Discuss The Full Book

[Diederichos]

A previous poster said that Mat waited out the time in Caemlyn after opening Verin's letter which warned that a Trolloc army was headed through the CAem waygate(would have thought that Rand warded it when he was doing the others?), but that he didn't do it? Why didn't he do it or did he try and Elayne didn't listen?

[TSignus]

A previous poster said that Mat waited out the time in Caemlyn after opening Verin's letter which warned that a Trolloc army was headed through the CAem waygate(would have thought that Rand warded it when he was doing the others?), but that he didn't do it? Why didn't he do it or did he try and Elayne didn't listen?

 

He never opened the letter at all. He waited it out and then decided he'd just never open it.

 

Olver opens it in the epilogue, but it's too late and the Trolloc army has already come.

[TSignus]

So why is this book called Towers of Midnight?!!!

 

 

I think it refers to a dream Egwene has early on. There are 13 massive black towers around her, but then they begin to collapse, until only 6 remain. The one of the 6 crumbles, but suddenly springs up taller and mightier than all of the rest. I'm pretty sure this is about the Forsaken (there were 6 remaining at the time of that dream and one of the six (Ishamael) died (back in Book 3), so his tower collapsed and then sprung back up taller than the rest (since as Moridin he is now Nae'blis).

[fionwe1987]

That is such a pity... one of Verin's failures, tough she isn't entirely to blame. So, MAt actually breaks his Oath, and Trollocs come pouring in? That has the sound of extreme irony to it!

[Tensai0211]

Someone asked why the book is called Towers of Midnight, I think this is a dual reference to the Towers of Midnight in Seanchan and to the Forsaken. One of Egwenes' dreams is of thirteen black towers falling one by one until only six remain, it took me a few hours to realize at this point in the book there are still six Forsaken alive(Moridin, Demandred, Moghedian, Graendal, Mesaana and Cyndane) the part where one tower falls, then recovers taller and stronger than the rest I took to mean the rise of Moridin as Nae'blis.

 

to Jasons reference to something in the story that has a big impact and epitomizes why the series is far beyond any other epic fantasy i believe this is Aviendhas vision of the future in near Avendesora. To see the Aiel could fall so far that even the idea of honor could be forgotten was mindblowing. I think this is foreshadowing the "remnant of a remnant" that the Aiel need to find honor in peace again not in war.

 

Perrins growth in this book is great as he faces his past, finds peace with the wolf in himself and basically gets back to being a badass. It was slow to start but once it got underway there was no stopping it(which if you think about Perrins personality is a perfect fit, a careful, deep thinker who is slow to action but once he gets moving he's like a force of nature) and the final scene with Hopper just choked me up. Then when he finally makes his hammer and honors Hopper when naming it(and the not so subtle reference to Moljnir too) a perfect finish for Perrin.

 

Rand seems to be permanently linked to Saidin now, i took this from Nynaeve delving him and seeing the light holding back the darkness of the taint madness and Aviendhas' vision of their children where they are permanently linked to the One power - i guess they inherited it.

[Sarlic]

Very little has been said about Moiraine, other than she was rescued and Noal is left behind in the process.

 

Can she still channel or was she stilled? Does she have anything important to say? Any mention of her bond to Lan and how it was severed? What happened to Lanfear beyond te Ter'angreal gate? Anything at all?

 

What about "Suffa" - I'm guessing no mention since I'm reading the Seanchan are largely absent from the book -- despite it's title being "Towers of Midnight."

Finally -- I'm reading a lot about the prophecy at the end of the book. Anyone care to transcribe?

 

And damn all you people that got early copies, I called like 10 independent bookstores in the Philadelphia and Baltimore area and no one had it!! :-)

[fionwe1987]

I spent four hours looking for the book in Illinois myself... One place said they had two copies, and both were sold before I came in. :(

 

So, this continuous link to saidin thing... Seems amazing. And only Avi's children inherit it? Weird. What is special about Aviendha that this happens only to her kids?

 

And the Aiel continue fighting and lose honor? That somehow doesn't seem to fit the story till now. Except for these red-veiled Aiel. Who the hell are they?

 

Did Avi see anything about the Aes Sedai? Also... did she specifically do something so she could see the future or is that what the Glass Columns do for everyone now?

[TSignus]

That is such a pity... one of Verin's failures, tough she isn't entirely to blame. So, MAt actually breaks his Oath, and Trollocs come pouring in? That has the sound of extreme irony to it!

 

No, he keeps his oath. He had to wait ten days before opening it (unless she returned first). He then could open it any time for the next 20 days (until day 30), but he'd have to do what it instructed. After day 30, he could open or not open it however he chose. He waited til the end and chose not to open it.

[Diederichos]

What is the prophecy(is there one?) at the end of the book?'

 

Edit: Btw, thanks a lot to everyone that's answering, really awesome job/

[TSignus]

Very little has been said about Moiraine, other than she was rescued and Noal is left behind in the process.

 

Can she still channel or was she stilled? Does she have anything important to say? Any mention of her bond to Lan and how it was severed? What happened to Lanfear beyond te Ter'angreal gate? Anything at all?

 

What about "Suffa" - I'm guessing no mention since I'm reading the Seanchan are largely absent from the book -- despite it's title being "Towers of Midnight."

Finally -- I'm reading a lot about the prophecy at the end of the book. Anyone care to transcribe?

 

And damn all you people that got early copies, I called like 10 independent bookstores in the Philadelphia and Baltimore area and no one had it!! :-)

 

Moiraine can channel, but has lost nearly all her power (Apparently the Eelfinn can drain your ability to channel, which also explains why Lanfear is much less powerful now). In fact, Moiraine says she couldn't channel strongly enough to become Aes Sedai if she was a novice anymore. However, she got to keep the angreal that Lanfear had been using when they fell through the doorway. With it, she is more powerful than she was originally.

 

Suffa does have one scene with Tuon.

[Diederichos]

Really? I thought someone said there was no Seanchan presence in teh book, in that case, how is that scene and what else does Tuon/the SEanchan do?

[fionwe1987]

Oh nice! It makes thematic sense that Moiraine and Siuan are both reduced now.

 

And does Suffa resist at all, or give up her secrets immediately? From the absence of Seanchan in the story, I think they don't get Traveling easily.

 

Also, can the Aes Sedai face the Seanchan after ToM? Have they been training?

[TSignus]

Oh nice! It makes thematic sense that Moiraine and Siuan are both reduced now.

 

And does Suffa resist at all, or give up her secrets immediately? From the absence of Seanchan in the story, I think they don't get Traveling easily.

 

Also, can the Aes Sedai face the Seanchan after ToM? Have they been training?

 

She resists some and tries to offer to trade 10 or even 20 other Aes Sedai for her freedom, but is ignored. They ultimately learn Traveling from her and Tuon prepares her forces for a massive assault on the White Tower to raze it to the ground. I have a feeling the opening of Book 14 will be this force confronting the assembled armies of Rand and all of his allies that are at Tar Valon.

 

I suppose somewhat, but there's not much made on whether or not the Aes Sedai have been focusing on combat or not.

[TSignus]

Here's the closing prophecy:

 

Lo, it shall come upon the world that the prison of the Greatest One shall grow weak, like the limbs of those who crafted it. Once again, His glorious cloak shall smother the Pattern of all things, and the Great Lord shall stretch forth His hand to claim what is His. The rebellious nations shall be laid barren, their children caused to weep. There shall be none but Him, and those who have turned their eyes to His majesty.

 

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

 

And then, shall the Lord of the Evening come. And He shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and He shall take our skin, for our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will we praise. And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful. Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!

 

-from The Prophecies of the Shadow

[Alleluia_Cone]

 

She resists some and tries to offer to trade 10 or even 20 other Aes Sedai for her freedom, but is ignored. They ultimately learn Traveling from her and Tuon prepares her forces for a massive assault on the White Tower to raze it to the ground.

 

Wow . . . so she totally folds and just gives them the weave?

[Beren]

Oh nice! It makes thematic sense that Moiraine and Siuan are both reduced now.

 

And does Suffa resist at all, or give up her secrets immediately? From the absence of Seanchan in the story, I think they don't get Traveling easily.

 

Also, can the Aes Sedai face the Seanchan after ToM? Have they been training?

 

Oh, they get Traveling all right and from Avhienda's visions of the future, that is NOT a good thing at all.

[Terez]

Also, some of what people say in this book about Mat further solidify his ties with the figure of Odin...

 

Based on several other things in the Norse mythology, I think that Perrin is going to die in TG, being killed by the leader of the Wild Hunt who will in turn be killed by someone very close to Perrin.

 

If you go by Norse Religion, all three of the ta'veren lads will die. Which we know will not happen, since we know for a fact that Mat survives.

Mat died, and lived again. ;)

 

 

For others who have Towers of Midnight, what did you make of the part with Lanfear and Rand at the end? Is it possible that some of the (seemingly) loony theories that she might actually end up being good will come true?

 

Im not sure...Lanfear was supposed to be a pretty talented dreamwalker which makes me a little skeptical of her being in any real trouble. what disturbed me the most was the "desire" that the Dragon feels for her..

 

The Lanfear thing was pretty awesome IMO. Took me a little while to figure it out because I missed something very important in chapter 5 in my excitement and haste. I don't mind breaking down this one at all, partly because it's less than 1% of the book (though I admit it's a huge theme in the book), but also partly because I doubt most people would pick it up on first read anyway. So for all of you complaining about no spoilers, here are some major ones, with some hints from the past as well:

 

1. The 'desire' struck all of us as quite odd, didn't it? Rand said way back in book 5 that Lanfear disgusted him, that she was out of his heart long before he met Ilyena. In fact, that's the first time he realizes where those weird thoughts are coming from. The first time we know for sure he can remember her, that he can remember anything of his past life at all, is in book 4, when she tells him she loved him, and he says, 'and you loved power!' But Rand never even showed a hint of desire for her - not after he realized who she was.

 

2. In TOM chapter five, Graendal is trying to convince Moridin that she did a good thing by making Rand kill all those people, because of the anguish it would cause him. She said she was just following orders. She muses to herself that she can only vaguely recall what it felt like to care about people like that. She further muses on the different paths to the Shadow among the Chosen. And she thinks to herself that yes, Moridin would understand exactly what Rand was feeling. This implies that, like her, Ishamael once had a heart.

 

3. Rand has managed to reverse some effects of the Shadow's influence on him, but he and Moridin are merging. That's what Min's viewing warns of. They are becoming the same person. Rand saw this in a dream way back in TEOTW. There are other huge hints about this that we will discuss when the book comes out.

 

All of a sudden, that desire makes sense. Did Ishamael turn to the Shadow because he loved Mierin?

 

Now, this is kind of strange in a way, because if Mierin just loved power, then surely Elan Morin was the next best thing, right?

 

But he was never a natural leader. He makes a good one for the Shadow, but that is because the Shadow requires entirely different things. He had strength in the Power, intelligence, cunning, talent, and he was even handsome. He had the honored third name. But he probably did not have the charisma of Lews Therin, and therefore didn't have the same power over other people that Lews Therin inherently had. So he was not attractive to Mierin.

 

And then Mierin was one of the first to go over to the Shadow. Because she was desperate for a way to make Lews Therin hers again. Elan Morin was also one of the first to go over to the Shadow. Because he wanted a way to make Mierin his?

 

I don't think it's so far-fetched. A quote from RJ:

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 24 October 1998, Palo Alto - Drew Gillmore reporting

 

Chris asked if Moghedien had been raped by Shaidar Haran. The answer was "Yes, among other things."...someone asked if Lanfear had been raped as well, and he answered right away with a "No".

 

Fascinating, isn't it? Why wouldn't Cyndane be raped by Shaidar Haran, when Moghedien was, and Mesaana, and now Graendal?

 

TITLE - The Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 13 - Wonderful News

 

Putting a hand over his heart, for all the world like a lover, Moridin tilted up Cyndane's chin on his fingertips. Resentment burned in her eyes, but her face might have been a doll's unchanging face. She certainly accepted his attentions like a pliable doll. "Cyndane knows many things," Moridin said softly, "and she tells me everything she knows. Everything." The tiny woman's expression never altered, but she trembled visibly.

Moiraine says that she remembers waking in 'Finnland one day with a man there, telling the 'Finns that this was not the woman he wanted.

 

Moridin went into Ghenjei to save Lanfear. And he had to pay a price for it, most likely. What was that price? I can think of a few things...one of them being the time Moridin saved Rand in Shadar Logoth. The timing is right; we first see Moridin just before then, and we first see Cyndane in the next book.

 

Finally, Moridin asked Rand, "How did you come here?" when Rand showed up in his dream. Maybe he really didn't know that it was possible before then, and this is Moridin invading Rand's dreams, trying to draw him into danger by playing on his savior mentality.

[TSignus]

 

She resists some and tries to offer to trade 10 or even 20 other Aes Sedai for her freedom, but is ignored. They ultimately learn Traveling from her and Tuon prepares her forces for a massive assault on the White Tower to raze it to the ground.

 

Wow . . . so she totally folds and just gives them the weave?

 

Basically. She's been held for a while though, so clearly she's already undergone some training.

[TSignus]

Also, some of what people say in this book about Mat further solidify his ties with the figure of Odin...

 

Based on several other things in the Norse mythology, I think that Perrin is going to die in TG, being killed by the leader of the Wild Hunt who will in turn be killed by someone very close to Perrin.

 

If you go by Norse Religion, all three of the ta'veren lads will die. Which we know will not happen, since we know for a fact that Mat survives.

Mat died, and lived again. ;)

 

 

For others who have Towers of Midnight, what did you make of the part with Lanfear and Rand at the end? Is it possible that some of the (seemingly) loony theories that she might actually end up being good will come true?

 

Im not sure...Lanfear was supposed to be a pretty talented dreamwalker which makes me a little skeptical of her being in any real trouble. what disturbed me the most was the "desire" that the Dragon feels for her..

 

The Lanfear thing was pretty awesome IMO. Took me a little while to figure it out because I missed something very important in chapter 5 in my excitement and haste. I don't mind breaking down this one at all, partly because it's less than 1% of the book (though I admit it's a huge theme in the book), but also partly because I doubt most people would pick it up on first read anyway. So for all of you complaining about no spoilers, here are some major ones, with some hints from the past as well:

 

1. The 'desire' struck all of us as quite odd, didn't it? Rand said way back in book 5 that Lanfear disgusted him, that she was out of his heart long before he met Ilyena. In fact, that's the first time he realizes where those weird thoughts are coming from. The first time we know for sure he can remember her, that he can remember anything of his past life at all, is in book 4, when she tells him she loved him, and he says, 'and you loved power!' But Rand never even showed a hint of desire for her - not after he realized who she was.

 

2. In TOM chapter five, Graendal is trying to convince Moridin that she did a good thing by making Rand kill all those people, because of the anguish it would cause him. She said she was just following orders. She muses to herself that she can only vaguely recall what it felt like to care about people like that. She further muses on the different paths to the Shadow among the Chosen. And she thinks to herself that yes, Moridin would understand exactly what Rand was feeling. This implies that, like her, Ishamael once had a heart.

 

3. Rand has managed to reverse some effects of the Shadow's influence on him, but he and Moridin are merging. That's what Min's viewing warns of. They are becoming the same person. Rand saw this in a dream way back in TEOTW. There are other huge hints about this that we will discuss when the book comes out.

 

All of a sudden, that desire makes sense. Did Ishamael turn to the Shadow because he loved Mierin?

 

Now, this is kind of strange in a way, because if Mierin just loved power, then surely Elan Morin was the next best thing, right?

 

But he was never a natural leader. He makes a good one for the Shadow, but that is because the Shadow requires entirely different things. He had strength in the Power, intelligence, cunning, talent, and he was even handsome. He had the honored third name. But he probably did not have the charisma of Lews Therin, and therefore didn't have the same power over other people that Lews Therin inherently had. So he was not attractive to Mierin.

 

And then Mierin was one of the first to go over to the Shadow. Because she was desperate for a way to make Lews Therin hers again. Elan Morin was also one of the first to go over to the Shadow. Because he wanted a way to make Mierin his?

 

I don't think it's so far-fetched. A quote from RJ:

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 24 October 1998, Palo Alto - Drew Gillmore reporting

 

Chris asked if Moghedien had been raped by Shaidar Haran. The answer was "Yes, among other things."...someone asked if Lanfear had been raped as well, and he answered right away with a "No".

 

Fascinating, isn't it? Why wouldn't Cyndane be raped by Shaidar Haran, when Moghedien was, and Mesaana, and now Graendal?

 

TITLE - The Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 13 - Wonderful News

 

Putting a hand over his heart, for all the world like a lover, Moridin tilted up Cyndane's chin on his fingertips. Resentment burned in her eyes, but her face might have been a doll's unchanging face. She certainly accepted his attentions like a pliable doll. "Cyndane knows many things," Moridin said softly, "and she tells me everything she knows. Everything." The tiny woman's expression never altered, but she trembled visibly.

Moiraine says that she remembers waking in 'Finnland one day with a man there, telling the 'Finns that this was not the woman he wanted.

 

Moridin went into Ghenjei to save Lanfear. And he had to pay a price for it, most likely. What was that price? I can think of a few things...one of them being the time Moridin saved Rand in Shadar Logoth. The timing is right; we first see Moridin just before then, and we first see Cyndane in the next book.

 

Finally, Moridin asked Rand, "How did you come here?" when Rand showed up in his dream. Maybe he really didn't know that it was possible before then, and this is Moridin invading Rand's dreams, trying to draw him into danger by playing on his savior mentality.

 

Wow, you're right. This book really did open a whole lot of questions into just what the circumstances surrounding Elan Morin going over to the shadow involved. The glossary states that Graendal was the second to go over to the shadow, but has it ever clarified who was the first?

[fionwe1987]

OMG Terez... That makes so much sense! I don't think Ishy turned to the Shadow for love, but I do think his nihilistic thoughts stemmed from Meirin's refusal.

 

And think of this too: Lanfear was the only Foresaken who showed contempt for Ishamael. This was way back in book 3. I used to think this was so because she was as powerful as him. But what if the reason is that she knew he used to love her?

[sumquy]

Also, some of what people say in this book about Mat further solidify his ties with the figure of Odin...

 

Based on several other things in the Norse mythology, I think that Perrin is going to die in TG, being killed by the leader of the Wild Hunt who will in turn be killed by someone very close to Perrin.

 

If you go by Norse Religion, all three of the ta'veren lads will die. Which we know will not happen, since we know for a fact that Mat survives.

Mat died, and lived again. ;)

 

 

For others who have Towers of Midnight, what did you make of the part with Lanfear and Rand at the end? Is it possible that some of the (seemingly) loony theories that she might actually end up being good will come true?

 

Im not sure...Lanfear was supposed to be a pretty talented dreamwalker which makes me a little skeptical of her being in any real trouble. what disturbed me the most was the "desire" that the Dragon feels for her..

 

The Lanfear thing was pretty awesome IMO. Took me a little while to figure it out because I missed something very important in chapter 5 in my excitement and haste. I don't mind breaking down this one at all, partly because it's less than 1% of the book (though I admit it's a huge theme in the book), but also partly because I doubt most people would pick it up on first read anyway. So for all of you complaining about no spoilers, here are some major ones, with some hints from the past as well:

 

1. The 'desire' struck all of us as quite odd, didn't it? Rand said way back in book 5 that Lanfear disgusted him, that she was out of his heart long before he met Ilyena. In fact, that's the first time he realizes where those weird thoughts are coming from. The first time we know for sure he can remember her, that he can remember anything of his past life at all, is in book 4, when she tells him she loved him, and he says, 'and you loved power!' But Rand never even showed a hint of desire for her - not after he realized who she was.

 

2. In TOM chapter five, Graendal is trying to convince Moridin that she did a good thing by making Rand kill all those people, because of the anguish it would cause him. She said she was just following orders. She muses to herself that she can only vaguely recall what it felt like to care about people like that. She further muses on the different paths to the Shadow among the Chosen. And she thinks to herself that yes, Moridin would understand exactly what Rand was feeling. This implies that, like her, Ishamael once had a heart.

 

3. Rand has managed to reverse some effects of the Shadow's influence on him, but he and Moridin are merging. That's what Min's viewing warns of. They are becoming the same person. Rand saw this in a dream way back in TEOTW. There are other huge hints about this that we will discuss when the book comes out.

 

All of a sudden, that desire makes sense. Did Ishamael turn to the Shadow because he loved Mierin?

 

Now, this is kind of strange in a way, because if Mierin just loved power, then surely Elan Morin was the next best thing, right?

 

But he was never a natural leader. He makes a good one for the Shadow, but that is because the Shadow requires entirely different things. He had strength in the Power, intelligence, cunning, talent, and he was even handsome. He had the honored third name. But he probably did not have the charisma of Lews Therin, and therefore didn't have the same power over other people that Lews Therin inherently had. So he was not attractive to Mierin.

 

And then Mierin was one of the first to go over to the Shadow. Because she was desperate for a way to make Lews Therin hers again. Elan Morin was also one of the first to go over to the Shadow. Because he wanted a way to make Mierin his?

 

I don't think it's so far-fetched. A quote from RJ:

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 24 October 1998, Palo Alto - Drew Gillmore reporting

 

Chris asked if Moghedien had been raped by Shaidar Haran. The answer was "Yes, among other things."...someone asked if Lanfear had been raped as well, and he answered right away with a "No".

 

Fascinating, isn't it? Why wouldn't Cyndane be raped by Shaidar Haran, when Moghedien was, and Mesaana, and now Graendal?

 

TITLE - The Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 13 - Wonderful News

 

Putting a hand over his heart, for all the world like a lover, Moridin tilted up Cyndane's chin on his fingertips. Resentment burned in her eyes, but her face might have been a doll's unchanging face. She certainly accepted his attentions like a pliable doll. "Cyndane knows many things," Moridin said softly, "and she tells me everything she knows. Everything." The tiny woman's expression never altered, but she trembled visibly.

Moiraine says that she remembers waking in 'Finnland one day with a man there, telling the 'Finns that this was not the woman he wanted.

 

Moridin went into Ghenjei to save Lanfear. And he had to pay a price for it, most likely. What was that price? I can think of a few things...one of them being the time Moridin saved Rand in Shadar Logoth. The timing is right; we first see Moridin just before then, and we first see Cyndane in the next book.

 

Finally, Moridin asked Rand, "How did you come here?" when Rand showed up in his dream. Maybe he really didn't know that it was possible before then, and this is Moridin invading Rand's dreams, trying to draw him into danger by playing on his savior mentality.

 

wow...ya maybe. maybe. how much of that is from the book and how much your thought? like graendal thinking that moridin would no exactly what rand was feeling. is it possible that she knows they are merging? i remember in tgs she thought in one scene that they were starting to look alike in their mannerisms.

 

the timing IS right. but how would the do feel about moridin saving rand under those circumstances? hard to know cuz we've seen mordidn swing back and forth on kill him, don't kill him so many times now. hard to think of anything worse than having to be ishy/moridins lover.

[Alleluia_Cone]

It does kind of make sense, given that scene between them when Lanfear brushes him off from one of the earlier books. I wonder if this implies that Lanfear is being truthful about wanting to be saved or if she is setting a trap in conjunction with Moridin.

 

By the way: Is it ever explained why Lanfear lost her body?

[fionwe1987]

Graendal being the second has come up before. Also, we know Elan Morin was the first to publicly announce his support for the Shadow, and that the fact that such a deeply respected philosopher turned caused a ton of chaos (as did Graendal's turning).

 

It does seem that the history of the Foresaken is going to have a powerful impact on the story. That is very interesting indeed.

 

About the Seanchan:

 

So Tuon got freaked out but sa'angreal enhanced Egwene and decided to raze the Tower? Not surprising. This makes Egwene's dream all the more interesting.

[Terez]

wow...ya maybe. maybe. how much of that is from the book and how much your thought?

Everything is from the book, really. We don't know for sure if the desire was Moridin's desire rather than Rand's, but considering the merging, and the fact that Lews Therin says she disgusts him, it seems to be the only thing that makes sense. We don't know for sure that the man in 'Finnland was Moridin. It could have been Slayer - lots of people seem to think that Slayer hangs out there, since he appeared to disappear into it in book 4 (I think he was trying to lure Perrin into entering and getting trapped there). But it fits with everything else we know. We don't know for sure that the dream was something Moridin did, but it's the only explanation that makes sense. No one should be able to invade his dreams...that's why Moridin was so shocked when Rand showed up in his dream without Moridin taking him there.

 

 

I like graendal thinking that moridin would no exactly what rand was feeling. is it possible that she knows they are merging?

I don't think so. She was only thinking that Moridin was once human, that he once cared about people. She contrasted him and herself with Semirhage, who was always heartless. Graendal was a healer as well, in a way...she worked with the mentally ill, and she was well-liked. Semirhage always exacted her price for her Healing. Rand seems to confirm this in his meeting with Moridin in the dream...he calls him Elan, as if he has known him intimately for a long time, as if they were once friends. Maybe he wasn't always so bad. Rand says it was his logic that destroyed him, but what if Mierin had something to do with it?

 

i remember in tgs she thought in one scene that they were starting to look alike in their mannerisms.

Yes, but she didn't come to any conclusions, not even when she noticed him having trouble with his hand.

 

the timing IS right. but how would the do feel about moridin saving rand under those circumstances? hard to know cuz we've seen mordidn swing back and forth on kill him, don't kill him so many times now.

Yeah, well...the Ghenjei idea actually makes it more logical than it was before, since at least Moridin is getting another Chosen in exchange for losing Sammael.

[Terez]

It does kind of make sense, given that scene between them when Lanfear brushes him off from one of the earlier books. I wonder if this implies that Lanfear is being truthful about wanting to be saved or if she is setting a trap in conjunction with Moridin.

She shouldn't be able to get into Rand's dreams. Perhaps the cour'souvra makes it possible, but to me it seems overly complicated to assume that she was actually there. More likely a dream construct made by Moridin. The room where Cyndane was screaming seemed to be like a huge, overturned skull to Rand. I found that fascinating.

 

By the way: Is it ever explained why Lanfear lost her body?

So far as I can recall, it's left mysterious. Moiraine says the 'Finns claim to have killed her by draining her too fast, but that is when she brings up the man who came for her.