Discuss Aviendha's Arc

[Cyf]

I agree that this vision can be changed. As for how, I also agree that there are two facets: One, the Aiel must be part of the Dragon's Peace; and Two, they must have a purpose. As someone else mentioned, having the Aiel be peacekeepers would work well, to my mind. Sworn to peace and able to use their talents in an honorable fashion, if not the way they were before. They must change.

 

I don't agree, however, that taking back the Way of the Leaf is the way to do it. The world isn't like the Age of Legends. There's lots of war and such. The Way of the Leaf is admirable, but unless the world goes all peaceful, then it just won't return to my mind.

[nolirion]

I agree that this vision can be changed. As for how, I also agree that there are two facets: One, the Aiel must be part of the Dragon's Peace; and Two, they must have a purpose. As someone else mentioned, having the Aiel be peacekeepers would work well, to my mind. Sworn to peace and able to use their talents in an honorable fashion, if not the way they were before. They must change.

 

I don't agree, however, that taking back the Way of the Leaf is the way to do it. The world isn't like the Age of Legends. There's lots of war and such. The Way of the Leaf is admirable, but unless the world goes all peaceful, then it just won't return to my mind.

I think is will come done to the real purpose of the Aiel .

[Emily_Sedai]

I've actually enjoyed reading this thread, however I think we've forgotten a few things about the Wheel. The Aiel, no matter what, will fall at some point. The Seanchan, at some point, will fall. Andor will fall. Tear will fall. The dragon will be forgotten, the one power will be forgotten, and the Dark One, the greatest evil known in the world, will be forgotten. There is no United States in Randland, there is no Russia, nor even a country called Andorussia. Happy endings are irrelevant to me, as no matter what, the Wheel will turn, our age will come and go, the AOL will come and go, etc.

 

As for the Seanchan taking on Randland: we've already seen that Tuon was all about getting a copy of the new crossbows from Mat, and was perfectly willing to do what needed to be done to secure the technology. I have *little* doubt that the technology for creating the dragons would flow to them 1-2-3, especially over 20 years of peace, so that is pretty irrelevant. Let's face it, the Seanchan, love or hate em, run an efficient empire. While life and civilization in Randland has been receeding, collapsing, and abandoning land, the Seanchan have not, to the point that they can launch a complete invansion of a completely different continent and knock over countries all over the place. Evan Rand seems to have his hands full with them. As for them adapting to circles or whatever, we have to remember that during the visions, it was a generation or two before Andor was even pulled into the war... talk about time to adapt *laugh*

 

About Seanchan culture: You know, we're all pretty fast to jump on the condem Seanchan bandwagon. They were written as repulsive in the first couple of books, and it seems as though the Creator softened his stance on them over time, or at least, showed that the picture was not as black and white as Egween and others wished it to be. Think about if you lived in a culture where you were dominated by a group of people with a similiar trait. Their machinations led to a continuous state of war, back-stabbing, instability. Now, after at time, you manage to defeat them, and take control of them. Would you be quick to 'release their collars' knowing the history of them in your society? Would you be quick to trust them?? I know I wouldn't be... Look at it from their perspective.

 

Another thing to think about in regards to Avi's vision: individual threads are irrelevant. We saw time and again with the rise of multiple false dragons, that the patter *required* a dragon. If Rand didn't declare himself, then someone else would have been pushed into the role of the dragon. I'm not sure that Avi's actions will affect the pattern. The weaving of the age lace is pre-set, focusing around taveren as necessary. If that is destined to be the future, with the Aiel being hunted like animals, I don't believe Avi would be able to change it. That's a big if however.

 

Alrighty, just my two cents. Happy discussion all!

[Danny7185]

I'm sure someone has brought it up before, but I think the Seanchan Empire would crumble once it's known that Sul'dam can be damane.

 

When they find out that the Empress and only remaining member of the royal family could channel, it's all over. The very foundation of their culture would be turned on its head.

 

 

It would be similar to when the Aiel discovered that they once followed the Way of the Leaf. There will be multiple divisions amongst the Seanchan that will destroy them. There will be the sides that are blind and refuse to believe it, similar to the Shaido, Brotherless, and those taken by the Bleakness. Then there will be the ones who accept it and can make peace with it like the current Aiel trying to save a remnant of a remnant. You take the Seanchen who can change like Alivia, Leilwan, and Tylee and team them up with the people conscripted into the Seanchan army who want out and all of Randland and beat them down until they run back across the Aryth Ocean like the Shaido who went back to the Three Fold Land.

 

I just hope for Mat's sake that Tuon/Fortuna is one of the ones who can accept the change.

[pattyruss]

Perhaps the most interesting thing about Aviendha's trip through the Ter'angreal in this book is that the Ter'angreal provides Aviendha with what may be the only vision/prophecy/etc in the WOTverse that has not been predetermined or fated to occur. In every other prophecy or vision that Min has had or with Mat's and Moiraine's trips to see the Aelfinn/Eelfinn that we have read we know that, that the events dictated in those prophecies, visions, etc, will unfold according to that prophecy/vision/etc, (although the prophecies admittedly, do not always unfold in the ways we thought and/or do not always affect those who we thought the prophecies were referring to. However they still unfold as dictated by that prophecy) What makes Aviendha's vision so unique and exciting (or terrifying depending on the outcome) is that there seems to be a choice as to how the future will unfold. The destruction of the Aiel is not necessarily fated to occur, giving Aviendha and others the ability to choose their own fates rather than have the pattern already decide it for them.

[Tervvo]

One could take his lack of including the Aiel in the Dragon's Peace, and their subsequent destruction save a few individuals as a remnant of a remnant.

 

 

One could ,but it is a real stretch to say Rand saved a remnant of a remnant when it's that far off into the future.

[Tervvo]

Yeah the Seanchan aren't nice. Why do people reckon it would be nice under their rule? There's no freedom with them. You can be property or a soldier or whatever is picked for you. Phaw! I rather live in Mordor.

Hum i do not agree , for simple folk and even some channeler who does not have the spark life is good , their culture have obligation and right but that a choice .

The whole problem is that their prosperity is fund on slavery and that just about it, slavery is not right .

And like i said before Seanchan way open a path where the DO would win .

 

There isn't any choice with the Seanchan. If I'm not mistaken a character from Seanchan revealed before that their career path is chosen for them and the only way to get real advancement is through miltary exploits. I'm not claiming the system in Randland is perfect but it is better. The Seanchan empire doesn't provide stability either, there has been mentions of numerous revolts and conflicts.

 

Sul'dam have their path chosen for them. That seems to be about it. And remember, in Randland your future is essentially chosen by birth- if you're a Lord, great, if a farmer that's what you seem to do (with a few exceptions like Tam and Rand). We've not really seen that many average people that don't basically have pre-determined future based on family. Also, we've seen far fewer self-made nobles in the Westlands than among the Seanchan (despite our limited view of them). And most of the slaves of the Seanchan appear to be bureaucrats and wield a pretty significant amount of power. Slave-wise it seems only the da'covale that were formerly scheming to assassinate the Empress (Suroth) and damane actually get a hard-life. And the secret police seem to pay more attention to the Blood than the common person.

 

Not that I really like the Seanchan but, in terms of comparison, I think they aren't as bad as we all like to think. We go "slavery, oh noes!" when in reality a ruler in Randland seems to have authority on par w.r.t those not of birth. I mean, look at how Elayne treats Mat in aCoS. She expects him to do exactly as she says and to give her what she asks (foxhead). And she's a liberal ruler who believes in a social contract between rulers and the ruled. Tear and Cairhien are more typical cases of how commoners are treated. Its not well.

 

 

They are pretty bad for the leashing of channelers alone.

Fortuona commonly came here to watch damane being worked or broken. It soothed her.

And again Fortuona enjoyed breaking marath'damane as much as her brother enjoyed training wild grolm.

A super wickedness built right into the society.

[analyticalkeys]

Just as a bit of a change of subject here.. in this vision, why do you guys think Rand didn't offer his Peace to the Aiel? I'm a little confused there.. I figured he would just force everyone in the world to be at peace, lol.

[ravenprincess]

 

 

Another thought. Yoda says to Luke in Star Wars that the future is always emotion; so the future she saw could've been the product of what she was thinking on her way to Rhuidean and the emotions that came with those thoughts.

Umm...Yoda says that the future is always "in motion"...not emotion.

 

Sorry, Star Wars geek! Know all of the lines by heart...

[MierinWru]

 

Umm...Yoda says that "in motion" the future is... not emotion.

 

There, fixed it for you.

[Sventity]

This seems to be where most of the Seanchan speculation is happening, so I'll throw my thoughts here since they correlate to Aviendha's vision. It seems to me that this all hinges on Rand, rather than Aviendha. The Seanchan prophecies say he MUST bow to the crystal throne, but I still don't see that happening. And new Rand just wouldn't let the situation with the Seanchan go unresolved before the Last Battle; he has a plan for them. He's so determined to leave something of value after he's gone that there's simply no chance of him leaving this side of the world broken and ready for Seanchan domination.

 

In Egwene's Dream where she sees him break the ropes around a crystal sphere and it shattering apart, I assumed that had to do with the Crystal Throne and the Empire's fall due to him severing the customs (ropes) that bound it together. I know Egwene deciphered the vision as something else, but that was my interpretation. And quite frankly, Mat has a role to play yet with Tuon. He's not the Prince of Ravens for nothing. I wouldn't be surprised if the revelation that Tuon and all sul'dam can channel becomes a plot point that is revealed, but isn't fully resolved in the final book. I can see Tuon discovering the pleasures of channeling and bonding Mat (as was hinted at in this book) and the society breaking down. Chances are it will happen much like what happened to the Aiel. Mat and Tuon will work to forge a new nation with those who can't handle the truth either returning to Seanchan or causing turmoil in Randland. I honestly think this will be part of the story that will not be fully resolved, based both on Nikola's Foretelling and RJ's assurance that the story won't end with everything all honky-dory.

 

How this affects the Aiel I'm still not entirely sure of. It seems to me that Aviendha's visions are just a probable outcome to a united Seanchan force after the Last Battle. The Aiel would be the final holdouts to their domination, and thus are a vehicle to Aviendha's revelation as to what the Aiel role should be after their toh has been met. My bet is she will attempt to ensure Rand resolves the Seanchan issue (also giving her a chance to conceive the quad kids) lest the world be overrun by their armies. I wonder if the Aiel being excluded from the "Dragon's Peace" could also be a metaphor for if they continue their battling ways. Aviendha is convinced that the Aiel are becoming too soft in the Wetlands, but I have a feeling she'll come to a revelation about that in the final book that involves a theme about how the Aiel must embrace a new kind of strength, and may in fact start them on a path back to the Way of the Leaf and find a new kind of honor in the process.

 

Who knows.

[smileyman]

There are far more da'mane than their are Aes Sedai or Asha'man.

 

I doubt this. Seanchan only leash sparkers and they can't leash men*. There are several times more learners than sparkers. All it would take for AS/AM to outnumber damane is to recruit more efficiently than the old WT - as they already do

 

Really? Numerous times we hear how the White Tower is practically empty, and how women die every single year because they're not taught to channel in time. The Seanchan never miss a single girl who can channel, nor a man for that matter. Now with saidin being cleansed I'm sure they'll roll those male channelers up into their army as well, and once they start taking over countries they'll be able to draw from those resources.

 

And Aiel also have male channelers in this future, so...

 

As will the Seanchan.

 

There is no way to adapt and compensate for the circles and a'dam precludes damane from linking. The only way to have a link-like combination of power is if the sul'dam is also an active channeler.

No way? Really? overwhelming numbers is one way, and the Seanchan have that in spades. A channeler can only do so much, and being linked drains them even faster. Yeah they'll be more powerful to begin with but they'll run out of energy faster, leaving them vulnerable.

[QueenKittyKat]

I read this earlier in this thread, but didn't see anyone pick it up, so was curious on it myself.

 

People have speculated that Avi's future visions are of all three guys dead or some combination of them, but what someone wrote earlier made me wonder. Timeline wise, it could almost fit that Avi was having her visions of the future while Mat was in ToG. We know from Moiraine's bond with Lan that being in ToG with the doors gone somehow makes one no longer part of the wheel's pattern. It saw her as dead. And Mat and the others entered through the Tower itself. What if at that moment the pattern saw Mat as dead, as well as the others? Putting aside Moiraine is still needed to help Rand, I happen to believe Mat is key in many things involved the Seanchan. He binds Tuon to Ran, but also can't stand women being mistreated, even Aes Sedai.

 

It may just be that the pillars showed Avi a warning, maybe a possible of what could be, but depending on the exact timeline of when she stepped in and when Mat was in ToG (because we know Perrin arrives before Elayne and she arrives the day before the meeting, so there's still a timeline possibility) it could be a future the pillars saw happening if 1) Mat wasn't around 2) Moiraine was still gone and 3) Avi didn't step up and speak for the Aiel.

 

Also, a quick mention on the circles theory. Certainly I agree circles are powerful, but you're forgetting something special about Rand. Even with all he did, the Asha'man there were in awe not at what he was doing, but at how many weaves he could do at once. That was, and still is Rand's major power umph. Most can barely manage two or three at once, Rand can do...who knows how many. A circle could help, but it wouldn't be anything equal to Rand in Stormlight. There'd be breaks, pauses, or simply only a single attack. Still dangerous, but far easier to avoid and counter attack.

[analyticalkeys]

I read this earlier in this thread, but didn't see anyone pick it up, so was curious on it myself.

 

People have speculated that Avi's future visions are of all three guys dead or some combination of them, but what someone wrote earlier made me wonder. Timeline wise, it could almost fit that Avi was having her visions of the future while Mat was in ToG. We know from Moiraine's bond with Lan that being in ToG with the doors gone somehow makes one no longer part of the wheel's pattern. It saw her as dead. And Mat and the others entered through the Tower itself. What if at that moment the pattern saw Mat as dead, as well as the others? Putting aside Moiraine is still needed to help Rand, I happen to believe Mat is key in many things involved the Seanchan. He binds Tuon to Ran, but also can't stand women being mistreated, even Aes Sedai.

 

It may just be that the pillars showed Avi a warning, maybe a possible of what could be, but depending on the exact timeline of when she stepped in and when Mat was in ToG (because we know Perrin arrives before Elayne and she arrives the day before the meeting, so there's still a timeline possibility) it could be a future the pillars saw happening if 1) Mat wasn't around 2) Moiraine was still gone and 3) Avi didn't step up and speak for the Aiel.

 

Also, a quick mention on the circles theory. Certainly I agree circles are powerful, but you're forgetting something special about Rand. Even with all he did, the Asha'man there were in awe not at what he was doing, but at how many weaves he could do at once. That was, and still is Rand's major power umph. Most can barely manage two or three at once, Rand can do...who knows how many. A circle could help, but it wouldn't be anything equal to Rand in Stormlight. There'd be breaks, pauses, or simply only a single attack. Still dangerous, but far easier to avoid and counter attack.

 

I think that's a huge stretch, and most likely has absolutely nothing to do with what Avi saw.

[Sakke]

Also remember that the Seanchan's home base is in utter complete chaos.

 

That's another thing that rings false about this vision. How in the world unless everybody important is DEAD can they allow an empire the size and power of the Seanchan to CONTINUE to have leashed walking cruise missiles?

 

It's really mind-boggling. Common sense would suggest that right after beating the Dark One, the armies of the world would immediately gang up with the White Tower, the Ashaman, and the Aiel to kick Seanchan ass unless serious concessions are made.

 

I'm with Yates on circles. Used competently . . . by say generals like Ituralde, Bryne, Bashere, Agelmar, and the Lord of All Battles, Mat there shouldn't be a contest.

 

And don't forget, Mat's dragons can annihilate damane from a distance and the Seanchan have no idea how to duplicate that technology at this moment in time.

 

The Seanchan only become a threat because they are ALLOWED to continue their way of life which includes leashing damane by the rest of Randland. Why this would be allowed to happen is again baffling.

 

Dennis

 

Well... I suppose "a common sense" would have suggested something alike after the second worldwar ( tarmon gaidon): the Dark One (Hitler) is beaten, but the soviet union (Seanchan) isnt that nice a country either.. so why didnt the allies do as general Patton suggested and attacked instantly to Moscow? (aviendha? Or some other cool character who sees Seanchans as a future threat.. :) btw aviendha doesnt have to work this problem out peacefully! :p )

[deepak_dragonreborn]

Yup these visions will be changed. no point Avi seeing the future and not being able to stop it. Its almost bettter to let the Dark One win ... But that was an amazing chapter. So unexpected... changed the whole perspective abt wht will happen when/if the DO loses. Aiel are my fav... so even if they started the fight i Hope the Seanchan BURN!!!!!

 

 

Maybe the Aiel can get those red shoufa, teeth filed to a point Aielw with them and breed them... Then we'll see who wins.. Flaming Seanchan

[ghoullio]

I had a thought about the remnant of a remnant being saved and how Avhienda could save the Aiel in the future...if the Aiel go to war, the Gaishan will stay behind. I think their 'toh would be served by fighting in the final battle, but that's just me. I think a true Aiel would think it boastful if a Gaishan sat out the last battle. But let's say they do and a majority of the Aiel get killed. This saves the remnant of a remnant, the former Daishan Aiel, as the only survivors of the Aiel as a civilization. This would allow them to take the remainder of their year and possibly become the servants they used to be, back i the AoL. This would stop the Aiel from becoming the culprits of their own demise as was shown to Avhienda in Rhuidean and give em a sense of purpose that would actually heal the world after TG. They would have to find a sense if honor in serving the Dragon or something in a world that has had it's fill of war.

 

I know it's not a rock solid theory, and if true it means the Aiel are going to die by the bucket loads. I still can't decide if a Gaishan should sit out the Last Battle. I'm about 50/50 on it personally. They took an oath to wear the white, yet if they sit out for the survival of mankind, they are kind of aiding the Shadow. This solves Avhiendas very serious dilemma and brings everything back to the way it was.

 

Also, if it was RJ or BS who had the idea for the Aiel's future, i just want to say that little details like that are why I love this series so much. Someone loved these characters so much that they decided to write a chapter about what happens to this group of people in the future. He put a lot of thought into that and I really appreciate the love shown for the Aiel. Just an overall reminder of how badass this saga truly is.

[CoonDawg]

I think the biggest thing about the arc is that I think it confirmed RJ's original intentions of pursuing a sequel.

 

Since back when Min gave the viewing, we knew that Aviendha would have quadruplets, and they'd be special. I had assumed that would happen sometime within the series, and there'd be a time-skip. Well, it doesn't look like Aviendha will have time to give birth, let alone conceive, before Tarmon Gaidon. To top it off, thanks to this arc, we know that they're incredibly powerful. What would be the point of bringing them into the story if we weren't going to see any more of them? There's also the Seanchan, I doubt those will be dealt with in the next book, but that's another story entirely.

 

I don't think Sanderson will pursue any sequel, (doubt he could,) but I firmly believe Jordan was setting himself up to continue the story.

 

Also, anyone else notice that during the one meeting with the queen, it said there was FOUR lines of the Dragon? One for Aviendha, and the other three had died off. Quite possibly a typo, the whole book was littered with them, but that's still pretty interesting. Lanfear, perhaps?

 

One final thing: I find it interesting that it never said whether Rand was still alive during the Quadruplet's time. If you read carefully, you could see Sanderson coming very close to the subject, but leaving it ambiguous. A hint?

[analyticalkeys]

I think the biggest thing about the arc is that I think it confirmed RJ's original intentions of pursuing a sequel.

 

Since back when Min gave the viewing, we knew that Aviendha would have quadruplets, and they'd be special. I had assumed that would happen sometime within the series, and there'd be a time-skip. Well, it doesn't look like Aviendha will have time to give birth, let alone conceive, before Tarmon Gaidon. To top it off, thanks to this arc, we know that they're incredibly powerful. What would be the point of bringing them into the story if we weren't going to see any more of them? There's also the Seanchan, I doubt those will be dealt with in the next book, but that's another story entirely.

 

I don't think Sanderson will pursue any sequel, (doubt he could,) but I firmly believe Jordan was setting himself up to continue the story.

 

Also, anyone else notice that during the one meeting with the queen, it said there was FOUR lines of the Dragon? One for Aviendha, and the other three had died off. Quite possibly a typo, the whole book was littered with them, but that's still pretty interesting. Lanfear, perhaps?

 

One final thing: I find it interesting that it never said whether Rand was still alive during the Quadruplet's time. If you read carefully, you could see Sanderson coming very close to the subject, but leaving it ambiguous. A hint?

 

Um, I don't get why you said the "FOUR lines" is a typo, when you just mentioned several times in your post about the quadruplets which are the four lines..

[imBored]

I had long thought the something strange about her kids would simply be that they would be able to channel, but the always on channeling does seem interesting too. It could be attributed to the Dragon's blood, but I think they're might be something more. Aviendha was able to create that one gateway when running from Rand, and has had trouble making ones as big even while using all of her strength. I think there is something off with Avienda and Rant both that would create this always on channeling. Sorry if this sounds a little disjointed, but I haven't really thought it out much, it just occurred to me. That gateway thing has always struck me as funny. :P

 

Anyways, I also thought it was interesting that one of Rand and Aviendha's kids had black hair, the reason being that he took to his wetlander side. Rand is half Aiel, and his mother had blond hair, and Avi has red hair and is all Aiel. Where is this dark hair gene coming from? Perhaps some support for body swap?

 

All just speculation, but I think there are lots of secrets we could dig out of this viewing. And finally, is Aviendha like 20 days behind everyone else or is it just me? She mentions the clouds breaking over her, which would have occurred when Rand was at Dragonmount since Min and Elayne experience similar things for themselves and Avi is bonded to him too...

[FetFnask]

The Aiel:

The heart of the issue is, what is it to be Aiel? Is it the Three-fold land? The spears? The social structure? The caidin'sor? I believe that it is ji'e'toh. That is the core of the Aiel. Blacksmiths are Aiel, gai'shain are Aiel. Wise Ones are Aiel. The one thing they all have in common is ji'e'toh.

 

When they realise that, they can decide their place in the world. What they should do now.

 

I still believe that the Aiel can never be rid of their toh without throwing down their spears. They will repay their toh towards the Aes Sedai they incurred by abondoning their task by fighting in the Last Battle. But the toh they have towards themselves that they incurred by breaking their oath of non-violence they can only be rid of by doing no violence.

 

It is like an alcoholic who vows to himself to drink no more. He goes for a week, two weeks, without drinking. Finally he succumbs and gets wasted beyond belief. In his drunken stupor he sets fire to a house. He realises that he must repay the owners of the house fully. When he has done so, can he morally motivate a continuation of drinking? The house is repayed and the owners are happe considering the circumstances. I say no. He has broken the vow he made to himself. The only way to make things right is to stop drinking. Same thing with the Aiel.

 

So what should they do instead of fighting just for the sake of fighting?

In my opinion they should rediscover their history. Take up the Way of the Leaf and go out into the world. Find the Ssteddings, talk to the Ogier. They should know a great deal about the old days. Assist the Ogier with rebuilding the cities. Talk to the Tuatha'an, join them in finding the Song of Growing and help heal a world ravaged by war, starvation and dark taint. Learn crafts and professions and help the weak and poor. Learn medicine and cure the sick. Learn about the One Power to strengthen their efforts. Bring life to the Blight.

 

It's a big world out there for a people who has gained alot of ji during the Last Battle. There is much to be explored, discovered and experienced.

 

I think all this will follow when they realise that ji'e'toh is at the heart of what it means to be Aiel.

 

 

The Seanchan:

The might of the Throne is the damane. I think this is quite clear and if I recall correctly this has been said in the books.

 

A consolidated Seanchan backing the beachhead that thay already have in the Westlands will grind down any resistance sooner or later. Sure, the a'dam only works on women now, but that can change. One ould even make the argument that the Ladalin segment shows this.

 

"Those cursed a'dam! Each channeler the Aiel lost to capture was eventually turned against them."

(enphasis mine)

 

The omission of specifying a gender could mean a unisex a'dam (adding an e've?) Aviendha as Oncala reflected that "The Raven Empires techniques and skill with shaping the One Power were growing."

 

The point is that they have an untouched production base in Seanchan. Much like the USA during WW2. Even without Soviet the allies would have ground the Reich down eventually. War is ALL about logistics if both sides are somewhat equal in strength from the getgo.

 

The only way to stop the Seanchan from taking over the world as we see in Aviendhas flashforwards is to destroy the damane. They way to do that has been overtly hinted at several times during the series. Damane are the ones born with the spark. The wilders of Seanchan. Sul'dam are the ones who can learn to wield the One Power (in the Westlands.) However, the Seanchan are not aware of this fact and should it be made known that the sul'dam are actually channelers themselves the powerbese of the Seanchan would be in grave danger. Added to this is that the current Empress (MSLF) Fortuona, is a sul'dam herself and is married to Mat Cauthon, a man who dislikes women being treated the way that the damane are.

 

When the fact that sulädam are cahnnels hit Seanchan, both in the Westlands and in Seanchan Proper civil nrest is sure to follow. Rebellions seem quite commen and it is almost a guarantee that they will blossom during the troubled times that are sure to take place. Rebellion in Seanchan and the weapon that is the damane/sul'dam being confused, frightened and thus less effective bring instability to the empire.

 

Combine all this with the Shadows manipulation of events in Seanchan Proper (a murderer openly ruling Seanchan and so on) and the only logical course of action for Fortuona is to return to the homelands to restore order and reestablish dominance.

 

Fortuona is the key. She has the power to cause all this with some sign language. But she already knows and doen't really care. She choses not to channeö, that is enough. So what means can be used to persuade her? I think there are four key elements:

- The deus ex machine that is the ta'veren powers of Mat, Rand and Perrin.

- Rands sword, Justice. It once belonged to Artur Hawkwing. Bribe? Awe-factor?

- Mat and the Horn of Valere. He blows it and Fortuona can have a chat with Artur himself.

- Fortuonas love for Mat.

 

One, some or all of these things should suffice to blow the lid.

 

Let the sul'dam out of the bag. It will take care of the Seanchan problem.

[metaphor]

Oh, I hated this vision. Not because the Aiel had been broken. That I could acept, even though it's a very harsh punishment for their inability to change.

What grated me was that it was the Seanchan who punished them. The Seanchan, who deserve a much harsher punishment themselves.

Furthermore, in punishing the Aiel, the Seanchan conquered the whole world, destroyed the White Tower and enslaved or killed basically all channelers. All the efforts and strugglefrom Rand, Perrin, Mat, Elayne,Egwene, Moiraine, Dobraine, Nynaeve Siuan, Faile, Shaiel, Morgase, have been in vain. The Seanchan would destroy all they have built in just a couple of generations. The Seanchan would be the ones who have won the war.Rand knelt to their Empress, the keep enslaving women who can channel, and all other nations have to tiptoe their way around them.

That would be a very distasteful ending to the story.

 

Of course, I don't think that was the real future. Just a future in which things go bad. Aviendah would have to work to prevent that.

Considering that Rand kneeling to the Empress is part of prophecies which have been corrupted by Moridin, I would say that it is a future in which the Shadow wins. Not at the end of the 3rd age, but in the next one. The Aiel dead, and the Seanchan enslaving or killing all channelers would make for an easy victory for the Shadow.

Although it's likely that at some point the Aiel have to disappear, and then appear again in another age.

[CoonDawg]

I think the biggest thing about the arc is that I think it confirmed RJ's original intentions of pursuing a sequel.

 

Since back when Min gave the viewing, we knew that Aviendha would have quadruplets, and they'd be special. I had assumed that would happen sometime within the series, and there'd be a time-skip. Well, it doesn't look like Aviendha will have time to give birth, let alone conceive, before Tarmon Gaidon. To top it off, thanks to this arc, we know that they're incredibly powerful. What would be the point of bringing them into the story if we weren't going to see any more of them? There's also the Seanchan, I doubt those will be dealt with in the next book, but that's another story entirely.

 

I don't think Sanderson will pursue any sequel, (doubt he could,) but I firmly believe Jordan was setting himself up to continue the story.

 

Also, anyone else notice that during the one meeting with the queen, it said there was FOUR lines of the Dragon? One for Aviendha, and the other three had died off. Quite possibly a typo, the whole book was littered with them, but that's still pretty interesting. Lanfear, perhaps?

 

One final thing: I find it interesting that it never said whether Rand was still alive during the Quadruplet's time. If you read carefully, you could see Sanderson coming very close to the subject, but leaving it ambiguous. A hint?

 

Um, I don't get why you said the "FOUR lines" is a typo, when you just mentioned several times in your post about the quadruplets which are the four lines..

 

Depends on your perspective of the wording. "Four lines" from Aviendha, or "Four lines" from Rand? There's a big difference. The more I think about it, the more obvious he meant four from Aviendha, but it was poorly worded.

[Caius Callus]

Speculations aside, the "vision-chapter" finally settles the dispute:

Fremen > Aiel

[metaphor]

Fortuona is the key. She has the power to cause all this with some sign language. But she already knows and doen't really care. She choses not to channeö, that is enough. So what means can be used to persuade her? I think there are four key elements:

 

 

- The deus ex machine that is the ta'veren powers of Mat, Rand and Perrin.

- Rands sword, Justice. It once belonged to Artur Hawkwing. Bribe? Awe-factor?

- Mat and the Horn of Valere. He blows it and Fortuona can have a chat with Artur himself.

- Fortuonas love for Mat.

 

 

- Rand binding Tuona to his service would suffice. the bond the Ashaman used on Aes Sedai is perfect for the purpose.