, and they were eventually overthrown and paid the price for their games. If you were terrorized by a lion, and eventually managed to cage the lion, would you be quick to release it from captivity anywhere near you? I don't agree with the Seanchan policy of chaining channelers, but I understand why/how it came into being.

[coq]

Timeline-wise, did Aviendha go through before or after Rand's transformation on Dragonmount?

 

If it was before, then perhaps she saw the future as it would be unless The Dragon reconciled himself with his role. Had she gone through after that, she would have seen a different future.

 

Did the Rand in Aviendha's future really seem like a Peace loving kind of guy to you? The Rand Pre-VoG doesn't seem like a guy that would set up a Dragon's Peace.

 

Desiring of peace, maybe. Yes, even Pre-VoG I think he would still have set up the Dragon's Peace, but the methods and outcome would have been markedly different. Pre-VoG, it would have gone down like his initial meeting with Tuon. Demanding peace and (unlike with Tuon) ultimately getting it through sheer power of will or through fear. This way, the peace only lasts as long as the Dragon. Post-VoG, he would bind and unite people to peace. An enduring peace that would outlast him. A peace that all nations had willingly entered into and would maintain for as long as the Memory of The Dragon persisted, not just the presence of The Dragon.

[Tom Sawyer]

 

I find it interesting that everyone assumes that it is the Seanchan who would violate a peace treaty... the Empire calls the citizens on the Randland side of the ocean oathbreakers, and I can't think of a single instance where the Seanchan violated a treaty or agreement. Even when Tuon is kidnapped by a rogue in the middle of the night and dragged across various nations, she never once thought of breaking her word. I think it would stand to reason that the Dragon's peace would not be violated by them once they agreed to it.

 

You know, the Empire is one of the only 'growth' cultures that appear in the WOT besides the Aiel. All of the nations in Randland seem to be shrinking over the centuries...

 

I don't think that the leashing of channelers is a philosophy that grew out of the Seanchan culture, it was a direct result of the channelers' oppresion. We all seem to forget that the seanchan channelers terrorized the populace of the not yet formed Empire, and they were eventually overthrown and paid the price for their games. If you were terrorized by a lion, and eventually managed to cage the lion, would you be quick to release it from captivity anywhere near you? I don't agree with the Seanchan policy of chaining channelers, but I understand why/how it came into being.

 

Of course they would. Their entire purpose in coming over was to conquer the entire continent. They see the current nations as nothing more than rebellious provinces who need to be brought into line. It's like China having a peace treaty with Taiwan. They're only going to abide by it while it's too costly to make up a reason to ignore it. Reclaiming the rebellious provinces is their entire reason for crossing the Aryth, so I don't know why anyone thinks that they'd suddenly stop and let a bunch of marath'damane run around causing trouble.

 

And yes, the rationale of why the Seanchan leash chanellers is fairly straightforward and understandable. I have never, however, figured out how some people seem to think that "understandable" and "justifiable" are in any way synonymous with each other. How the hell does what happened a thousand years ago justify their torturing and oppressing people today? It's easy to understand why they do it, but that doesn't mean that they can justify it. They're still just fucking evil.

[Cyf]

I don't think that the leashing of channelers is a philosophy that grew out of the Seanchan culture, it was a direct result of the channelers' oppresion. We all seem to forget that the seanchan channelers terrorized the populace of the not yet formed Empire, and they were eventually overthrown and paid the price for their games. If you were terrorized by a lion, and eventually managed to cage the lion, would you be quick to release it from captivity anywhere near you? I don't agree with the Seanchan policy of chaining channelers, but I understand why/how it came into being.

 

Actually, we don't *know* this. This is what Tuon *said*. But it's pretty apparent that the Seanchan, like the White Tower, have had a lot of revisionist history going on, as well as manipulation by Ishy. I think it likely the continent wasn't as bad as Tuon stated. It would go against Seanchan dogma to have any goodness in channeler-led areas. I think the actuality is far more gray -- perhaps there were some Channeler-led nations (like Manetheren was), some were warring for various reasons, some positive and negative, and Hawkwing's son came over, put a stop to it, and slowly history was 'tweaked'.

[David Selig]

This is what the Guide says about the history of Seanchan before Luthair came:

Before Hawkwing sent Luthair and his armies across the ocean, Seanchan was a constantly shifting quilt of nations of various sizes, most ruled by Aes Sedai. Any attempt to map the history of Seanchan would drive a cartographer to madness, for borders shifted with fre¬quent wars as countries were swallowed whole or divided, and rebel¬lions split off parts of others that sometimes grew into nationhood and sometimes were consumed.

Aes Sedai, who made open use of their power, formed temporary alliances with one another, as when following one of their number who had achieved a throne, but in reality it was every woman for herself, all scheming and plotting for advancement. Indeed, this was the way of everyone, not just Aes Sedai, throughout Seanchan. Those few who were truly faithful to their word were considered fools. Assassination was the most common cause of death among Aes Sedai, and among all who achieved power.

Almost since the Breaking Seanchan had been a land of intrigue and nearly constant warfare. Alliances were always temporary, usually for the space of a war and often not lasting the length of it. It was not uncommon for a nation allied to one side at the beginning of a war to be allied to the other at the end, and in more than a few instances nations shifted allegiance more than once in the course of a war. No nation trusted another.

So most rulers were channellers, and there was no political stability. But I don't see an evidence of systematic oppression of the non-channellers - some of the rulers weren't able to channel. And it's clearly implied that the non-channelling rulers were just a sguilty for the constant wars and instability as the Aes Sedai there.

[Tinkerwrks]

If Aviendha's children are the problem, perhaps she will give them up for Maiden-style adoption so that the Dragon Blooded business never begins.

[nolirion]

I don't think that the leashing of channelers is a philosophy that grew out of the Seanchan culture, it was a direct result of the channelers' oppresion. We all seem to forget that the seanchan channelers terrorized the populace of the not yet formed Empire, and they were eventually overthrown and paid the price for their games. If you were terrorized by a lion, and eventually managed to cage the lion, would you be quick to release it from captivity anywhere near you? I don't agree with the Seanchan policy of chaining channelers, but I understand why/how it came into being.

 

Actually, we don't *know* this. This is what Tuon *said*. But it's pretty apparent that the Seanchan, like the White Tower, have had a lot of revisionist history going on, as well as manipulation by Ishy. I think it likely the continent wasn't as bad as Tuon stated. It would go against Seanchan dogma to have any goodness in channeler-led areas. I think the actuality is far more gray -- perhaps there were some Channeler-led nations (like Manetheren was), some were warring for various reasons, some positive and negative, and Hawkwing's son came over, put a stop to it, and slowly history was 'tweaked'.

In fact it is the result of Isha messing with Hawking and what Hawking offspring met in seanchan (land divide by channeler ) which helped those offspring conquer all .

The whole A'dam thing was not Offspring but the doing of an Aes'Sedai

[Guest Raylion]

Like so many others i joined just to throw my two cents into this forum...

 

First off ... Hello fellow fanatics

... now down to business..

 

The world as depicted in the books is fuedal in nature and controled by monarchs. Nothing about this world is fair or nice or aspires to create a level playing field, much like our own. In fact at no point is there a consideration of free peoples, societies or thought for that matter. For this reason I feel that arguing the 'goodness' or 'wrongness' of the Seanchan is futile. They are a society that was greatly impacted by the events taking place in Seanchan and adopted many of their ways. Collaring Aes Sadai was considered a necessary evil at the time of inception to deal with the fact that the Aes Sedai in that part of the world were the ruling class. They were too powerfull to pull down without the collars.

 

I am not advokating that people should be treated like dogs --- but the exact same thing happens in the nations in Randland and everyone looks over that fact. Yes Andor tries to have good nobles that care for their people -- but it wasn't until Rand showed up that Tear began to have such standards. And to be honest the only reason R P and M have those standards is because they were born poor. I am merely looking at the this world in their eyes. The come from a region that was pretty remote and the crown of Andor ignored them. Well no longer, the children of Two Rivers from here on out will always have a ruler. Which was better, a free people or a now taxed people with no representation, just the hope that their ruler is kind and just.

 

Why is no one arguing the virtues of Seanchan society... there is no war. Period. Laws are enforced, and common people feel safe walking all roads at night. Bandits are hunted down and crime drops to zero, without pure oppression. Coutries are allowed to carry on business as ususal as long as they acknowledge Seachan authority and a little tax -- reminds me of Andor.

 

Yes they enslave Aes Sedai - I think it should be dealt with like everyone else -- but that is from the eyes of living in this REAL world looking in. The nobles are just as back biting as Andor and Carhien... Elyane had a poison needle in her throne, death planned to be moments after she took the crown. Are the Saenchan any more wicked than this?? Yeah thats right they enslave Aes Sedai... that one keeps coming up.

 

This is not Fasism. Fasism demands a singular identity. Simply swearing fealty is not enough for fascism, a fascist has to believe in Seanchan. No this is an imperilistic government that will have no choice but to fracture and erode once they have claimed the world. Having nothing left to conquer it is inevitable.

 

And there whole war engine that makes them great relies on the fact that women that can channel are controlled by those that CANNOT. This one simple lie is strong enough to destroy them. We have all seen that when handlers are shown that they can channel they demand the collar. Who will be left to hold these collars? This remains the single easiest flaw to expliot and annoce to there empire. Totally destroying their capacity to make war.

 

It is trajic that they treat damane like dogs instead of humans. And it never tells how long the damane live for. (at least i cannot recall this fact.)

 

----

 

The visions show a few definite things.

 

A) in the chapter Court of the Suns the Aiel were strong enough to grind the Seachen to a stalemate. But they had lost Rhuidean.

 

B) in the same chapter two pages before on 726 it states that

the real turing point in the war had been the entry of the other nations. After that, Seancham had been able to seize wetlander peoples and cull more channelers from thier ranks.

 

C) pg 728

... When the Aiel had destroyed the Seanchan, the world would see what the Aiel had learned. The wetland rulers would wish they had been more generous.

it seems to me the Aiel are very clearly planning on attacking the rest of world once they are done with the Seanchan. If the Shaido are any indication of what happens when the Aiel go on an illogical rampage then surely this is not a vaible alternative to the Seanchan domination. Because both peoples start to look very similar.

 

D) I found it interesting in the eyes of Padra that the Aiel had camps in Arad Doman so far from the waste in one generation. And what were the Seanchan getting close to that prompted her to attack them?

 

E) during the time of Padra it clearly states that the old empress - Toun - had nearly reached an agreement with them.

 

F) Nakomi -- I find very interesting and very subtle. Too much so. She held herself aloft, as if she was regal. She DEFINITELY knew the ways of the Aiel, i don't think anyone could fool Aviendha for too long - this person had at least studied the culture. She defered as necessary but held herself aloft. Carried no weapons but was traveling near Rhuidean, and had a few herbs on her for tea. Not travelling with family.

 

G) Nakomi when asked about her sept states --

I am far from my roof, yet not far at all. Perhaps it is far from me. I cannot answer your question apprentice, for it is not my place to give this truth.

-- HELLO BIG RED BUS .. giant freakin Purple elephant on this one. I have no clue what it is exaclty but this was important, and information was hinted at here. I personally think she was from the future or the past, if you accept time travel in Randland -or- that Nakomi is from this time and that her intentions are benevolent. Either makes the statement a bit more credible, unfortunately I do not believe Nakomi is being benevolent.

 

H) when suggesting that the test of the three fold land was as dangerous as the wetlands seemed to be then the threefold land was a proving ground or anvil to shape the aiel. This is an agruement to Aviendha - Nakomi apologizes - but Aviendha states she has earned no toh for speaking wise words. ( Con artists use this same script )

 

 

-- AFTER sipping the tea

 

I)

"And so, the Three Fold Land was our punishment. We came here to grow so that we could meet out toh

'Yes,' Aviendha said. It felt clear to her." pg. 606

 

J) Avi chooses not to argue with Nakomi when she suggests that they should leave the three-fold land.

the Aiel belonged in the Three-Fold Land.

-- why not argue this point, if words of wisdom earn no toh then words of foolishness should be argued and simple truthes should be spoken.

 

K) The roots cooked too quickly. -- Hello Big Freakin' Red Bus

Then Nakomi seasons Aviendha's food and hands her a plate.

 

L) Aviendha a skilled Maiden of the spear could not find one track of the woman. When she returned all traces of her existance were gone.

 

I say Nakomi is Cyndane, Lanfear. There to play with a mistress of her love LTT. I think she used compulsion on Aviendha very subtley and brought her to her way of thinking. Suddenly it felt clear... and after that point she no longer argued with Nakomi's suggestions, even though she did disagree with them. Or maybe Moghedien but that seems unlikely to me.

 

My only issue how did she use compulsion without using the one power to set the weaves. But we know Lanfear is alive based on the epilogue.

 

--- please comment on this post.

 

p.s. -- and why is Padra constantly channelling an issue??? seems pretty cool to me. I am glad someone has that ability.

[Rand Skywalker]

If Aviendha's children are the problem, perhaps she will give them up for Maiden-style adoption so that the Dragon Blooded business never begins.

 

There's still the problem of them constantly channeling (although the text is not clear if this is only the daughter whom Avi is seeing through or the others too).

[Emily_Sedai]

 

I find it interesting that everyone assumes that it is the Seanchan who would violate a peace treaty... the Empire calls the citizens on the Randland side of the ocean oathbreakers, and I can't think of a single instance where the Seanchan violated a treaty or agreement. Even when Tuon is kidnapped by a rogue in the middle of the night and dragged across various nations, she never once thought of breaking her word. I think it would stand to reason that the Dragon's peace would not be violated by them once they agreed to it.

 

You know, the Empire is one of the only 'growth' cultures that appear in the WOT besides the Aiel. All of the nations in Randland seem to be shrinking over the centuries...

 

I don't think that the leashing of channelers is a philosophy that grew out of the Seanchan culture, it was a direct result of the channelers' oppresion. We all seem to forget that the seanchan channelers terrorized the populace of the not yet formed Empire, and they were eventually overthrown and paid the price for their games. If you were terrorized by a lion, and eventually managed to cage the lion, would you be quick to release it from captivity anywhere near you? I don't agree with the Seanchan policy of chaining channelers, but I understand why/how it came into being.

 

Of course they would. Their entire purpose in coming over was to conquer the entire continent. They see the current nations as nothing more than rebellious provinces who need to be brought into line. It's like China having a peace treaty with Taiwan. They're only going to abide by it while it's too costly to make up a reason to ignore it. Reclaiming the rebellious provinces is their entire reason for crossing the Aryth, so I don't know why anyone thinks that they'd suddenly stop and let a bunch of marath'damane run around causing trouble.

 

And yes, the rationale of why the Seanchan leash chanellers is fairly straightforward and understandable. I have never, however, figured out how some people seem to think that "understandable" and "justifiable" are in any way synonymous with each other. How the hell does what happened a thousand years ago justify their torturing and oppressing people today? It's easy to understand why they do it, but that doesn't mean that they can justify it. They're still just fucking evil.

 

Understandable helps to determine justifiable when you look at the context. What is justifiable in 2010 may be different then what was justifiable in 1010. Not for anything, but for about a third of the United States' history, there was slavery. Does that mean that the government and citizens of the U.S. from its founding until 1865 (approx) were just 'fucking evil?' Or maybe, there is more that has to be considered and thought about, such as the world the wheel of time story occurs in, as pointed out later in a great first post.

 

Again though, do you have a single instance of the Seanchan Empire breaking their word or breaking a treaty? If not, you have a pretty weak arguement that they would attack other nations once they had the upper hand. Where is the proof of this assertion?

 

On a side note, the Randland nations records for dealing with channelers wasn't much better at times, and frequently worse. Amador anyone? Tear? Egwene even laments that Aes Sedai aren't exactly respected in most nations, thanks mainly to their inteference with other nations, to the point that Elaida felt 'justified' kidnapping various rulers. Perhaps the Seanchan Empire, and its people, feel it's justfied to leash channelers in order to provide stability to the Empire, and stability to its people. Why have the people of conquered Seanchan lands been so quick to accept the invaders, even if they disagree with the leashing of channelers? Why are the tinkers so eager to enter Seanchan controlled lands?

[Tervvo]

Ok.. this thing has been buggin me a lot. There was one POV in which Avi's daughter or grand daughter or someone clearer said that the Seanchan Empress made the Dragon Reborn kneel before her... Does that mean that Rand will have to kneel before Tuon??? I srsly dont like this. But with Rand becoming all goody goody its possible.. I'll be really angry if Rand kneels to the Seanchan

 

That's not going to happen.. the Seanchan's Prophecy that was corrupted by Ishy says that the Dragon Reborn will kneel before the Crystal Throne... it's been alluded to so much that it's obvious that something else is going to happen. The real prophecy only says that the Dragon Reborn will bind the Nine Moons to him.

 

 

I am thinking it's possible for both things to happen ,Rand binds her to him and then he bows to her anyway to speed up Seanchan participation.

Hopefully he won't ally with the Seanchan the way they are now.

[Tervvo]

 

I find it interesting that everyone assumes that it is the Seanchan who would violate a peace treaty... the Empire calls the citizens on the Randland side of the ocean oathbreakers, and I can't think of a single instance where the Seanchan violated a treaty or agreement. Even when Tuon is kidnapped by a rogue in the middle of the night and dragged across various nations, she never once thought of breaking her word. I think it would stand to reason that the Dragon's peace would not be violated by them once they agreed to it.

 

You know, the Empire is one of the only 'growth' cultures that appear in the WOT besides the Aiel. All of the nations in Randland seem to be shrinking over the centuries...

 

I don't think that the leashing of channelers is a philosophy that grew out of the Seanchan culture, it was a direct result of the channelers' oppresion. We all seem to forget that the seanchan channelers terrorized the populace of the not yet formed Empire, and they were eventually overthrown and paid the price for their games. If you were terrorized by a lion, and eventually managed to cage the lion, would you be quick to release it from captivity anywhere near you? I don't agree with the Seanchan policy of chaining channelers, but I understand why/how it came into being.

 

Of course they would. Their entire purpose in coming over was to conquer the entire continent. They see the current nations as nothing more than rebellious provinces who need to be brought into line. It's like China having a peace treaty with Taiwan. They're only going to abide by it while it's too costly to make up a reason to ignore it. Reclaiming the rebellious provinces is their entire reason for crossing the Aryth, so I don't know why anyone thinks that they'd suddenly stop and let a bunch of marath'damane run around causing trouble.

 

And yes, the rationale of why the Seanchan leash chanellers is fairly straightforward and understandable. I have never, however, figured out how some people seem to think that "understandable" and "justifiable" are in any way synonymous with each other. How the hell does what happened a thousand years ago justify their torturing and oppressing people today? It's easy to understand why they do it, but that doesn't mean that they can justify it. They're still just fucking evil.

 

Understandable helps to determine justifiable when you look at the context. What is justifiable in 2010 may be different then what was justifiable in 1010. Not for anything, but for about a third of the United States' history, there was slavery. Does that mean that the government and citizens of the U.S. from its founding until 1865 (approx) were just 'fucking evil?' Or maybe, there is more that has to be considered and thought about, such as the world the wheel of time story occurs in, as pointed out later in a great first post.

 

The Seanchan break every one of their damane and treat them lower than animals,they also want to do so too every channeler alive.

It isn't anything like justifiable.

It can be rationalized sure, but you can't justify something like that.

As for the US ,they recognized it as an evil within and ripped it out with brute force.

This is more akin to the Nazis committing genocide during and pre-WW2 and yes they were evil.

[metaphor]

 

So most rulers were channellers, and there was no political stability. But I don't see an evidence of systematic oppression of the non-channellers - some of the rulers weren't able to channel. And it's clearly implied that the non-channelling rulers were just a sguilty for the constant wars and instability as the Aes Sedai there.

 

 

all scheming and plotting for advancement. Indeed' date=' this was the way of everyone, not just Aes Sedai, throughout Seanchan. Assassination was the most common cause of death among Aes Sedai, and among all who achieved power.

Almost since the Breaking Seanchan had been a land of intrigue and nearly constant warfare. Alliances were always temporary, usually for the space of a war and often not lasting the length of it[/quote']

 

It seems not much has changed. Intrigue, plotting, scheming and assassination are the way of power in Seanchan. Tuon became the heir because she was the best at it since childhood.

The only thing that's changed is that now the Seanchan are faithful to their word and follow their monarch. But still there are constant rebellions.

[Emily_Sedai]

 

I find it interesting that everyone assumes that it is the Seanchan who would violate a peace treaty... the Empire calls the citizens on the Randland side of the ocean oathbreakers, and I can't think of a single instance where the Seanchan violated a treaty or agreement. Even when Tuon is kidnapped by a rogue in the middle of the night and dragged across various nations, she never once thought of breaking her word. I think it would stand to reason that the Dragon's peace would not be violated by them once they agreed to it.

 

You know, the Empire is one of the only 'growth' cultures that appear in the WOT besides the Aiel. All of the nations in Randland seem to be shrinking over the centuries...

 

I don't think that the leashing of channelers is a philosophy that grew out of the Seanchan culture, it was a direct result of the channelers' oppresion. We all seem to forget that the seanchan channelers terrorized the populace of the not yet formed Empire, and they were eventually overthrown and paid the price for their games. If you were terrorized by a lion, and eventually managed to cage the lion, would you be quick to release it from captivity anywhere near you? I don't agree with the Seanchan policy of chaining channelers, but I understand why/how it came into being.

 

Of course they would. Their entire purpose in coming over was to conquer the entire continent. They see the current nations as nothing more than rebellious provinces who need to be brought into line. It's like China having a peace treaty with Taiwan. They're only going to abide by it while it's too costly to make up a reason to ignore it. Reclaiming the rebellious provinces is their entire reason for crossing the Aryth, so I don't know why anyone thinks that they'd suddenly stop and let a bunch of marath'damane run around causing trouble.

 

And yes, the rationale of why the Seanchan leash chanellers is fairly straightforward and understandable. I have never, however, figured out how some people seem to think that "understandable" and "justifiable" are in any way synonymous with each other. How the hell does what happened a thousand years ago justify their torturing and oppressing people today? It's easy to understand why they do it, but that doesn't mean that they can justify it. They're still just fucking evil.

 

Understandable helps to determine justifiable when you look at the context. What is justifiable in 2010 may be different then what was justifiable in 1010. Not for anything, but for about a third of the United States' history, there was slavery. Does that mean that the government and citizens of the U.S. from its founding until 1865 (approx) were just 'fucking evil?' Or maybe, there is more that has to be considered and thought about, such as the world the wheel of time story occurs in, as pointed out later in a great first post.

 

The Seanchan break every one of their damane and treat them lower than animals,they also want to do so too every channeler alive.

It isn't anything like justifiable.

It can be rationalized sure, but you can't justify something like that.

As for the US ,they recognized it as an evil within and ripped it out with brute force.

This is more akin to the Nazis committing genocide during and pre-WW2 and yes they were evil.

 

Alrighty... hmm, how about the Roman Empire? Were they all 'fucking evil'? Egypt? Sparta? I can come up tons of examples if you so desire... Again, consider the context. You are not in 2010 of our world. You are in the third age of the WOT, a feudal society more akin to the dark ages, with most people poorly educated and a noble, ruling class. As previously pointed out, there is no concept of universal human rights, equal rights, democracy, etc. Amador kills channelers. Tear forbids them. Shara keeps them ignorant and tatooted to be identified. The Aes Sedai themselves hound channelers who are not associated with the White Tower, and use force to prevent other groups from existing. They are the law of the land in their territory of Tar Valon, and even a woman who makes the mistake of wearing a shawl in the city can be subject to an unpleasant experience.

 

How about the Aiel, who enslave Cairhein people when found and sell them as slaves, simply for being decendents of people who lived in Lamen's kingdom. Is that justifiable? Why are we not repulsed by the Aiel?

 

All that I'm trying to point out is that other nations have equally horrible practices when viewed from a modern context. However, not so horrible when viewed from the perspective of the world of the WOT.

[lenardo]

Timeline-wise, did Aviendha go through before or after Rand's transformation on Dragonmount?

 

If it was before, then perhaps she saw the future as it would be unless The Dragon reconciled himself with his role. Had she gone through after that, she would have seen a different future.

 

Did the Rand in Aviendha's future really seem like a Peace loving kind of guy to you? The Rand Pre-VoG doesn't seem like a guy that would set up a Dragon's Peace.

 

Desiring of peace, maybe. Yes, even Pre-VoG I think he would still have set up the Dragon's Peace, but the methods and outcome would have been markedly different. Pre-VoG, it would have gone down like his initial meeting with Tuon. Demanding peace and (unlike with Tuon) ultimately getting it through sheer power of will or through fear. This way, the peace only lasts as long as the Dragon. Post-VoG, he would bind and unite people to peace. An enduring peace that would outlast him. A peace that all nations had willingly entered into and would maintain for as long as the Memory of The Dragon persisted, not just the presence of The Dragon.

 

timeline wise- lets see how close i am:

 

Avi leaves the morning/night after the attack by trollocs then rand travels to bandar eban -right after getting there is the tell tuon falme meeting- travel to ebou dar,- meet with reps, get reply- ~half a day. TUON needs ~4 or 5 days to get to Falme by Raken/To'raken (or boat)- No traveling- no mention of rand doing the travel thing for her via ashaman.

finds out where greandal is.

 

meets tuon, fails to impress her. leaves

next day/later that afternoon does in "graendal" via balefire

 

says failed at banda eban leaves, goes to tear

2 days at tear - according to ch 44? beginning nyn pov.

nyn finds where perrin is the 2nd/3rd day, cadsuane/AS fetches Tam - that night rand has meltdown

he travels to ebou dar, camps with traveling people,

wanders in ebou dar- has fit, gates to dragonmount and thinks revelation that night?

 

Rand's meltdown is ~9 days after Avi has left rand and traveled to Cold rock hold.

 

from book 4 - by PEDDLER CARAVAN - RHuidhen is 12 days travel away

 

say avi takes a week to get there- 7 days

 

rands meltdown/revalation is ongoing while she is in the crystals the first time.

[Demon_AS]

With regards to Aviendha's vision of the future, I think there's something very important people are forgetting: the future and the past are two totally different things. The difference is simple: the past is immutable, because what happened, happened, and with the exception of balefire, nothing can change that. The future, on the other hand, is the exact opposite. The only thing one can say about the future is that each future that is predicted has a probability-figure attached to it which determines whether it'll come true or not.

 

That being said, I think we need to look at Aviendha's arc as a whole. She is the pioneering Wise One - the first one to be raised as such who can channel in the series (that we know of). She is also in a unique position, being the lover of the Dragon Reborn, and it's obvious that all the other Wise Ones look at her with pride and expect her to fulfill the vast potential we've been told she has.

 

So.

 

Just before being sent off to Rhuidean, she was being tested by Amys and the rest with questions about the future. On her journey there, she meets this enigmatic figure of Nakomi who only asks her more questions. Then she sees a horrific vision of the future shown by the glass columns. Is it just me, or is this too much of a coincidence not to be significant? If you're reading this, you're now thinking, "Obviously man, that's what this entire debate is about".

 

Well, why does that future being shown have to be real? I think it's the nature of the ter'angreal to teach and to guide - which is why the previous test to become a Wise One/Clan Chief was to face the collective Aiel shame in their past. I think what Aviendha was shown in the glass columns is a possible metaphor to answer her questions about what needs to be done for the Aiel now. After all, one of the big questions is what happens after the DO is defeated/imprisoned/whatever?

 

I don't think it's necessarily a vision of the future, if you see what I mean.

[knutz]

The reasoning behind the Seanchan "Ownership" of the channellers is that the Aes Sedae, as channellers, would make all people their property.

 

Considering how the Aes Sedae treat people in Randland, even how Egwene treats people now - they're either poor saps who need to be looked after or rabid dogs that need to be brought to heel - the Seanchan were right in their thinking.

 

Their methods, well, what choice do they have? Here they are:

1) Enslave them

2) Kill them

3) Accept that they are owned by the Aes Sedae.

 

The Aes Sedae in Randland will take the opportunity to try owning the world from the background (sort of like in trust?) in the aftermath of TG. In order to do this, Egwene plans to control Rand, the Kin, the Windfinders, the Wise ones, the world rulers. She's already thinking of enslaving the world herself.

 

 

 

OK - Aviendha

 

What she saw was the result of the Aiel breaking the treaty with the seanchan.

 

She thinks that fighting TG will meet the Toh of the Aiel, but what does that mean?

 

Once you have met your Toh it is as if the transgression had not happened in the first place. For the Aiel, that means jietoh is no longer required and they must return to the covenant - the Way of the leaf. If this does not happen, the Aiel will fail.

[Tom Sawyer]

 

On a side note, the Randland nations records for dealing with channelers wasn't much better at times, and frequently worse. Amador anyone? Tear? Egwene even laments that Aes Sedai aren't exactly respected in most nations, thanks mainly to their inteference with other nations, to the point that Elaida felt 'justified' kidnapping various rulers. Perhaps the Seanchan Empire, and its people, feel it's justfied to leash channelers in order to provide stability to the Empire, and stability to its people. Why have the people of conquered Seanchan lands been so quick to accept the invaders, even if they disagree with the leashing of channelers? Why are the tinkers so eager to enter Seanchan controlled lands?

 

Are you actually serious? You're using the Children of Light as an example of the level of morality people should be judged against? You're using Elaida as a ruler to be compared to? There have been some weak arguments over the years defending the Seanchan (somewhat necessarily, since there aren't any strong ones), but that's near the top. People are judged based on their own actions, not based on the fact that there are other shitty assholes out there too. It's not a question of whether they "feel" justified about torturing and enslaving people, but whether they "are" justified in doing so. The Nazis felt that they were justified in exterminating the Jews, the Soviets felt that they were justified in wiping out anyone who disagree with the Party, the Tutsis felt that they were justified in slaughtering all the Hutus. Everyone who does something evil feels that they are justified in doing so - the question is whether or not they are right. In the Seanchan's case, the answer is a definitive no.

 

In terms of the Tinkers, they do well in a fascist society since they no their place and don't try to make anything out of their lives outside of their predetermined place, so nobody bothers them. Unless of course, they look at someone funny. Or they get in someone's way and don't move aside quickly enough. Or someone's bored and decides to send some soldiers to to kill a bunch of them for kicks. The same holds true for others - fascists are very good at providing order and security at the expense of everything else - it's kind of their entire thing. If you're not interested in doing anything except what the government tells you to do and don't mind someone kicking down your door in the middle of the night because you might have said something that slightly differs from official government policy in the hearing of someone who'd talk to one of the numerous secret police who'll execute your entire family based on a rumour of disorder, then you'll have a lovely time in a society like that. On the other hand, if that's not your idea of a fun time, you might want to try somewhere else.

 

The Seanchan suck in every way, shape and form. The only thing that Avi's vision does is help demonstrate the society that the books have been writing about.

[Rand Skywalker]

The Seanchan suck in every way, shape and form. The only thing that Avi's vision does is help demonstrate the society that the books have been writing about.

 

One of the (many) things I detest about the Seanchan is their singleminded focus on conquest and belief in their Creator-given right to rule any and all others and the superiority of their beliefs, customs, governments, etc. (Such as Tuon totally dismissing what Mat says in favor of her "omens").

 

The vision was this to its ultimate conclusion. Of course, the Aiel were hugely at fault, most especially the one who pulled Andor into the conflict under false pretenses,

[Tom Sawyer]

The Seanchan suck in every way, shape and form. The only thing that Avi's vision does is help demonstrate the society that the books have been writing about.

 

One of the (many) things I detest about the Seanchan is their singleminded focus on conquest and belief in their Creator-given right to rule any and all others and the superiority of their beliefs, customs, governments, etc. (Such as Tuon totally dismissing what Mat says in favor of her "omens").

 

The vision was this to its ultimate conclusion. Of course, the Aiel were hugely at fault, most especially the one who pulled Andor into the conflict under false pretenses,

 

But, given what we've seen about the Seanchan, I can't see how they'd have been satisfied with half the continent. It's totally at odds with everything we've been told about them. These wars were inevitable and if the Aiel provided an excuse for it, then that's all it was - an excuse. They would have started the war sooner rather than later regardless and it was probably a good strategy for the Aiel to get a jumpstart on it while they felt they had a position of strength.

[Rand Skywalker]

The Seanchan suck in every way, shape and form. The only thing that Avi's vision does is help demonstrate the society that the books have been writing about.

 

One of the (many) things I detest about the Seanchan is their singleminded focus on conquest and belief in their Creator-given right to rule any and all others and the superiority of their beliefs, customs, governments, etc. (Such as Tuon totally dismissing what Mat says in favor of her "omens").

 

The vision was this to its ultimate conclusion. Of course, the Aiel were hugely at fault, most especially the one who pulled Andor into the conflict under false pretenses,

 

But, given what we've seen about the Seanchan, I can't see how they'd have been satisfied with half the continent. It's totally at odds with everything we've been told about them. These wars were inevitable and if the Aiel provided an excuse for it, then that's all it was - an excuse. They would have started the war sooner rather than later regardless and it was probably a good strategy for the Aiel to get a jumpstart on it while they felt they had a position of strength.

 

I can see that. Probably the best thing would have been to make a MASSIVE strike with everything non-Seanchan and hopefully send them back to their own continent. (then sink said continent)

[Byzantine279]

The answer is simple: Get Tuon (Fortuna) in a situation where she MUST channel to save her life, she will no matter how much she dislikes the idea. That should be enough to force Seanchan attitudes to change, afterall their god-like empress being a Damane isn't viable when there is no one left to replace her and the world is literally at its end.

 

That or stop everyone from managing to die young, we KNOW Avi is in the final scene, all she has to do to stop that fighting is to not get herself killed, channelers live long lives.