Discuss The Full Book

[Aquarius]

Yeah Perrin and Mat evolving needed to happen, indeed, it's just the lack of big chock like "oh my god the fireball destroyed his hand" or "omg he IS cleansing saidin!".

So YES, this is a great book. I would tend to prefer KoD and tGS (in no particular order) just for the sake of more suspense.

 

I will try to reread the whole thing through to get things into perspective, but PoD, most of WH and CoT are really a pain to get to reread.

[tneva82]

It's good that the White Tower did seek more humane ways to deal with the madness, even if they failed. But still, that doesn't justify perceiving and treating male channelers as something less than human. And that's what I've been questioning all along: the White Tower's prejudiced and biased ways towards their male counterparts. I for one, find it sickening.

 

So what would you prefer? Let them go insane killing countless innocent people? "Ah that's just the way it has to be. We can't prevent it as it would be prejudice against men".

 

Yeah right.

 

Also it's lot more human than let them go insane. They would be dead anyway. Would you prefer having shot at not dying and even if you die you die sane or do you prefer to die insane, rotting and killing innocent people along?

 

I'll quarantee you that if something like this would be possible in our world every country would be 100% sure to make damned sure those male's don't get chance to go insane. Gentling if possible, if not then "death on sight". It's simply too inhuman and irresponsible to do anything else.

[Darth Krewl]

So what would you prefer? Let them go insane killing countless innocent people? "Ah that's just the way it has to be. We can't prevent it as it would be prejudice against men".

 

Yeah right.

 

Also it's lot more human than let them go insane. They would be dead anyway. Would you prefer having shot at not dying and even if you die you die sane or do you prefer to die insane, rotting and killing innocent people along?

 

I'll quarantee you that if something like this would be possible in our world every country would be 100% sure to make damned sure those male's don't get chance to go insane. Gentling if possible, if not then "death on sight". It's simply too inhuman and irresponsible to do anything else.

 

Hmm...see, this is what happens when people pick up a certain thread right in the middle. They speculate instead of relying on fact.

 

In this case, my comment refers to the way Aes Sedai perceive men, even after the taint was cleansed. They still see them as less than their equals and feel uncomfortable around them. Even when, by this point, based on Nynaeve's testimony (especially after she's taken the Oaths) it should be clear that male channelers are just the same as their female counterparts. No more, no less.

 

So, in answer to your question, the best solution for me would be exactly that. Finding a way to remove the taint, instead of giving up and close to any and all possibilities to do it, just as Aes Sedai of the Third Age are wont to do with everything that surpasses their very limited powers of comprehension.

 

And, clearly, Mr. Jordan would seem to agree with me, since he made it possible. Otherwise, I think he would've chosen to leave the taint intact. Took them more than 3000 yrs. to do it, but it was done and now, there's no need to hunt male channelers as wild animals anymore.

[Mr Ares]

So what would you prefer? Let them go insane killing countless innocent people? "Ah that's just the way it has to be. We can't prevent it as it would be prejudice against men".

 

Yeah right.

 

Also it's lot more human than let them go insane. They would be dead anyway. Would you prefer having shot at not dying and even if you die you die sane or do you prefer to die insane, rotting and killing innocent people along?

 

I'll quarantee you that if something like this would be possible in our world every country would be 100% sure to make damned sure those male's don't get chance to go insane. Gentling if possible, if not then "death on sight". It's simply too inhuman and irresponsible to do anything else.

 

Hmm...see, this is what happens when people pick up a certain thread right in the middle. They speculate instead of relying on fact.

 

In this case, my comment refers to the way Aes Sedai perceive men, even after the taint was cleansed. They still see them as less than their equals and feel uncomfortable around them. Even when, by this point, based on Nynaeve's testimony (especially after she's taken the Oaths) it should be clear that male channelers are just the same as their female counterparts. No more, no less.

 

So, in answer to your question, the best solution for me would be exactly that. Finding a way to remove the taint, instead of giving up and close to any and all possibilities to do it, just as Aes Sedai of the Third Age are wont to do with everything that surpasses their very limited powers of comprehension.

 

And, clearly, Mr. Jordan would seem to agree with me, since he made it possible. Otherwise, I think he would've chosen to leave the taint intact. Took them more than 3000 yrs. to do it, but it was done and now, there's no need to hunt male channelers as wild animals anymore.

Male channelers were never hunted like animals by the AS. The AS seeing men as less than them is understandable - they tend to see everyone who isn't an AS as lesser - even if not justifiable, and their being uncomfortable around male channelers is, I would say, quite justified for most of the series. After all, male channelers were going insane, and they didn't have any way to help them besides gentling. They don't need to be uncomfortable any more (although Asha'man are not exactly the most comforting thing out there), but those feelings are not going to go away over night. As for Cleansing the taint, we don't know how long it was before the AS gave up on it, but if you hit a brick wall and make no progress, then sooner or later you probably will give up.

[Darth Krewl]

Male channelers were never hunted like animals by the AS. The AS seeing men as less than them is understandable - they tend to see everyone who isn't an AS as lesser - even if not justifiable, and their being uncomfortable around male channelers is, I would say, quite justified for most of the series. After all, male channelers were going insane, and they didn't have any way to help them besides gentling. They don't need to be uncomfortable any more (although Asha'man are not exactly the most comforting thing out there), but those feelings are not going to go away over night. As for Cleansing the taint, we don't know how long it was before the AS gave up on it, but if you hit a brick wall and make no progress, then sooner or later you probably will give up.

 

According to the U.N's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, any person who is seen as less than human and subjected to cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment is being treated like an animal. This I know well, believe me. So, I suggest you look that up, Mr. Ares, before you state an opinion based on personal interpretation (and preference, perhaps) that, while respectable, seems to be completely out of place for lack of sustainable knowledge on the subject.

 

As for the taint, I'm no fool, of course. I do realize that TWoT is a fantasy story and that the cleansing, along with other "prodigious" feats conducted by Rand and Nynaeve, such as healing severing and/or madness, are there to show us, the readers, that these are not your avg. run-of-the-mill country kids but exceptional channelers. Just like the Skywalkers are no mere farmers or slaves from Tatooine or the Hobbits no mere Halflings from the Shire, so on and so forth. Hence, they are achieving feats that others couldn't even dream of, even back in the Age of Legends.

 

Still, the fact remains: the taint was removed, meaning that it could be done. Not my fault that the female AS of the Third Age are such an incompetent lot; that they could never go outside the box on nearly anything that they ever did, sticking instead to their square, rigid ways for generations. Taking that into consideration, it's only natural to expect these "primitives and children playing at Aes Sedai", to quote the Forsaken, not to take well to the radical changes that the heroes of their Age are bringing.

 

But that doesn't change the fact that their views are wrong. That they are one extremely prejudiced bunch of people. That their ways are degrading and inhuman. And finally, that their Tower is crumbling as the result of their negligence and narrow ways. You can say all you want to counter my points, but the taint could be cleansed, the madness healed and nothing you can say will change that fact nor the fact that male channelers should be seen as equals eventually by their female counterparts.

 

Of course it won't happen overnight (and these women's narrow minds make it even worse than it should be) but that doesn't justify them seeing men as less than their equals. I'm not saying that they should embrace them right away. Just respect them the way they should, because the rules of the game have changed and, try as she might, Egwene al'Vere is not above Rand al'Thor, like she would like her whole world to believe.

 

As for the Asha'man not being the "most comforting thing out there", I don't remember any non-Aes Sedai character - including women - feeling comfortable around any "sisters" at any point in the series, either.

[blazetheearth]

The thing I find funniest about the whole Cleansing + effects on WT is that in the end (through absolutely NO ACTION sanctioned or agreed to by either the SAS or WT) the White Tower will end up getting credit for it and I am sure that there are several in the WT (all the way up to the highest levels even) that will claim that it was done by "Aes Sedai working with a man channeling".

 

Unfortunately, that is the one thing that I didn't like about Nyn's testing in the Tower. I completely understand her point of view on her having been raised by Eggy, and therefore was AS before she took the test. I truly understand and admire the way she stuck to that and smacked down the one that commented on it, but (and this is a big 'but') that leaves it open for the rest of the Aes Sedai to claim the credit for anything and everything that Nyn has done since being raised in Salidar. And I loathe the idea of ANY of the White Tower claiming credit for the Cleansing.

[Darth Krewl]

The thing I find funniest about the whole Cleansing + effects on WT is that in the end (through absolutely NO ACTION sanctioned or agreed to by either the SAS or WT) the White Tower will end up getting credit for it and I am sure that there are several in the WT (all the way up to the highest levels even) that will claim that it was done by "Aes Sedai working with a man channeling".

 

Unfortunately, that is the one thing that I didn't like about Nyn's testing in the Tower. I completely understand her point of view on her having been raised by Eggy, and therefore was AS before she took the test. I truly understand and admire the way she stuck to that and smacked down the one that commented on it, but (and this is a big 'but') that leaves it open for the rest of the Aes Sedai to claim the credit for anything and everything that Nyn has done since being raised in Salidar. And I loathe the idea of ANY of the White Tower claiming credit for the Cleansing.

 

Hmm...I don't think this will be the case. I think Jordan set up the whole White Tower arc beautifully, if only to let us bear witness to its fall.

 

And this, I think for 3 simple reasons that, IMO, are major themes in TWoT: balance, cycles and stability vs. chaos.

 

With the male channelers all but ineffective at the beginning of the series, females gained control of everything. No balance. Now that the males are back, they're gonna be forced to work together if they want to win in the Last Battle.

 

As the series has progressed, the White Tower has become obsolete; the Aes Sedai of the modern day exposed as a bunch of wannabe's that don't compare in the least to their counterparts from the AOL and are even way behind other female channelers, such as Wise Ones or Windfinders, in many, many ways. The Tower has seen its beginning, its middle and, IMO, what we're witnessing is its ending. A new version of the Hall of the Servants should rise in its stead (not the beginning but a beginning of a new era long past).

 

And finally, there can be no stability with these women trying to control and manipulate all. There's always gonna be those who resist and thus, the opportunity for the Lord of Chaos to rule will be wide open, time and time again. Unless these people learn to cooperate (I think a harsh, painful lesson that humbles the Tower will see to that), they don't stand a chance against the Shadow.

 

In fact, Nynaeve feels to me as the perfect example of the Aes Sedai of the future. She's already cooperating with male channelers, learning not to fear and to respect them, and she seems ready for the changes. She should be looked upon as an example to follow by those AS who manage to survive and help rebuild their world, post-Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Besides, if I'm Rand or her, you think I'm letting these bunch of squabbling hens take the credit away from me and my good friend? Not in a million years lol!

 

Also, the Seanchan are poised to strike the final blow to this already agonizing White...elephant. They'll strike the Tower down and that, combined with the major ass-whipping that Egwene will be receiving from Rand, should humble the girl enough to admit that she's got no choice but to adapt to the changing times and turns of the Wheel or die.

[MyKillK]

My mini-review, now that I just finished it:

 

ToM was OK. Not as good as TGS (I think Sanderson is totally right to want to reread the series before AMoL, his understanding of the WoT world was lackluster compared to TGS). My main complaints:

 

1) The uneven timelines of the various characters made following the overall plot far too difficult.

2) Multiple POVs in almost every single chapter. It's ok if used occasionally but the way Sanderson did it was distracting. What's wrong with having a continuous chapter??

3) Tower of Ghenjei section. Don't even need to elaborate on this one...should have been one of the best sections in the entire series and it came out a total dud.

4) How is it that there have been 4 entire books since the cleansing of saidin and it's still almost a total non-factor?

5) There should been significantly more POV from the Forsaken showing how they are preparing for the Last Battle.

6) Elayne gaining control of Cairhien seemed unnatural and forced. Was way too easy.

7) Far too much time spent on Perrin vs the Whitecloaks. Perrin magically knowing exactly when and where the WCs would be attacked also seemed unnatural and forced.

 

And the worst of all:

 

8) We were told the Bloodknives would last 3 days tops and they survived more like 3 weeks. Gawyn beats three at once? Please...

 

What I did like:

 

1) Aviendha at Rhuidean was amazing. By far the best part of the book.

2) Morgase finally came out of the closet. Was handled well.

3) Rodel Itulralde is awesome.

4) While some things felt hasty and forced, Brandon did a great job resolving numerous plot lines. He's almost too focused on tying up all the loose ends...

5) The book ended on a high note. The epilogue was fantastic. In order of best chapters I would say: Aviendha's 2 Rhuidean Chapters, the Epilogue, and A Making.

 

My suggestions to Brandon for AMoL are to even up the timelines (which I think will happen), not jump from POV to POV so damn often, and more POV from the Forsaken/Dark One

[haloun]

just noticed something fun, there was a thread on the warp around rand, and it just came to the forefront of my mind, that the warp might be the reason rand is also shown in T'A'R. thoughts anyone?

[Mr Ares]

Male channelers were never hunted like animals by the AS. The AS seeing men as less than them is understandable - they tend to see everyone who isn't an AS as lesser - even if not justifiable, and their being uncomfortable around male channelers is, I would say, quite justified for most of the series. After all, male channelers were going insane, and they didn't have any way to help them besides gentling. They don't need to be uncomfortable any more (although Asha'man are not exactly the most comforting thing out there), but those feelings are not going to go away over night. As for Cleansing the taint, we don't know how long it was before the AS gave up on it, but if you hit a brick wall and make no progress, then sooner or later you probably will give up.

 

According to the U.N's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, any person who is seen as less than human and subjected to cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment is being treated like an animal.

I don't see any evidence of male channelers being subjected to cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment. Not by the AS, anyway.

 

Still, the fact remains: the taint was removed, meaning that it could be done. Not my fault that the female AS of the Third Age are such an incompetent lot; that they could never go outside the box on nearly anything that they ever did, sticking instead to their square, rigid ways for generations.

Bear inmind that the tools Rand used to achieve the Cleansing - the Choedan Kal - were not available to the AS. Shadar Logoth didn't even exist until more than 1,000 years after the creation of the Taint. Yes, the modern day AS are flawed and incompetent, but I hardly think it is reasonable to blame them for not finding an answer to this problem.

[FarShainMael]

@MyKillK: I found the timelines VERY confusing as well. I'd have preferred Perrin's arc to have reached at least the point where he encounters Rand on DM to have preceded 'Apples first'. OK, that meant we'd have had to wait to meet Zen Rand and so on, but I wouldn't have minded.

 

Do we know that the timelines are aligned now, at the end of ToM?

 

OTOH, there were lots of things I liked - Zen Rand, Mjollnir, the healing of Arad Doman, Galad and Perrin sorting themselves out, Lan acknowledging himself.. lots and lots.

[Darth Krewl]

I don't see any evidence of male channelers being subjected to cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment. Not by the AS, anyway.

 

Well, that may be because unlike me, your job hasn't demanded that you read the UN's Declaration of H.R. back and forth, Mr. Ares ;) But, believe me, the way the AS treat male channelers can be deemed as a human rights violation in many fronts.

 

Though in all fairness, while I'm certain there must have been something akin to the UN's Human Rights Commission to watch and oversee that said rights were reinforced during the AoL, we're talking about a medieval-like setting for the Third Age, I know. And I've already admitted that the AS did the best they could, given their limited knowledge, resources, technology, science, etc. So, IMO, this argument's already been settled.

 

Bear inmind that the tools Rand used to achieve the Cleansing - the Choedan Kal - were not available to the AS. Shadar Logoth didn't even exist until more than 1,000 years after the creation of the Taint. Yes, the modern day AS are flawed and incompetent, but I hardly think it is reasonable to blame them for not finding an answer to this problem.

 

Agreed, they had no access to the Choedan Kal nor the knowledge needed to operate the Sa'angreals. But, I don't blame them for not finding the answer to this or any other of the many problems affecting their world, such as the Black Ajah, for instance. I blame them for entrenching themselves in their stubborn, narrow-minded ways and looking the other way, just shrugging at their incapability to solve many issues.

 

In fact, the Black Ajah is the perfect example. How long did they go on pretending that the organization didn't exist? How much did their pride cost them, by letting this clandestine group grow and sow chaos, just as their master wants? And, unlike the CK, the BA was right there, under their noses. They just refused to acknowledge them and accept the truth.

 

So, again, I don't blame the Aes Sedai for not finding answers/solutions to the many problems facing them. I blame them for not even trying.

[Mr Ares]

I don't see any evidence of male channelers being subjected to cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment. Not by the AS, anyway.

 

Well, that may be because unlike me, your job hasn't demanded that you read the UN's Declaration of H.R. back and forth, Mr Ares ;) But, believe me, the way the AS treat male channelers can be deemed as a human rights violation in many fronts.

How so?

[Kaznen]

Something I can't quite wrap my head around:

 

Where was Bela?!?!?!?

[Darth Krewl]

How so?

 

Very simple and yet complicated to put into words at the same time, Mr. Ares.

 

Any person who takes advantage of their physical, mental, financial, social superiority over others to bully, coerce and/or force hem into submission and into doing something that goes against their will, is incurring in a violation of human rights.

 

Any person who discriminates, demeans or outright offends another person based on racial, social, cultural, religious and or gender related bias or prejudice is incurring in a violation of human rights.

 

All humans are equals, regardless of their race, social position, nationality, color, religion and/or gender. All have the same rights and, well, these books are filled with examples of Aes Sedai violating the human rights of...well, basically anyone unfortunate enough to come across their paths.

 

Suffice to say that the words of Tam al'Thor to Cadsuane (not to mention what prompted said words) at the end of TGS, sum it up quite nicely.

[blazetheearth]

Something I can't quite wrap my head around:

 

Where was Bela?!?!?!?

 

She was in the Epilogue.

 

 

Didn't you know, she is uses a Mask of Mirrors to become Olver!

[blazetheearth]

 

Very simple and yet complicated to put into words at the same time, Mr. Ares.

 

Any person who takes advantage of their physical, mental, financial, social superiority over others to bully, coerce and/or force hem into submission and into doing something that goes against their will, is incurring in a violation of human rights.

 

Any person who discriminates, demeans or outright offends another person based on racial, social, cultural, religious and or gender related bias or prejudice is incurring in a violation of human rights.

 

All humans are equals, regardless of their race, social position, nationality, color, religion and/or gender. All have the same rights and, well, these books are filled with examples of Aes Sedai violating the human rights of...well, basically anyone unfortunate enough to come across their paths.

 

Suffice to say that the words of Tam al'Thor to Cadsuane (not to mention what prompted said words) at the end of TGS, sum it up quite nicely.

 

Very Well Said!!!

[Kahlika]

How so?

 

Very simple and yet complicated to put into words at the same time, Mr. Ares.

 

Any person who takes advantage of their physical, mental, financial, social superiority over others to bully, coerce and/or force hem into submission and into doing something that goes against their will, is incurring in a violation of human rights.

 

Any person who discriminates, demeans or outright offends another person based on racial, social, cultural, religious and or gender related bias or prejudice is incurring in a violation of human rights.

 

All humans are equals, regardless of their race, social position, nationality, color, religion and/or gender. All have the same rights and, well, these books are filled with examples of Aes Sedai violating the human rights of...well, basically anyone unfortunate enough to come across their paths.

 

Suffice to say that the words of Tam al'Thor to Cadsuane (not to mention what prompted said words) at the end of TGS, sum it up quite nicely.

 

So everyone else in the world doesn't have the right to not be murdered by insane people then?

 

Preamble

 

[T]he advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear.

 

Article 3

 

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

 

That complicates things doesn't it. People have the right to not be murdered by insane people and to not live in fear of them. But the insane people have rights too. How to balance those competing interests...

 

Thankfully there's a solution!

 

Article 29.

 

(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.

 

Rights can be infringed to protect other people's rights and freedoms and the general welfare of society if it's done legally. Men were taken to the Tower under Tower Law, and there they were severed according to that law after a trial to prevent the greater infringement of everyone else's and society in general's rights that would have occured had something not been done. I'd say that falls comfortably under Article 29.

 

Of course applying existing legislation to a fantasy setting is utterly pointless. Go through the entire Charter and tell me who or what in Randland hasn't at some point violated an Article. It's hardly suprising given that it's an entirely different world and set of circumstanes.

[Darth Krewl]

So everyone else in the world doesn't have the right to not be murdered by insane people then?

 

Preamble

 

[T]he advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear.

 

Article 3

 

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

 

That complicates things doesn't it. People have the right to not be murdered by insane people and to not live in fear of them. But the insane people have rights too. How to balance those competing interests...

 

Thankfully there's a solution!

Article 29.

 

(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.

 

Rights can be infringed to protect other people's rights and freedoms and the general welfare of society if it's done legally. Men were taken to the Tower under Tower Law, and there they were severed according to that law after a trial to prevent the greater infringement of everyone else's and society in general's rights that would have occured had something not been done. I'd say that falls comfortable under Article 29.

 

Of course applying existing legislation to a fantasy setting is utterly pointless. Go through the entire Charter and tell me who or what in Randland hasn't at some point violated an Article. It's hardly suprising given that it's an entirely different world and set of circumstanes.

 

Of course. This is fantasy we're talking about and, like I said before, even if such matters applied to the WoT universe, that, I believe, would've been during the much more civilized and advanced Age of Legends. Even in the real world, the UN has been standing for a little over a half a century and to this day and age, not everyone is aware of their fundamental rights and they're still not observed equally all over the world, sadly enough. So, applying these principles and rights to a medieval-setting such as the Third Age is pointless, like you wisely put it.

 

My point was only to illustrate that the attitude of the White Tower towards male channelers, now that the taint has been cleansed, is completely wrong. Egwene's belief to be above all (including the Dragon Reborn) because of her station is, at this point in the story, ridiculous and only hinders the Light much more than it helps.

 

I understand how old habits die hard and how Aes Sedai, queens of rigid squareness supreme, would have a really hard time letting go of old prejudice. But for the sake of all, they must overcome said prejudice, whether they like it or not, because right now, male and female channelers are once again, equals and all needed for the Last Battle.

[dwn]

My point was only to illustrate that the attitude of the White Tower towards male channelers, now that the taint has been cleansed, is completely wrong. Egwene's belief to be above all (including the Dragon Reborn) because of her station is, at this point in the story, ridiculous and only hinders the Light much more than it helps.

 

I understand how old habits die hard and how Aes Sedai, queens of rigid squareness supreme, would have a really hard time letting go of old prejudice. But for the sake of all, they must overcome said prejudice, whether they like it or not, because right now, male and female channelers are once again, equals and all needed for the Last Battle.

 

A 3000+ year fear of men channelling will take years, if not generations, to fade. Many Aes Sedai have already jumped on the chance to work with men, even some among the Red Ajah and several in the upper echelons of the Aes Sedai. More will follow suit, Egwene included, after they've had time to actually work with the Asha'man.

 

-- dwn

[Kahlika]

So everyone else in the world doesn't have the right to not be murdered by insane people then?

 

Preamble

 

[T]he advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear.

 

Article 3

 

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

 

That complicates things doesn't it. People have the right to not be murdered by insane people and to not live in fear of them. But the insane people have rights too. How to balance those competing interests...

 

Thankfully there's a solution!

Article 29.

 

(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.

 

Rights can be infringed to protect other people's rights and freedoms and the general welfare of society if it's done legally. Men were taken to the Tower under Tower Law, and there they were severed according to that law after a trial to prevent the greater infringement of everyone else's and society in general's rights that would have occured had something not been done. I'd say that falls comfortable under Article 29.

 

Of course applying existing legislation to a fantasy setting is utterly pointless. Go through the entire Charter and tell me who or what in Randland hasn't at some point violated an Article. It's hardly suprising given that it's an entirely different world and set of circumstanes.

 

Of course. This is fantasy we're talking about and, like I said before, even if such matters applied to the WoT universe, that, I believe, would've been during the much more civilized and advanced Age of Legends. Even in the real world, the UN has been standing for a little over a half a century and to this day and age, not everyone is aware of their fundamental rights and they're still not observed equally all over the world, sadly enough. So, applying these principles and rights to a medieval-setting such as the Third Age is pointless, like you wisely put it.

 

My point was only to illustrate that the attitude of the White Tower towards male channelers, now that the taint has been cleansed, is completely wrong. Egwene's belief to be above all (including the Dragon Reborn) because of her station is, at this point in the story, ridiculous and only hinders the Light much more than it helps.

 

I understand how old habits die hard and how Aes Sedai, queens of rigid squareness supreme, would have a really hard time letting go of old prejudice. But for the sake of all, they must overcome said prejudice, whether they like it or not, because right now, male and female channelers are once again, equals and all needed for the Last Battle.

 

I don't think anyone is going to argue that people in general need to overcome their attitudes now that the circumstances have changed.

 

But at the same time keep in mind that the WT itself only recieved a report about and confirming the cleansing in Chapter 33 of ToM (from Nynaeve). It's still really new news to them.

 

It was completely reasonable to be concerned about men who can channel in the society they lived in pre cleansing. And even then despite their concerns they did actually attempt to work with the BT, sending sisters there to attempt an alliance through bonding. They aren't all going to change their attitudes overnight, ingrained beliefs take time to get rid of, but the evidence is that they are moving in the right direction.

 

Are you just unhappy that it doesn't seem to be happening quickly? I think you should keep in mind that in the timelines it wasn't that long ago that the source was cleansed, and they literally only just confirmed it. Yes it seems like much longer, as readers we've waited years, but it actually isn't all that long in Randland and general signs are positive.

[Darth Krewl]

A 3000+ year fear of men channelling will take years, if not generations, to fade. Many Aes Sedai have already jumped on the chance to work with men, even some among the Red Ajah and several in the upper echelons of the Aes Sedai. More will follow suit, Egwene included, after they've had time to actually work with the Asha'man.

 

-- dwn

 

Which is precisely the reason why I said that old habits die hard.

 

There's that which you mention and also the Aiel Wise Ones that are working actively with the Asha'man that are with Rand and Perrin, so progress is being made in this sense and in many fronts, as well.

 

Question is, how bad does Egwene really want to work with the Asha'man? Because, it would seem clear to me that, during her little tea party with the Wise Ones and Windfinders, she wasn't even close to mentioning the slightest possibility of working together with men. And, IMO, this is vital not only to success in the Last Battle, but for the future sake of all the Randlands. Now, if somebody could get the Seanchan to get on board...but that's another story altogether.

 

I don't think anyone is going to argue that people in general need to overcome their attitudes now that the circumstances have changed.

 

Absolutely! I've been yelling this at the characters in the pages of my copies for the past 3 or 4 books lol!

 

But at the same time keep in mind that the WT itself only recieved a report about and confirming the cleansing in Chapter 33 of ToM (from Nynaeve). It's still really new news to them.

 

Unfortunately, this is true. There had been rumors but, it wasn't until after Nynaeve took the oaths (hence, was unable to lie) that the sisters finally came to know this shocking development. Still, I didn't see them doing anything related to this, like making plans for future alliances with male channelers or anything. That's good in the sense that, the last thing you want right now is for them to contact Taim, of course, but I do believe they should've done something along those lines.

 

It was completely reasonable to be concerned about men who can channel in the society they lived in pre cleansing. And even then despite their concerns they did actually attempt to work with the BT, sending sisters there to attempt an alliance through bonding. They aren't all going to change their attitudes overnight, ingrained beliefs take time to get rid of, but the evidence is that they are moving in the right direction.

 

Oh, of course! Personally, I would've been as terrified of male channelers as any other non-channeling male in the Randland. But still, I can't help but ask myself if something else couldn't be done...till the cleansing came. Meaning that something was done and with the help of a sister in Nynaeve.

 

Are you just unhappy that it doesn't seem to be happening quickly? I think you should keep in mind that in the timelines it wasn't that long ago that the source was cleansed, and they literally only just confirmed it. Yes it seems like much longer, as readers we've waited years, but it actually isn't all that long in Randland and general signs are positive.

 

That's a fair question. Truth be told, with Traveling available to nearly all channelers now, I believe news should spread much faster. I mean, sometimes I get the impression that the communication in a series such as ASoIaF is much better and they have to rely on ravens to send messages lol! But, I do understand that it'll take a while for the idea to sink in.

 

My problem lies on the fact that, you don't have to like or agree with something/someone in order to respect it. And IMO, most Aes Sedai (not all of course) feel themselves head and shoulders above their male counterparts...well, above anyone else, really lol! Perfect examples of this, IMO, are Cadsuane "boy al'Thor" Sedai and Egwene and their treatment of Rand. I see that as a microcosm of how Aes Sedai think themselves so high and mighty that they're not even willing to show respect for any male channeler. And that's all you can ask for.

 

You don't have to agree or even like a person in order to respect them and give them the place they deserve. 'cause IMO, neither sex is above the other. They're equals and they should be seeing each other as such. Even when the males were going mad 'cause of the taint, that was no excuse not to show them compassion, especially for women that are supposed to be "servants of all". Not like them, not befriend them, heck certainly not fall in love w/a crazy guy (though you never know lol) but just treat them with the respect that they demand for themselves. That's all.

[daddacool]

Hi there, new user who's just read the whole 62 page thread, so if some of what I say references 30 odd pages back, sorry, it's like yesterday to me :)

 

The Avi sequence had me interested, perhaps I'm hanging too much on a couple of sentences but:

 

This was not like the events she had seen when passing into the rings during her first visit to Rhuidean. Those had been possibilities. This day's visions seemed more real. She felt almost certain that what she had experienced was not simply one of many possibilities. What she had seen would occur

 

Makes it sound like this isn't a prophecy. I hope like heck it wont come true because it's a depressing outcome.

 

I find it odd how powerful the damane are perceived as, on the one hand we have the Seanchan sweeping all before them but on the other even Bornhold manages to kill one with archers. A few good Two Rivers long bowmen should be able to put paid to the Seanchan. And I mean that as only half a joke. It's impossible to postulate how channelers were organised in the the lands the Seanchan conquered but things over this side of the ocean are a bit different, Avi's trip through the columns aside. It's worth noting that in TGH, one of the flicker futures Rand sees whilst shifting the portal stone to Toman's Head shows the Seanchan conquering the land but failing to hold the hoards of Trollocs back and being utterly defeated. Frankly all Eqwene has to do is convince everyone to swear on the Oath Rod, regardless of whether they're kin, knitting circle or whatever and then the Seanchan will have an extremely limited pool to replace a dead demane from.

 

I thought the ToG was really well paced. I don't understand how people wanted it to run for half the book, or think TG will take chapters and chapters and chapters. The actual Last Battle itself isn't going to be more than 50 odd pages is it? How? It's not the best comparison but the whole actual War from first engagement to the hanging of a Raver in The Illearth War was only 11,000 words, and Donaldson is notoriously verbose. There is only so much you can describe in actual pitched battle- look at the battle with the Nights Watch against the Wildlings in ASOIAF, brilliant but not reams of text. Or the various battles on The Stone of Farewell/To Green Angel Tower for that matter.

 

It looks like everyones decided the red clothed Aiel like people at the end aren't actually Aiel but I'd add it wouldn't make sense if they were the male Aiel channellers if they didn't kill with the OP.

 

Anyway I'll shut up now, sorry for the brain dump :)

[blazetheearth]

I wanted to mention something about "Apples First", most people seem to put the apple trees blooming and fruit growing down to Rand's ta'veren-ness and that is certainly one possibility, but we are not told (for certain or by any character) that this is the reason. Later on in Bandar Eben, Rand tells us that the effects on the food there is his ta'veren-ness with, "Not ridiculous, simply implausible ." As opposed to Almen Bunt's assertion "What was happening? Apple trees didn't blossom twice. Was he going mad?" Now to be fair his first thought was, "That was plain ridiculous." Followed by rubbing his eye because he could believe the process he was seeing take place and that paragraph goes on to describe the process:

 

That was plain ridiculous. He rubbed his eyes, but that didn't dispel the image. They were blooming, all of them, white flowers breaking out between the leaves. The flies buzzed into the air and zipped away on the wind. the dark bits of apple on the ground melted away, like wax before a flame. In seconds there was nothing left of them, not even juice. The ground had absorbed them.

 

then our viewpoint is turned from the process while he and Rand talk, then Rand tells him to collect the apples. Now we get to see what the end result of the process was as Almen turns back to the trees:

 

The blossoms he'd seen earlier had fallen free, and blanketed the ground in white, like snow.

Those apples seemed to shine. Not just dozens of them on each ripe tree, but hundreds. More than a tree should hold, each one perfectly ripe.

 

Compare this to the other things that we have seen of Rand's ta'veren-ness. When food rotted around him it was immediate, the tea souring all through tGS for example. There would be a brand new pot, freshly made, and would be sour in seconds.The process of the apples growing was not instant but very much accelerated.

 

And now I want to quote Elaida from TFoH during the Prologue, her and Alviarin and some Sitters are in her study and while she is thinking about how everyone is ignoring her, she turns to contemplate a rose blossom and thinks:

 

There had been no rain since she was raised, but fine blossoms were always available with the Power.

 

So, to summarize based on these things mostly, IMO Rand actually used a weave on the orchard, possibly even subconsciously, or without thinking about it. But consciously or not, I think this was a result of the OP as opposed to ta'veren-ness.

 

Feel free to tear this apart.

 

 

 

edited for punctuation

[daddacool]

Couldn't you see it in another way: Rand is synonymous with the land; his hurts are reflected in the hurt that the world is taking. By successfully integrating himself with LTT (is it Semhirage that says even in the AoL this was very seldom achieved?), he now has the taint held back (the white light Ny sees in his head holding the black of the madness/taint at bay), so does it stand to reason that the DO taint on the world is lessened round him?

 

Just an off the top of my head thought :)