Rand & Egwene (Full Spoilers)

[Jhirrad]

I had to lol at Egwene during this book.

She's given no real thought or research to how the last battle's going to play out, she's been busy obsessing over the WT and being Aes Sedai, then she just instinctively opposes Rand and tries to turn them against Rand, and wants to try to threaten/intimidate him into not breaking the seals. She's such an ignorant, conceited character, I used to be ok with her, but after this book I just hate her.

 

There are several moments reading her POV where I literally thought to myself, "wow, WTF Egwene"

 

The problem with Egwene--as with all Aes Sedai--is that she assumes she knows what she's talking about when she really has absolutely no idea. It doesn't help that the Aes Sedai are all a bunch of morons (save a select few) that are constantly confounded by Egwene's "superior" maneuvering. Really, a girl who spent 16 years on a damn farm is going to outsmart women who have been alive three times as long as her? I can buy that she's more intelligent than some of them individually, but as a whole?

 

But even that doesn't bother me, as pretty much every character in the series always "knows" what they're about. No, the thing that gets me about Egwene is that she is everything she professes to want to rid the Aes Sedai of. She's arrogant to a fault (every time she mentioned how hard life was in the tower I wanted to punch her in the face. Just because YOU had it hard doesn't mean that training in the WT is as hard as the Windfinder/Aiel methods), she's manipulative, she thinks she knows better than everyone and assumes that her logic is the right logic, she's a real jerk and a bully (I dislike Gawyn, but come on), she gets annoyed when people don't agree with her (Nyn and Elayne not taking her side immediately), she thinks the WT is the proper institution for controlling channelers (manipulating the Windfinders/Aiel was a good move for the Amyrlin, but for the girl who trained with them? Pfah), she STILL thinks men can't be trusted, she compares her trials to Rand, etc., etc., etc.

 

She's just... an Aes Sedai. To the bone. She is the epitome of an Aes Sedai. She is the Amyrlin, not Egwene. Perhaps that's what she needs to be for the WT, but it's NOT what she needs to be for the world. She's putting the WT ahead of the world, just like (I think) Nynaeve implies.

 

Yes, there needs to be law and order after the LB, but it'd be helpful if she spared a little while to actually think ABOUT the LB instead of being super-Amyrlin.

 

This makes the entire situation with Rand awkward, because I can see her logic in wanting to resist him, or at least change his mind. I also enjoy that she doesn't see she's being manipulated, but that's beside the point. The PROBLEM with her undermining Rand is that she's doing just that--she's trying to take control. Is Rand necessarily the right leader for the LB? Perhaps not. But he sure as heck knows a lot more than Egwene, and her floundering to stop him is annoying.

 

By all means, try to stop him. But she doesn't have to get all high and mighty with everyone when they see a logic to his actions. She can resist him without being the Fuhrer Amyrlin.

 

Also, she's a moron for thinking Mesaana was the only one who wanted to kill her, especially after a raid on the tower and Gawyn fighting someone who attacked him with a knife.

 

I'm near frothing at the mouth here. I'm tempted to write my own book with a character similar to Egwene, just so i can kill her off and please all the people that hate her. That'll show her...

 

Oh well. I guess that means RJ did a good job with her character, eh?

 

 

 

side note: I wonder what Gawyn will do with those ter'angreal he pocketed... perhaps Tuon will meet the fate she intended for Egwene?

 

Emphasis added

 

I haven't posted much in quite a while here. Wow. Time to come back, especially so close to the end. This seems like the perfect place to start...

 

There are a lot of problems with Egwene in this book and honestly in every book since she was raised as Amyrlin. Maybe it's not her fault, but what you say is clearly the main problem. She is simply Aes Sedai to the core. And yes, I feel like being Aes Sedai is a problem.

 

The Aes Sedai as we know them now have been a force in the world for 3000 years, give or take. They present themselves as the Great Bastion of the Light in all things and for all people. And yet we know (and more importantly THEY know) that they have been corrupted with Black Ajah for most likely the entire existence of their organization. People complain that Rand is/has been stubborn and only willing to do what he wants to do. Even within the context of this encounter between the Dragon Reborn and the Amyrlin Seat it's clear that he is seen in that way. Several here and even in the world of the story think that he should do what Egwene says and she is a natural counterbalance created by the Pattern within the forces of Light. Maybe that's so, I don't know. But I don't believe it to be the case. Throughout the entire series, the thing that has always bothered me the most about the Aes Sedai is the way they believe they can use people. Look back to The Great Hunt where Rand first meets Siuan. He says emphatically that he will not be used, and Siuan says that a tool isn't demeaned by being used for its purpose. This is the general attitude which the White Tower has fostered over the course of 3000 years. They believe that everyone and everything else in the world is a tool for them to use. I find this interesting. Where did they gain this diving mandate? Is it simply based upon the fact that they have access to the magic of the world in the One Power? They placed themselves above all others and their arrogance led them to a place where they start to develop as their own form of evil. It's interesting when Galad really seems to recognize this. He says that while he doesn't believe that Aes Sedai are darkfriends, there is something evil and wrong in them, based simply on the way they have tried to manipulate the entire world for the past 3 millennium. He's really on to something there. Remember the axium of power corrupting and absolute power corrupting absolutely.

 

Throughout the series, we constantly find examples of Aes Sedai deciding that they must 'guide' Rand to Tarmon Gaidon. I'm curious as to how they mean to guide him. From Elaida, I think we all believed it would be lock him up and shield him and hope to get him to SG in time to fight. Egwene at least finally recognizes in ToM that there is a need to allow Rand freedom to fulfill prophecy. But even so she decides that the White Tower should 'guide him'. Let's assume for a second that he needs this level of guidance (which I don't believe). Why are they the ones to give it? We know (and again THEY know) that their entire organization has been infiltrated by the forces of the Dark One. Many of their beliefs, traditions and policies were implemented through their influence. What makes them the right choice for this? Do they legitimately believe that the simple fact that they have access to the One Power gives them this ability and should grant them that authority? What about all the others in the world who can channel? If that is there criteria (and then further delineate things by their own standards that the person strongest in the Power is deferred to) then they should all defer to Rand anyways.

 

*Rant* What makes this point even more frustrating to me is the fact that refuse to acknowledge this. They snap at people or certainly threaten them for mentioning the words Black Ajah, even when they know it exists. They continue to behave as if everything is business as usual when they have exposed a groups existence that they put on blinders to for 3000 years. Idiots. /end Rant.

 

Rand comes to recognize that he isn't simply a weapon pointed at the Dark One to be used. That he can't be that, because if he is then what he leaves will be as bad as if he lost. Yet the Tower still insists on seeing him as a tool, a weapon for them to wield. I think the leadership qualities they have shown (looking at them as a group internally) show us that they are certainly no more qualified than ANYONE else and probably less so than many to guide Rand. I think that ultimately he is shown the path by the Pattern and forced along to what needs to be done.

[Jhirrad]

Individual Aes Sedai succumbing to Verin's Compulsion is not the Amyrlin Seat on behalf of the entire Tower acknowledging The Dragon's supremacy.

 

I'm grateful for the small win the individuals make, but I'm holding out for the BIG win the Amyrlin would make.

 

None of them were under Verin's Compulsion at that point. That came after. Remember that Verin was one of those who bent knee and swore. Verin did what she did while they were set as apprentices to the Wise Ones. It would be nice if the Amyrlin did it, but I don't see it happening.

 

Also, why does Egwene still see such a rigid need for gender division? Regardless of whether she believes the taint has been removed from saidin, she still seems to think that men should AUTOMATICALLY defer to women when it comes to things regarding the Power. That is infuriating to me personally.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Individual Aes Sedai succumbing to Verin's Compulsion is not the Amyrlin Seat on behalf of the entire Tower acknowledging The Dragon's supremacy.

 

I'm grateful for the small win the individuals make, but I'm holding out for the BIG win the Amyrlin would make.

 

None of them were under Verin's Compulsion at that point. That came after. Remember that Verin was one of those who bent knee and swore. Verin did what she did while they were set as apprentices to the Wise Ones. It would be nice if the Amyrlin did it, but I don't see it happening.

 

Also, why does Egwene still see such a rigid need for gender division? Regardless of whether she believes the taint has been removed from saidin, she still seems to think that men should AUTOMATICALLY defer to women when it comes to things regarding the Power. That is infuriating to me personally.

 

You've also got Taim and his, "Kneel or be knelt!" Either way they were coerced.

 

Those who pretended to do it for other reasons only did it to further their own aims.

 

Elza swore so she could make a sacrifice of Rand in the Pit of Doom.

Others swore so they could "handle" Rand for the Tower.

 

Nobody did it because they honestly believed that Rand was the right one to lead.

 

To my mind that is the acknowledgement that needs to be made - an honest belief that Rand is the only one to lead. An honest return to their roots of service to all. And the Amyrlin is the one who needs to make it.

[Tom Sawyer]

 

To my mind that is the acknowledgement that needs to be made - an honest belief that Rand is the only one to lead. An honest return to their roots of service to all. And the Amyrlin is the one who needs to make it.

 

But the unstained tower is no longer broken nor, due to the aftermath of the Seanchan attack, is it particularly unstained anymore. If Egwene were to kneel to him, this section of the prophecy wouldn't reference that.

 

It really does seem that this part of the prophecy was as straightforward as it was written to be.

[Cut Strand]

The scene between Rand and Egwene went pretty much the way I expected.

 

Rand showed up and said his piece. Egwene tried to say her's, but she had no leverage to negotiate with Rand.

 

Assuming the Aes Sedai could hold Rand (which they weren't convinced they could), was Egwene going to try to keep him a prisoner? She said herself that the Dragon had to be free to act in the world.

 

Was Egwene going to try to deny Aes Sedai in the Last Battle? No.

 

The way Aviendha saw the future is almost as bleak as the shadow winning. The people who win after the war practice slavery and have people being chained like animals is that victory? There are a lot of things to be done and rand should trust people to help him, not follow him blindly.

 

Rand has to disclose his plans and explain what he is going to do to people close to him otherwise aviendha's visions in the ter'angreal would be the fate of mankind in the wheel of time world.

 

I was furious at that future, wanting to spit and scream.

 

All the struggles and battles against the Shadow, for the land to turn into something that feels like a post-apocalypiic/Fallout 3 kind of world?

I think that was just the Aiel Waste. In a later (but temporally earlier) vision, the Aiel talk about retreating into the Waste. And the Seanchan are waging a war on them, and since the Seanchan aren't military morons, they know to try to deny the Aiel supplies. So anywhere there is reliable water (by Aiel Waste standards!) they strike. No water -> no crops. No crops -> no livestock. The Seanchan turned the Aiel Waste into a weapon against the Aiel (plus they made a deal with Shara to kill any Aiel that came to them).

 

Perhaps that is exactly what Rand wants. By making Egwene aware of his plan to break the seals, he knows that she will try to oppose him and gather as much nations behind her as she can. Rand knows that things are going to be chaotic after the Last Battle, and he thinks that he will die there. Therefore he needs to find a way to make sure the nations stay together as one instead of splitting up and fighting each other.

 

By making Egwene rally all the nations, the WT will become a beacon for all the nations to follow, before and after the Last Battle.

This is actually something of a brilliant decision. If most of the nations can be rallied behind the White Tower, then that helps keep them set against the Seanchan (since the White Tower's ego will never parlay with the Seanchan).

 

That said, making the White Tower the de facto post-Dragon organizer is counterproductive to winning the Last Battle. Even if Rand were to get everyone behind him, he would undo that influence if he said to Egwene "You are my number two." Because number two's always want to have their input heard.

 

Rand: I want to break the seals

Egwene: Your only the Dragon Reborn, you dont know what your talking about.

Rand: The rubble must be cleared

Egwene: Your plan sucks. I dont have one of my own, but I am sure thats not important.

Rand: Meet me in one month

Egwene: Excellent, I will use that month to attempt to bring rulers to my side and we'll be sure to confront you. Don't know what to do after that, but we'll figure it out.

 

Random Aes Sedai: Borderlands is being swamped by Trollocs

Egwene: Excellent, I will not help in anyway.

 

Gawyn: I chased an intruder around last night and then they tried to stab me.

Egwene: That must be Mesaana.

Gawyn: Why would Mesaana try and stab me?

Egwene: You dont know what your talking about. Go Away

Gawyn: Okay, I am leaving now

Egwene: What are you doing? Don't go away

 

Egwene: Rand has to answer for his Asha`man. They are his responsibility

Nynaeve: By that logic, doesn't that mean that the Aes Sedai who kidnapped Rand are yours?

Egwene: Of course not. You are obviously taking Rands side.

 

Egwene: Rand is planning on breaking the seals. You must help me stop him

Nynaeve: Well err... I trust Rand. He has done pretty good so far

Egwene: No your wrong. Rand is wrong.

Nynaeve: You put forward a convincing argument.

I LOL'ed

 

Also, why does Egwene still see such a rigid need for gender division? Regardless of whether she believes the taint has been removed from saidin, she still seems to think that men should AUTOMATICALLY defer to women when it comes to things regarding the Power. That is infuriating to me personally.

The word is "misandry."

 

1. The hatred or contempt of men and/or boys.

2. The belief that rights (or certain rights) should be denied to men and/or boys.

 

--------

 

I disagree with the analogies of a dam to the Dark One's Prison. Rand himself said that even if the seals were broken, the Dark One wouldn't be instantly free. So it is more like a retaining wall for a cliff side. It slows the erosion, but even if it weren't there it could take years for the cliff to drop.

 

However, I am not certain that Rand will try to re-Seal the Bore. Instead he might (metaphorically) grab the sides of the Bore and pull them together to squeeze it out of the pattern. Like smoothing out clay instead of filling in a hole.

 

But as some have mentioned Fain, it makes me wonder, "Why did Robert Jordan choose this turning of the Wheel instead of the one before or after?" Perhaps the Dark One sort of wins (my opinion of the Dark One's plan is to end the cyclic nature of the universe and make things linear from here on out), but the Dark One is gone from the world, and things never again circle back to again. Then it makes sense that this is the turning chosen because it is the last turning of the Wheel.

 

Will it then becomes the "Ski of Time"?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Does it matter?

 

If Aviendha's visions are accurate, everything and everyone falls to the Borg. "RESISTANCE IS FUTILE! YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED!"

[TreeJoe]

Rand definitely knows that belief is important to winning - the reason he exhausts himself at maradon is to prevent the Shadow from winning there, for the sake of showing the forces of the Light that their fight means something. That their sacrifice was worth it. To prevent the Shadow from gaining a major win in the propaganda wars.

 

Egwene is a brilliant character whose development has come along nicely. But, though I despise the way she was written her in regards to Rand, it IS in line with her thinking of him throughout the book. And of those who she surrounds herself with (Siuan's comment on maybe he came to surrender to their guidance).

 

Her reflexive disagreement with his chosen courses, his way of thinking, and his leadership style is textbook Egwene. It took Nynaeve AGES to relax, somewhat, to Rand....and that was with her spending alot more time genuinely with him as a leader. Egwene has not spent that time.

 

I think it's important to note that she recognizes his power: The Hall of the Tower was frozen stiff, she thinks he could break a double-circle shield....

[capuga]

Rand: I want to break the seals

Egwene: Your only the Dragon Reborn, you dont know what your talking about.

Rand: The rubble must be cleared

Egwene: Your plan sucks. I dont have one of my own, but I am sure thats not important.

Rand: Meet me in one month

Egwene: Excellent, I will use that month to attempt to bring rulers to my side and we'll be sure to confront you. Don't know what to do after that, but we'll figure it out.

 

Random Aes Sedai: Borderlands is being swamped by Trollocs

Egwene: Excellent, I will not help in anyway.

 

Gawyn: I chased an intruder around last night and then they tried to stab me.

Egwene: That must be Mesaana.

Gawyn: Why would Mesaana try and stab me?

Egwene: You dont know what your talking about. Go Away

Gawyn: Okay, I am leaving now

Egwene: What are you doing? Don't go away

 

Egwene: Rand has to answer for his Asha`man. They are his responsibility

Nynaeve: By that logic, doesn't that mean that the Aes Sedai who kidnapped Rand are yours?

Egwene: Of course not. You are obviously taking Rands side.

 

Egwene: Rand is planning on breaking the seals. You must help me stop him

Nynaeve: Well err... I trust Rand. He has done pretty good so far

Egwene: No your wrong. Rand is wrong.

Nynaeve: You put forward a convincing argument.

 

Maybe the most awesome post I have ever seen on these boards.

 

I'm trying to figure out why Egwene thinks the best way to oppose Rand's plan is to gather a bunch of armies together and undermine Rand's authority, possibly weakening the ties that have begun to tie many of the lands together. Does she think that risking a huge battle between the forces of the Light just before the start of the Last Battle is a good idea? Does she really think a show of force will stop Rand from doing what he wants or would even be capable of it? If she thinks that Rand's plan is crazy (which I don't have a problem with), the correct response should have been to use the resources of the White Tower to come up with a viable alternative (and why hasn't some kind of plan been studied upon prior to this in the last 3000 years?) and present that to Rand with the world's influencial leaders and people he trusts. Her response is moronic (even though Rand expected it and played Egwene perfectly for his plans).

[dwn]

I'm trying to figure out why Egwene thinks the best way to oppose Rand's plan is to gather a bunch of armies together and undermine Rand's authority, possibly weakening the ties that have begun to tie many of the lands together. Does she think that risking a huge battle between the forces of the Light just before the start of the Last Battle is a good idea? Does she really think a show of force will stop Rand from doing what he wants or would even be capable of it? If she thinks that Rand's plan is crazy (which I don't have a problem with), the correct response should have been to use the resources of the White Tower to come up with a viable alternative (and why hasn't some kind of plan been studied upon prior to this in the last 3000 years?) and present that to Rand with the world's influencial leaders and people he trusts. Her response is moronic (even though Rand expected it and played Egwene perfectly for his plans).

 

Egwene isn't gathering armies to oppose Rand, precisely. She intends to show him a world unified against his (in her mind) insane course of action. I'm not sure she'll succeed, though. Every response we've seen is along the lines of: "okay, that does seem a bit crazy so lets talk about it."

 

I agree that Rand intended to use her to unite and gather forces while he was otherwise occupied, but I also think that he wanted to bring the division between men and women out into the open so that it could be healed.

 

-- dwn

[capuga]

I'm trying to figure out why Egwene thinks the best way to oppose Rand's plan is to gather a bunch of armies together and undermine Rand's authority, possibly weakening the ties that have begun to tie many of the lands together. Does she think that risking a huge battle between the forces of the Light just before the start of the Last Battle is a good idea? Does she really think a show of force will stop Rand from doing what he wants or would even be capable of it? If she thinks that Rand's plan is crazy (which I don't have a problem with), the correct response should have been to use the resources of the White Tower to come up with a viable alternative (and why hasn't some kind of plan been studied upon prior to this in the last 3000 years?) and present that to Rand with the world's influencial leaders and people he trusts. Her response is moronic (even though Rand expected it and played Egwene perfectly for his plans).

 

Egwene isn't gathering armies to oppose Rand, precisely. She intends to show him a world unified against his (in her mind) insane course of action. I'm not sure she'll succeed, though. Every response we've seen is along the lines of: "okay, that does seem a bit crazy so lets talk about it."

 

I agree that Rand intended to use her to unite and gather forces while he was otherwise occupied, but I also think that he wanted to bring the division between men and women out into the open so that it could be healed.

 

-- dwn

 

I still think bringing the armies along just raises the very real possibility of a battle with those that side with Rand. I think a summit with just the leaders united against him would have served the same purpose without the risk of battle.

[JohnnyBeGood]

The Aes Sedai as we know them now have been a force in the world for 3000 years, give or take. They present themselves as the Great Bastion of the Light in all things and for all people. And yet we know (and more importantly THEY know) that they have been corrupted with Black Ajah for most likely the entire existence of their organization. People complain that Rand is/has been stubborn and only willing to do what he wants to do. Even within the context of this encounter between the Dragon Reborn and the Amyrlin Seat it's clear that he is seen in that way. Several here and even in the world of the story think that he should do what Egwene says and she is a natural counterbalance created by the Pattern within the forces of Light. Maybe that's so, I don't know. But I don't believe it to be the case. Throughout the entire series, the thing that has always bothered me the most about the Aes Sedai is the way they believe they can use people. Look back to The Great Hunt where Rand first meets Siuan. He says emphatically that he will not be used, and Siuan says that a tool isn't demeaned by being used for its purpose. This is the general attitude which the White Tower has fostered over the course of 3000 years. They believe that everyone and everything else in the world is a tool for them to use. I find this interesting. Where did they gain this diving mandate? Is it simply based upon the fact that they have access to the magic of the world in the One Power? They placed themselves above all others and their arrogance led them to a place where they start to develop as their own form of evil. It's interesting when Galad really seems to recognize this. He says that while he doesn't believe that Aes Sedai are darkfriends, there is something evil and wrong in them, based simply on the way they have tried to manipulate the entire world for the past 3 millennium. He's really on to something there. Remember the axium of power corrupting and absolute power corrupting absolutely.

 

I think the Black Ajah and Morridin are more the cause for the bad mindset of the Aes Sedai and the World in general. Doing Darkone Propaganda and spreading Lies, twisting the knowledge of history, to make sure that the Dragon Reborn and others on the side of the Light have it as hard as possible. The Legends that influence the mindset of the People in Randland, have made it really hard. For example the Kinslayer part of the Legend of Lewis Therin only Morridin could have spread that tale and it made it really hard for Rand to accept being the Dragon Reborn and the reincarnation of Lewis Therin.

I think the Dark Ajah have been working since there start to influence the White Tower and set up Traditions that favor them. For example the Tradition that speaking and thinking about a possible Black Ajah is a total anathema under Aes Sedai. I also see the Tests for raising in the Tower favoring them greatly, because of their driving Emotion being a Lust for Power. Candidates for the Black Ajah are certain to succeed. Actually anyone who fails those Tests would automatically be unsuited for the Black Ajah, i suspect this is one of the reasons that we have not seen any Black Kinswomen. The Black Ahja can also use those Tests to get rid of unwanted Candidates. Novices and Accepted who are bothering or a threat, can be removed if the overseers of the Test are from the Dark Ajah. Either by tweaking the TA or just by killing them right there and then, removing the body and saying that they did not come out.

If one sees how hard it was for Rand to come clear on himself being the Dragon Reborn and even more the Reincarnation of Lewis Therin, then one can understand why it will take the Tower some time.

Thats why i am glad Nynaeve dared to defy the Test. She made Egwene and i think some of the testers who voted for her Think. Egewene did not like what she heard, but i think she was troubled about it, because she new Nynaeve was right.

 

Throughout the series, we constantly find examples of Aes Sedai deciding that they must 'guide' Rand to Tarmon Gaidon. I'm curious as to how they mean to guide him. From Elaida, I think we all believed it would be lock him up and shield him and hope to get him to SG in time to fight. Egwene at least finally recognizes in ToM that there is a need to allow Rand freedom to fulfill prophecy. But even so she decides that the White Tower should 'guide him'. Let's assume for a second that he needs this level of guidance (which I don't believe). Why are they the ones to give it? We know (and again THEY know) that their entire organization has been infiltrated by the forces of the Dark One. Many of their beliefs, traditions and policies were implemented through their influence. What makes them the right choice for this? Do they legitimately believe that the simple fact that they have access to the One Power gives them this ability and should grant them that authority? What about all the others in the world who can channel? If that is there criteria (and then further delineate things by their own standards that the person strongest in the Power is deferred to) then they should all defer to Rand anyways.

 

I disagree. While much of their beliefs, traditions and knowledge is corrupted. They are still suited to give advice, and that is the Guidance i think Egwene means to give. They are suited for that Role because they have knowledgeable, intelligent and wise(at least to some extent) women amongst them. They are also "servants of all"(well sadly not all of them are thus suited but some are, Moraine, Cadsuane, Verin, Nynaeve, Siuan and Egwene). Not bond to a nation or ethnic group like the Wiseones or Windfinders. Interestingly many WoT fans like to think of some(well actually most or even all) of the mentioned Ase Sedai who have shown the needed Qualities and who have already given very needed Guidance to Rand as totally separate of the rest of the Aes Sedai that are stumbling about.

Rand has also been somewhat of an Enigma to many of the Aes Sedai who dealt with Rand and as mat would phrase it a Royal Pain in the Ass. He is more knowledgeable, intelligent and politically deft than they would await from his upbringing. Sadly while they coul adjust to that he has also been unable to take advise from almost anyone and know he feels that he does not even have the time to do so. It would not have hurt him if he would have arranged a private meeting with Egwene to talk some things over properly, sooner than a Months time away.

[metaphor]

"Rand you can't break the seals.We can't let you do it"

"Do it?" Egwene, I'm not a gleeman's tale protagonist. Do you seriously think I'd discuss my plan with you if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it thirty-five minutes ago. "

[bubbers]

I really hate about 1/2 of the women in this book, egwene being at the top of the list, but heres another good shot at egwene.

 

Egwene thinks of herself as being so awesome for being able to embrace pain and thus ascending the to the amyrlin seat through sheer will power. Well mat, calmly, let some fox thing claw his eye out and laughed about it later when he thought about how it won't really change his skill much. And he didn't have the intent to try to laugh it off or "embrace" it, he just laughed without trying, truly having a good time. Considering how all the two rivers folks thinks he's a whiner, a bit selfish, and does anything to avoid certain things, thats pretty freakin amazing. whereas, she didn't put up with anymore than any collage, umm, rushee?, puts up with.

[decrepid dragon]

I really hate about 1/2 of the women in this book, egwene being at the top of the list, but heres another good shot at egwene.

 

Egwene thinks of herself as being so awesome for being able to embrace pain and thus ascending the to the amyrlin seat through sheer will power. Well mat, calmly, let some fox thing claw his eye out and laughed about it later when he thought about how it won't really change his skill much. And he didn't have the intent to try to laugh it off or "embrace" it, he just laughed without trying, truly having a good time. Considering how all the two rivers folks thinks he's a whiner, a bit selfish, and does anything to avoid certain things, thats pretty freakin amazing. whereas, she didn't put up with anymore than any collage, umm, rushee?, puts up with.

Mat FTW, book 4 or 5 in ruihden (can't spell it) where he is walking out with Rand and Rand notices he is not complaining (After being partly hanged and cut by dust ghost things) so he must be in a lot of pain. Mat is this series biggest badass. Tuon and her analogy of a lion in a horse stall and out on the plains :)

[bubbers]

Theres another good comparison. Tuon and Mat have a situation going on. But instead of one of the other demanding obediance for intimacy, as someone a page or so back points out egwene demands of gawyn, they just say "well you aren't my enemy but..." and both kinda just figure they'll be intimate when they have the chance.

[Fel]

Rand: I want to break the seals

Egwene: Your only the Dragon Reborn, you dont know what your talking about.

Rand: The rubble must be cleared

Egwene: Your plan sucks. I dont have one of my own, but I am sure thats not important.

Rand: Meet me in one month

Egwene: Excellent, I will use that month to attempt to bring rulers to my side and we'll be sure to confront you. Don't know what to do after that, but we'll figure it out.

 

Random Aes Sedai: Borderlands is being swamped by Trollocs

Egwene: Excellent, I will not help in anyway.

 

Gawyn: I chased an intruder around last night and then they tried to stab me.

Egwene: That must be Mesaana.

Gawyn: Why would Mesaana try and stab me?

Egwene: You dont know what your talking about. Go Away

Gawyn: Okay, I am leaving now

Egwene: What are you doing? Don't go away

 

Egwene: Rand has to answer for his Asha`man. They are his responsibility

Nynaeve: By that logic, doesn't that mean that the Aes Sedai who kidnapped Rand are yours?

Egwene: Of course not. You are obviously taking Rands side.

 

Egwene: Rand is planning on breaking the seals. You must help me stop him

Nynaeve: Well err... I trust Rand. He has done pretty good so far

Egwene: No your wrong. Rand is wrong.

Nynaeve: You put forward a convincing argument.

 

This was the best synopsis of Egwene's thread I have seen. I had such high hopes for her after TGS...what happened?

[decrepid dragon]

Rand: I want to break the seals

Egwene: Your only the Dragon Reborn, you dont know what your talking about.

Rand: The rubble must be cleared

Egwene: Your plan sucks. I dont have one of my own, but I am sure thats not important.

Rand: Meet me in one month

Egwene: Excellent, I will use that month to attempt to bring rulers to my side and we'll be sure to confront you. Don't know what to do after that, but we'll figure it out.

 

Random Aes Sedai: Borderlands is being swamped by Trollocs

Egwene: Excellent, I will not help in anyway.

 

Gawyn: I chased an intruder around last night and then they tried to stab me.

Egwene: That must be Mesaana.

Gawyn: Why would Mesaana try and stab me?

Egwene: You dont know what your talking about. Go Away

Gawyn: Okay, I am leaving now

Egwene: What are you doing? Don't go away

 

Egwene: Rand has to answer for his Asha`man. They are his responsibility

Nynaeve: By that logic, doesn't that mean that the Aes Sedai who kidnapped Rand are yours?

Egwene: Of course not. You are obviously taking Rands side.

 

Egwene: Rand is planning on breaking the seals. You must help me stop him

Nynaeve: Well err... I trust Rand. He has done pretty good so far

Egwene: No your wrong. Rand is wrong.

Nynaeve: You put forward a convincing argument.

 

This was the best synopsis of Egwene's thread I have seen. I had such high hopes for her after TGS...what happened?

I think the most amazing thing is that I didn't really notice anything different, she is acting exactly the same in TGS but it is working against the light this time around. Although there is convincing arguments that Rand is playing her and she is helping the Light, its unintentional.

 

EDIT: But then I hated Cadsuane up until this book too, so I guess anyone not working with Mat, Perrin or Rand gets on my characters-I-would-like-to-see-die list.

[Mr. Micawber]

If you see Cadsuane as Judi Dench - particularly a combination of M and Lady Bracknell - as I do, it's hard to actually hate her. Get frustrated with her, yes. But the woman's central goal was not to lead him to the Last Battle or to guide him the way that Siuan and (initially) Moiraine and (now) Egwene want to, but rather to restore his humanity.

 

To the extent that Cadsuane is now *proud* of Rand, and as importantly, *supports* his plan to break the seals.

 

Which is demonstrative of not only a deep and careful reading of the prophecies, but a true faith in Rand, because she doesn't have the personal connection that Nynaeve has to him, but she's willing to defy her entire order - the order to which she dedicated herself centuries ago and to which she is a demigod - to help Rand.

[decrepid dragon]

well yes, frustrated was probably a better description, but that would be a great role for her to have.

[Kaznen]

Something I'm expecting:

 

Rand: "I'm doing it Egwene."

Egwene: "No, I won't let you."

Rand: "You and what army?"

Egwene: "Andor's!"

Mat runs up: "Just got here from Caemlyn and Trollocs burned the city to the ground."

Elyane: "I gotta go."

Egwene: "The Aiel"

Rhurac: "We follow the Car'a'Carn"

Egwene gets a similar response from Tear, Illian, Mayene, Gheledan, Borderlanders, and Whitecloaks.

Egwene: "Well, I still have the Tower Guard, General Bryne!"

Bryne: "Uno! Get ready to attack!"

Uno: "No bloody can do. I'm Dragonsworn, the other Sheirans with me are Dragonsworn, and every flaming soldier we trained (all of them) are Dragonsworn also."

Bryne: "What about the deserters from the Band of the Red Hand?"

Uno: "You really think I would let a bloody deserter of the Lord Dragon live? Talmanes and I worked this out."

Bryne: "Sorry, Mother."

Egwene: "How dare you get loyal followers!"

Seanchan show up.

Fortuona: "We don't think he should break the Seals also."

Egwene: "How dare you say that!?"

[AutomatedTeller]

Working AGAINST the light?

 

That's kind of harsh. I mean, the Borderlanders ABANDONED THEIR lands (which are being overrun by trollocs) because they thought they might have to kill Rand. All Egwene is doing is trying to drum up support to stop him from doing something that she believes is INSANE.

 

Me, I think she deserves an awful lot of credit. At 19, I was flunking out of college. At 19, she's reunited the single most powerful force for the light in Randland, purged it of the Black ajah and bagged a forsaken on the way. Her mistakes pale in comparison to the ones that Rand has made.

 

I think she deserve the benefit of the doubt... at least until she actually does something that hurts Rand.

[Hopefire]

From the very start, all the way back to the beginning of the Eye of the World, if Rand said something was black then Egwene would say it's white. I've been rereading the series from the start since I finished ToM, and I can't help but be struck by how the characters have remained true to themselves over the long term. Nynaeve has retained her passion and desire to protect those she cares about, Mat is still the goof who would let a badger out on the village green, Perrin is still slow to make a decision and determined to do the right thing. From the very first, Rand sees further and deeper into things than his friends do, and is both angrier than anyone and also cares more deeply than anyone.

 

Egwene starts the Eye of the World determined to leave the Two Rivers, to see more, to become something more than she is. There is nothing wrong with those sentiments. They form the basis of most heroic fantasy coming of age stories, where a soon-to-be heroic young man or woman leaves his or her village and becomes a person of import in the larger world. Egwene's goals in EotW are initially to become something more than Innkeepers Daughter, and then to become Aes Sedai. Those ambitions are admirable. It's the other half of her personality that comes across from the first that leads to trouble, her automatic instinct to trust authority. There's some light comedy early on, where she ties her hair back with a ribbon because she can't decide whether to braid it to please Nynaeve or leave it free to try to please Moiraine. Even this character trait wouldn't necessarily be so bad, except for two things: she comes to see the AS as being the primary authority in the world, and she becomes the AS.

 

Which means she sees herself as the primary authority on what the right, correct thing to do might be. Rand developed a similar problem, believing that as the Dragon he had to lead everyone whether they wanted to be led or not. It's a dangerous trap, one that blinded Rand for a while. In the climax for TGS and aftermath, Rand recognizes his own potential to be wrong – he demonstrates it throughout ToM, for example where he explains his own arrogance and how he should have been grateful to the White Tower for providing a convenient set of backs to carry the weight of his crimes, how he second guesses his defence of Maradon, how he recognizes that he's made mistakes regarding conduct of the war, the Black Tower, his own behaviour, etc. Rand isn't bearing false humility in ToM – he knows his task, to find a way to defeat the Dark One – but he also recognizes his own fallibility. Egwene hasn't had a moment like that.

 

 

What I expect to happen is that Egwene will expect that the assembled kings and queens, lords and ladies and clan chiefs, Aes Sedai and Wise Ones and generals, will hear what she has to say and agree.

 

But the kings and queens of the Borderlands have seen the restraint that Rand has shown, and they will follow Rand. The Aiel are sworn to Rand, and they won't stand against him now; they will follow Rand. Tear, Arad Doman, Illian, they are the ones that Egwene is most likely to sway, but all things considered they seem more likely to stand with Rand than with Egwene, especially given that Tear fears Aes Sedai, and Illian and Arad Doman both had their monarches kingnapped by Aes Sedai. Perrin, with all of his followers, will stand with Rand (can you imagine the Whitecloaks siding with Aes Sedai? Not likely...). Egwene will expect Elayne to side with her, but I can't see Elayne siding against Rand, feeling what she feels through the bond. Nynaeve, the uncrowned queen, will side with Rand. It will be Egwene and the Hall against Rand, and the Hall has the authority to decide the conduct of the war. The Hall itself with side with Rand over Egwene, leaving her standing alone in opposition.

 

What happens next is her decision.

[apaeter]

[...]and the Hall has the authority to decide the conduct of the war. The Hall itself with side with Rand over Egwene[...]

 

That would be a pretty cool resolution. I like that idea.

 

I can't even imagine what her arguments would be in the first place, though. Did she give or imply any rationale beyond "it's insane"? I've got the last two books as audiobooks (don't judge me) where it's rather inconvenient to look up specific passages*. I think that's the biggest problem I have with the whole thing. She doesn't seem to have even an ill-conceived argument as to what makes this a bad plan, let alone a strategy for what comes after her intervention. (I imagine something like the one in Arrested Development, which did later turn into a party, as I recall...) I'd have thought that she'd at least have some rationalization of her course of action. The word "unconstructive" comes to mind...

 

 

 

*(Wait, did I just stumble upon a huge gap in the audiobook format market? Dibs! :) )

[Nimic]

Something I'm expecting:

 

Rand: "I'm doing it Egwene."

Egwene: "No, I won't let you."

Rand: "You and what army?"

Egwene: "Andor's!"

Mat runs up: "Just got here from Caemlyn and Trollocs burned the city to the ground."

Elyane: "I gotta go."

Egwene: "The Aiel"

Rhurac: "We follow the Car'a'Carn"

Egwene gets a similar response from Tear, Illian, Mayene, Gheledan, Borderlanders, and Whitecloaks.

Egwene: "Well, I still have the Tower Guard, General Bryne!"

Bryne: "Uno! Get ready to attack!"

Uno: "No bloody can do. I'm Dragonsworn, the other Sheirans with me are Dragonsworn, and every flaming soldier we trained (all of them) are Dragonsworn also."

Bryne: "What about the deserters from the Band of the Red Hand?"

Uno: "You really think I would let a bloody deserter of the Lord Dragon live? Talmanes and I worked this out."

Bryne: "Sorry, Mother."

Egwene: "How dare you get loyal followers!"

Seanchan show up.

Fortuona: "We don't think he should break the Seals also."

Egwene: "How dare you say that!?"

 

This is funny, but the worst part of it is that I can almost see it going down that way. Egwene is just so.. dense.

 

As for her "grand coalition" to sway Rand.. I just can't see her having much support at the end of it. I feel like the Aiel, though they aren't following any wetlander king, will eventually trust Rand anyway. I'm not entirely sure about Andor, but let's not forget that when Elayne first heard about the idea, she didn't seem so against it. I'm fairly sure Rand will be able to sway her, and I don't think she'd oppose him just because Egwene and the rest of the Aes Sedai did. I can't see the Borderlanders oppose him either, no matter his scheme; not after that meeting. They are now 100% convinced that he's the Dragon Reborn, and not the emo version either. Perrin will obviously support Rand. Him, Mat and Rand have a bit of a special connection going on, and I can't see them actively working against each other at any point.

 

It gets a bit more fuzzy when you think about the other nations of the world. At the end of the day, I think Darlin will support Rand. Let's not forget that he was a full out rebel for a while, and now follows Rand because he "believes" in him. Oh look, here's an Aes Sedai telling you that the guy you've been following is completely wrong, even though her argument pretty much consists of "well, he's obviously completely wrong! (PS: I'm the Amyrlin, alright?)".

 

In short: Egwene was duped. Rand is awesome. Can't wait.

[Mazerom]

Does anyone have any opinions about Rand's cloak? Throughout the book, it's specifically described and he is constantly seen wearing it. An early poster mentioned that it could be a TA, which, while interesting, doesn't seem plausible. It seems to be a symbol for the transformation that can be found in Rand and his connection to the world. Could there be more to it?

 

Also, what about the recently found power-wrought sword that was dug up while staying at the manner in tGS? Rand mentions in ToM that is reminds him of the past, but there seemed to be something very specific about the weapon that he recalled and decidedly did not mention. Could it originally have been LTT's sword?