Rand & Egwene (Full Spoilers)

[Hadilmir]

Confirmed by RJ. The Randlanders don't usually appear to see it that way but they should. The seals were clearly not completely or permanently effective.

Except that's not the point I'm arguing...

 

Fine, here's a completely different analogy that may get through.

 

Your umbrella(Seals) has a huge hole in it that's gradually getting bigger (Seals weakening), and 100 feet ahead is an umbrella bin (Plan for TG) with an umbrella in it. You're 200 feet through pouring rain from home (Tarmon Gai'don). You don't know if the umbrella in the bin (A plan for TG) is better or worse than your umbrella, so here are your options-

1. Keep going towards home with your rapidly deteriorating umbrella without stopping at the bin (Hold onto the Seals until TG and then wing it)

2. Throw away your umbrella because it's broken and walk to the umbrella bin with no protection whatsoever (Destroy the Seals and then make a plan to use during TG)

3. Throw away your umbrella because it's broken and walk home without stopping at the bin (Destroy the Seals and then wing it for TG)

4. Use your broken umbrella for the little protection it gives until you get to the umbrella bin and find out if it is better or worse than the current umbrella (Keep the Seals until a good plan has been made for TG or atleast having the Seals still handy if a better plan can't be made)

 

From what Rand said, Egwene thinks he's trying #2 or #3 (Breaking the Seals then making a plan or just winging it), where the logical option is #4 (Keeping the Seals until a plan is made)

 

He even said he didn't have the answers yet, to make things worse throw in the fact that Egwene just got a message that apparently warns against letting Rand break the Seals. She'd be an idiot to trust Rand going from what she knows.

[1eejit]

Confirmed by RJ. The Randlanders don't usually appear to see it that way but they should. The seals were clearly not completely or permanently effective.

Except that's not the point I'm arguing...

 

Fine, here's a completely different analogy that may get through.

 

Your umbrella(Seals) has a huge hole in it that's gradually getting bigger (Seals weakening), and 100 feet ahead is an umbrella bin (Plan for TG) with an umbrella in it. You're 200 feet through pouring rain from home (Tarmon Gai'don). You don't know if the umbrella in the bin (A plan for TG) is better or worse than your umbrella, so here are your options-

1. Keep going towards home with your rapidly deteriorating umbrella without stopping at the bin (Hold onto the Seals until TG and then wing it)

2. Throw away your umbrella because it's broken and walk to the umbrella bin with no protection whatsoever (Destroy the Seals and then make a plan to use during TG)

3. Throw away your umbrella because it's broken and walk home without stopping at the bin (Destroy the Seals and then wing it for TG)

4. Use your broken umbrella for the little protection it gives until you get to the umbrella bin and find out if it is better or worse than the current umbrella (Keep the Seals until a good plan has been made for TG or atleast having the Seals still handy if a better plan can't be made)

 

From what Rand said, Egwene thinks he's trying #2 or #3 (Breaking the Seals then making a plan or just winging it), where the logical option is #4 (Keeping the Seals until a plan is made)

 

 

I don't see why you would think he was planning anything other than option #4 from that analogy. He didn't say the seals had to be broken immediately, just that they had to be broken. He hasn't figured out the step to take after that yet, but hopes to before the time comes to break them.

That's how it read to me anyway.

[Hadilmir]

I don't see why you would think he was planning anything other than option #4 from that analogy. He didn't say the seals had to be broken immediately, just that they had to be broken. He hasn't figured out the step to take after that yet, but hopes to before the time comes to break them.

That's how it read to me anyway.

 

"I don't have the answers yet."

...

"In one months time, I'm going to travel to Shayol Ghul and break the last remaining seals on the Dark One's prison."

...

"I want you to meet with me the day before I go to Shayol Ghul. And then... well, then we will discuss my terms."

 

There's just no possible way a 'good course of action' could be determined in one day, so it's more like #2 than #4.

[1eejit]

I don't see why you would think he was planning anything other than option #4 from that analogy. He didn't say the seals had to be broken immediately, just that they had to be broken. He hasn't figured out the step to take after that yet, but hopes to before the time comes to break them.

That's how it read to me anyway.

 

"I don't have the answers yet."

...

"In one months time, I'm going to travel to Shayol Ghul and break the last remaining seals on the Dark One's prison."

...

"I want you to meet with me the day before I go to Shayol Ghul. And then... well, then we will discuss my terms."

 

There's just no possible way a 'good course of action' could be determined in one day, so it's more like #2 than #4.

 

Ehm, he has a month and a day to figure it out. He didn't say he would form a plan while meeting with Eggy...

[Bob T Dwarf]

He even said he didn't have the answers yet, to make things worse throw in the fact that Egwene just got a message that apparently warns against letting Rand break the Seals. She'd be an idiot to trust Rand going from what she knows.

 

Except that Egwene has a great many opinions and very little real knowledge. She may know what she thinks, but her thinking is based on nothing but her fears.

 

It isn't what she knows that's the problem, it's how she thinks that's the problem.

 

She could magically get every relevant fact about the situation and it wouldn't matter until and unless she changed how she thought about the problem.

 

It's realistic for her to be scared. That's only rational. Since this is a fantasy novel where all of existence is on the line and she's one of the major good characters it's her job to get on top of that fear. To make the leap of faith.

 

Things are not getting better for the light. The longer they wait the worse things will get, the more reality will erode. The Borderlands are lost. Caemlyn is under attack. There have been skirmishes near Ebou Dar. If you want to eat, you need to snuggle up close to Rand, Mat, or Perrin. Reality is even breaking down around Stedding.

 

While it'd be nice, there aint time now for Coombaya. It's time to put their game faces on and begin to kick ass and take names.

 

And, yes, that means some china is gonna get broke.

[lhsmommy]

I actually have been thinking that Rand's whole scheme right now was to get Eggy to get EVERYONE in the same place at the same time. (and I an pretty sure Mat et al... Will be there too when Grady opens the gateway for them. If I recall he went with Perrin.) In this case he will be able to either take them all to bring the Seanchan to heel or go whoop the BT (or split nd do both with Logain in charge of BT.) After all that he will have a bigger and better army and a plan for TG.

 

Just seems that with everyone so worked up about breaking the seals now, if he were to go 'Just kidding for now, really need you to do

[lhsmommy]

I actually have been thinking that Rand's whole scheme right now was to get Eggy to get EVERYONE in the same place at the same time. (and I an pretty sure Mat et al... Will be there too when Grady opens the gateway for them. If I recall he went with Perrin.) In this case he will be able to either take them all to bring the Seanchan to heel or go whoop the BT (or split nd do both with Logain in charge of BT.) After all that he will have a bigger and better army and a plan for TG.

 

Just seems that with everyone so worked up about breaking the seals now, if he were to go 'Just kidding for now, really need you to do this.' Seems like they would JUMP at that alternative to said seal breaking.

 

Jen-

[Danvighar]

Something I'm fairly sure he intended for her to pick up on and run with - but, from what we see on-screen, she missed, or misinterpreted - was that "I don't have the answers yet" was a clue, intended to have the Whites and Browns and such start looking for answers along with rallying the nations to... argue with him.

[AutomatedTeller]

My first post :)

 

I thought it was a great meeting. I thought Rand was outstanding - to the point, polite, wise, lucid enough to make people doubt his insanity but making it clear that he's not just Rand...

 

And I thought Egwene's reaction to the "breaking of the seals" plan to be exactly what I think anyone would do. I mean, we've been hearing about it for books now and Rand himself has just figured out that it's what he has to do.

 

I think it's very interesting that Egwene seems to be immune from the ta'veren effects, though. What's that about? She's the first one who seems unaffected by it at all - Tuon shook it off, but clearly felt them.

[dfchang]

Perhaps because the Pattern wants her to do exactly what she is planning? Gather the rulers and armies of the world where Rand needs them? As this is in line with what Rand wants, his ta'veren nature wouldn't effect her all that much.

 

Dennis

[dfchang]

I think it would be hilarious if Rand showed up at the Field of Merrilor, looked around at Egwene, Elayne, Perrin, the Borderland rulers, all those kings and queens and scream:

 

"LET'S GET THIS PARTY STARTED!"

 

Then smash the Seals on the ground in front of all of them. :biggrin:

 

Reaction would be priceless.

 

Dennis

[Nimic]

I had to lol at Egwene during this book.

She's given no real thought or research to how the last battle's going to play out, she's been busy obsessing over the WT and being Aes Sedai, then she just instinctively opposes Rand and tries to turn them against Rand, and wants to try to threaten/intimidate him into not breaking the seals. She's such an ignorant, conceited character, I used to be ok with her, but after this book I just hate her.

 

There are several moments reading her POV where I literally thought to myself, "wow, WTF Egwene"

 

The problem with Egwene--as with all Aes Sedai--is that she assumes she knows what she's talking about when she really has absolutely no idea. It doesn't help that the Aes Sedai are all a bunch of morons (save a select few) that are constantly confounded by Egwene's "superior" maneuvering. Really, a girl who spent 16 years on a damn farm is going to outsmart women who have been alive three times as long as her? I can buy that she's more intelligent than some of them individually, but as a whole?

 

But even that doesn't bother me, as pretty much every character in the series always "knows" what they're about. No, the thing that gets me about Egwene is that she is everything she professes to want to rid the Aes Sedai of. She's arrogant to a fault (every time she mentioned how hard life was in the tower I wanted to punch her in the face. Just because YOU had it hard doesn't mean that training in the WT is as hard as the Windfinder/Aiel methods), she's manipulative, she thinks she knows better than everyone and assumes that her logic is the right logic, she's a real jerk and a bully (I dislike Gawyn, but come on), she gets annoyed when people don't agree with her (Nyn and Elayne not taking her side immediately), she thinks the WT is the proper institution for controlling channelers (manipulating the Windfinders/Aiel was a good move for the Amyrlin, but for the girl who trained with them? Pfah), she STILL thinks men can't be trusted, she compares her trials to Rand, etc., etc., etc.

 

She's just... an Aes Sedai. To the bone. She is the epitome of an Aes Sedai. She is the Amyrlin, not Egwene. Perhaps that's what she needs to be for the WT, but it's NOT what she needs to be for the world. She's putting the WT ahead of the world, just like (I think) Nynaeve implies.

 

Yes, there needs to be law and order after the LB, but it'd be helpful if she spared a little while to actually think ABOUT the LB instead of being super-Amyrlin.

 

This makes the entire situation with Rand awkward, because I can see her logic in wanting to resist him, or at least change his mind. I also enjoy that she doesn't see she's being manipulated, but that's beside the point. The PROBLEM with her undermining Rand is that she's doing just that--she's trying to take control. Is Rand necessarily the right leader for the LB? Perhaps not. But he sure as heck knows a lot more than Egwene, and her floundering to stop him is annoying.

 

By all means, try to stop him. But she doesn't have to get all high and mighty with everyone when they see a logic to his actions. She can resist him without being the Fuhrer Amyrlin.

 

Also, she's a moron for thinking Mesaana was the only one who wanted to kill her, especially after a raid on the tower and Gawyn fighting someone who attacked him with a knife.

 

I'm near frothing at the mouth here. I'm tempted to write my own book with a character similar to Egwene, just so i can kill her off and please all the people that hate her. That'll show her...

 

Oh well. I guess that means RJ did a good job with her character, eh?

 

 

 

side note: I wonder what Gawyn will do with those ter'angreal he pocketed... perhaps Tuon will meet the fate she intended for Egwene?

 

This is pretty much exactly how I feel. I haven't really liked her for a while now, but I did find myself mentally cheering for her quite a few times during tGS. In this book, though.. not so much. I'm trying to wrap my head around why she could possibly think bringing all the monarchs and all the armies of the world to confront Rand (who, for all she knows, might still be a bit aggressively insane), and try to - what, intimidate him into doing what she wants, even though she has no way of knowing what a good move is in this case?

 

She might (might!) have a case if this was angry insane Rand, but angry insane Rand would probably have blown the roof off the Hall, not calmly told her what he was going to do. But even if that were the case... I don't get the army gathering. I definitely get why it's a good move for Rand, and he manipulated her masterfully indeed, but from her perspective it makes no sense.

 

I knew I wasn't the biggest Egwene fan around when, half-way through the book, I caught myself sympathizing with Gawyn. Let's just say I haven't been his biggest fan either, but he was the reasonable one this time.

 

She makes me rant, she does.

[Duskfire]

Rand: I want to break the seals

Egwene: Your only the Dragon Reborn, you dont know what your talking about.

Rand: The rubble must be cleared

Egwene: Your plan sucks. I dont have one of my own, but I am sure thats not important.

Rand: Meet me in one month

Egwene: Excellent, I will use that month to attempt to bring rulers to my side and we'll be sure to confront you. Don't know what to do after that, but we'll figure it out.

 

Random Aes Sedai: Borderlands is being swamped by Trollocs

Egwene: Excellent, I will not help in anyway.

 

Gawyn: I chased an intruder around last night and then they tried to stab me.

Egwene: That must be Mesaana.

Gawyn: Why would Mesaana try and stab me?

Egwene: You dont know what your talking about. Go Away

Gawyn: Okay, I am leaving now

Egwene: What are you doing? Don't go away

 

Egwene: Rand has to answer for his Asha`man. They are his responsibility

Nynaeve: By that logic, doesn't that mean that the Aes Sedai who kidnapped Rand are yours?

Egwene: Of course not. You are obviously taking Rands side.

 

Egwene: Rand is planning on breaking the seals. You must help me stop him

Nynaeve: Well err... I trust Rand. He has done pretty good so far

Egwene: No your wrong. Rand is wrong.

Nynaeve: You put forward a convincing argument.

[golcarcol]

I actually have been thinking that Rand's whole scheme right now was to get Eggy to get EVERYONE in the same place at the same time. (and I an pretty sure Mat et al... Will be there too when Grady opens the gateway for them. If I recall he went with Perrin.) In this case he will be able to either take them all to bring the Seanchan to heel or go whoop the BT (or split nd do both with Logain in charge of BT.) After all that he will have a bigger and better army and a plan for TG.

 

Just seems that with everyone so worked up about breaking the seals now, if he were to go 'Just kidding for now, really need you to do this.' Seems like they would JUMP at that alternative to said seal breaking.

 

Jen-

 

But wouldn't Mat come out in Caemlyn? He will be worried about the fire going on there, which is going on around the same time of Egwene and Rand's meeting.

[Sharaman]

I actually have been thinking that Rand's whole scheme right now was to get Eggy to get EVERYONE in the same place at the same time. (and I an pretty sure Mat et al... Will be there too when Grady opens the gateway for them. If I recall he went with Perrin.) In this case he will be able to either take them all to bring the Seanchan to heel or go whoop the BT (or split nd do both with Logain in charge of BT.) After all that he will have a bigger and better army and a plan for TG.

 

Just seems that with everyone so worked up about breaking the seals now, if he were to go 'Just kidding for now, really need you to do this.' Seems like they would JUMP at that alternative to said seal breaking.

 

Jen-

 

But wouldn't Mat come out in Caemlyn? He will be worried about the fire going on there, which is going on around the same time of Egwene and Rand's meeting.

One nasty issue with Mat is the timeline. He could have spent an indeterminate time in Finnland.

We know the Caemlyn attack occurs while he's out at ToG but is he back in Westland?

[Bob T Dwarf]

One nasty issue with Mat is the timeline. He could have spent an indeterminate time in Finnland.

We know the Caemlyn attack occurs while he's out at ToG but is he back in Westland?

 

Probably. I'm with those who believe Olver winning at Snakes and Foxes coincides with Mat, Thom, and Moiraine breaking free of the Tower.

 

The problem is, they get out of the ToG sometime in the afternoon/early evening, and Grady is only supposed to spin a gateway at noon each day. That means, assuming Grady doesn't die, that there won't be another gateway until tomorrow for Mat.

 

Caemlyn is entirely up to Andorian troops, mercenaries, and the part of the Band that Talmanes commands.

 

It's also unclear how/when/why Mat would go to Merrilor. It may be that somebody in Caemlyn has the good sense to send to Merrilor for backup so Mat could end up meeting everybody in Caemlyn. Given how little good sense anybody has ever shown so far in this series, I'm not holding my breath for that, though.

[dfchang]

Check me on this but can't Moiraine weave a Gateway? She does have an angreal but I can't remember if she knows the weaves.

 

Dennis

[Hadilmir]

Check me on this but can't Moiraine weave a Gateway? She does have an angreal but I can't remember if she knows the weaves.

 

Dennis

 

Nope, Egwene discovered the saidar Traveling a month after Moiraine vanished.

[Jeangray]

Check me on this but can't Moiraine weave a Gateway? She does have an angreal but I can't remember if she knows the weaves.

 

Depends on what she bargained for with the Finns, I guess. Personally I think that she can do it now, with the help of her angreal of course.

[bubbers]

Excellent posts almost everyone! Egwene has been perfectly consistent since the beginning. Hating or thinking her self better than Rand since the beginning. It's always been about being better/more powerful than everyone else for her, since the beginning. It's amazing she isn't a darkfriend. Maybe there weren't any DF's in the two rivers to recruit her before? She doesn't kill babies, but she does crave power for power's sake.

 

She's almost never thought about the last battle, but she's almost always thought about making the tower stronger, or about getting rand in hand.

 

Rand clearly planned for egwene to get things going for him that he didn't have time to do, when he confronted her.

 

Rand isn't insane anymore, the light taint is holding off the dark taint.

 

His plan isn't complete, but it's partially formed, with a piece or two missing.

 

There will be enough generals there that all Rand needs to do now is to keep the land/spirits of people in good enough shape, and to get them coordinated.

 

The WO's and windfinders would've done as rand asked, and if the WT was the last group to be left out, they would've joined just so they could try to influence. And Rand gathered more nations than the AS managed to influence in the books timeframe. So Egwene was there as an unintentional blocker for the dream team. Her power hunger made herself a target for so many aes plots that they couldn't quickly put someone else in place to deal with Rand, the way Elaida wanted to. In the end, Egwene will either go rogue, and take a good chunk of the tower with her, go silent running and pretend like she's on Rands side so she can try to influence from the shadows, or just end up going with his plans becuase she either believes, or won't be able to convince enough people. She was/is truly just a device used by the pattern to make sure the tower was all lined up to follow rand at the right moment. It will work out like that.

 

Right now, we have a partial plan to deal with Rand, that doesn't seem likely to work, and a partial plan to fix the bores, which is missing a key piece or two, which way do we think the pattern is going to go?

 

The only question in my mind is how is the seanchan going to get fitted into the pact? If the seanchan attack the tower, and find out where everyone is, they'll go right there, and if mat shows up right then too, well then maybe he can fix that. So maybe perrin will deal with one crazy woman wanting rands head on one side, and mat can deal with the other crazy woman wanting rands head on the other. Everyone else will just fall in line after that.

 

In avi's visions, the seanchan were part of the dragon's pact, only the ael breaking their word started them warring again. That means they need to be there when the pact is made as well. Maybe rand will say something like this to tuon, "I'll kneel before you right now, in front of all these people, if you sign a pact of peace". The old Rand wouldn't've done it, but the new rand would.

 

Tuon would take the offer, she's a good enough ruler to do that.

[randsc]

Egwene's attitude is further proof of the incompetence of the Aes Sedai as an organization.

 

Leave aside the fact that Egwene and the Tower have no plan of their own. That they continue to feel that they have the right to "guide" the ENTIRE BLEEDING WORLD in spite of the absolute bollocks they have made of the job. That she, unlike certain other characters, hasn't gotten over her female chauvinist tendencies.

 

Just focus on this: how stupid is it to try to prevent Rand from breaking the seals by gathering armies? Could every army in the world prevent that occurrence? No. And she must, at some level, realize that. She is a character so horrifyingly awful she makes me sympathize with her boyfriend, who is the biggest db in Randland. But she hasn't seemed STUPID before. It kind of makes me wonder if, consciously or unconsciously, she is actually trying to do what Rand wants. Ta'veren twisting, maybe?

 

I greatly (greatly, greatly, GREATLY!) enjoyed Perrin making a fool of her in the Dream.

[TheTuninator]

Yup, that was priceless. "But that's balefire!" "It's just a weave." "It's not just a weave-" "Yeah, okay, sure, kbye." It was nice to see a male character actually show her up. I'm reaaally hoping Rand does the same at the Great Meeting.

 

I'm sure Moiraine will have something to say about what she's been doing as well; Moiraine is perhaps the only Aes Sedai so far who has understood that they need to step off their holier-than-thou pedestal to truly succeed. Even Cadsuane, with all her experienced, botched that one; Rand wilingly accepted Moiraine's help and nearly killed Cadsuane.

[bubbers]

Yah, moraine was doing an awesome job of helping rand, and getting some of her wishes done in return. Egwene gave her shiz for it, because she thought moraine should be dominating him or something. Moraine replied with "I remembered how to guide saidar" referring to submitting to it before you can guide it. Egwene nodded like she knew all along. But she went the route all other AS but moraine and verin went, the "I AM THE KING OF ENGLAND!" route.

[smileyman]

Yup, that was priceless. "But that's balefire!" "It's just a weave." "It's not just a weave-" "Yeah, okay, sure, kbye." It was nice to see a male character actually show her up. I'm reaaally hoping Rand does the same at the Great Meeting.

 

I'm sure Moiraine will have something to say about what she's been doing as well; Moiraine is perhaps the only Aes Sedai so far who has understood that they need to step off their holier-than-thou pedestal to truly succeed. Even Cadsuane, with all her experienced, botched that one; Rand wilingly accepted Moiraine's help and nearly killed Cadsuane.

 

Moraine wasn't doing so hot with that holier-than-thou atitude until Rand made her swear an oath to him.

[apaeter]

Don't have anything of substance to add, but I'm delighted to find a place to vent my frustrations about all the times in ToM where someone, mostly Egwene and Elayne I think, fumes about Rand intending to break the Dark One's prison's seals, completely leaving out the little detail that this might be the only way to get the job done. (According to the guy who actually has to do the re-sealing, at that.) I never really liked those two girls, but that was aggravating. I was very happy to discover that my main man Perrin figured that out immediately.