Discuss The Full Book

[ColeOfCentauri]

Just finished my first go-through on the audio book. I am very, very disturbed by both the direction the story is taking with the whole 'messiah' crap as well as the feeling I get from a looming doom even if the Light side wins.

 

My instincts are telling me that no matter how this story ends, the end result will be proof to humanity's enate idiocy, selfishness and destructive, powerlusting nature. Very realistic, of course, but not what I expect to find in a 'fantasy' series. That's why I read fantasy, to get away from that particular realism.

 

I'm quite thoroughly worried...

 

 

there's no need to worry. the shadow is a laughing stock. After 13 books, the closest the shadow has come to killing a major light character was when rahvin blasted mat and aviendha and lo and behold they were brought back.

 

At this rate Tarmon gaidon will end up with a whimper.

Keep in mind that Lord of the Rings was very dire at the end of Book Five (ROTK Book 1) before something called the eucatastrophe, where suddenly the enemy is wiped out, and the good guys, though they can't go back to how it was before the strife began, are able to rebuild in peace and celebration. I anticipate such an event. Who knows? Maybe Nynaeve will figure out how to heal death if/when Rand dies.

[Jur_Grady]

Just finished my first go-through on the audio book. I am very, very disturbed by both the direction the story is taking with the whole 'messiah' crap as well as the feeling I get from a looming doom even if the Light side wins.

 

My instincts are telling me that no matter how this story ends, the end result will be proof to humanity's enate idiocy, selfishness and destructive, powerlusting nature. Very realistic, of course, but not what I expect to find in a 'fantasy' series. That's why I read fantasy, to get away from that particular realism.

 

I'm quite thoroughly worried...

 

 

there's no need to worry. the shadow is a laughing stock. After 13 books, the closest the shadow has come to killing a major light character was when rahvin blasted mat and aviendha and lo and behold they were brought back.

 

At this rate Tarmon gaidon will end up with a whimper.

Keep in mind that Lord of the Rings was very dire at the end of Book Five (ROTK Book 1) before something called the eucatastrophe, where suddenly the enemy is wiped out, and the good guys, though they can't go back to how it was before the strife began, are able to rebuild in peace and celebration. I anticipate such an event. Who knows? Maybe Nynaeve will figure out how to heal death if/when Rand dies.

 

She won't figure out how to heal death but the dragon will die aka Lewis Therin. Rand will live on after she heals the madness. That is my theory anyway. I believe she will learn to heal possibly his hand and matt's eye and most things short of death but not death. The only course i could see her learning to heal death is if Lan is killed that would cause her to break and maybe touch the true source and retrieve his soul and heal him but that creates so many dire and dark possiblities that i doubt that will happen.

[Tai'daishar]

Two thoughts I haven't seen specifically discussed yet, but I may have just missed them:

 

1. Do we have any good clues about Avi's timeline? B/c after some thought, I think the future see saw in the pillars was shown to her before Rand has his epiphany on Dragonmount. So maybe that future would have happened if Rand won then, but may turn out differently now that he has changed.

 

2. It doesn't seem to fit that Taim has been replaced by one of the forsaken, but what if he's become a new Forsaken? Why couldn't the DO make him a new Forsaken, since there seems to be a shortage now that Rand and company are killing them off?

[Jur_Grady]

Two thoughts I haven't seen specifically discussed yet, but I may have just missed them:

 

1. Do we have any good clues about Avi's timeline? B/c after some thought, I think the future see saw in the pillars was shown to her before Rand has his epiphany on Dragonmount. So maybe that future would have happened if Rand won then, but may turn out differently now that he has changed.

 

2. It doesn't seem to fit that Taim has been replaced by one of the forsaken, but what if he's become a new Forsaken? Why couldn't the DO make him a new Forsaken, since there seems to be a shortage now that Rand and company are killing them off?

 

1. Didn't think about the timeline issue with Aviendha but good point not sure if it correlates or whether its relative to Rands epipheny sp? but i think it matters to whether or not she is at the meeting. But yes i believe she stepped through before his revelation. Better question is who was the woman who talked to her and did she manipulate what aviendha saw for better or worse. i think who the woman she talked to would answer many questions.

 

2. I said in my first comment that taim being replaced by forsaken is very likely if it happened when he escaped the AS. But I am more curious as to who the talented man with gateways at the black towers is.

[TheDecline01]

I will be honest, I didn't go through the 43 pages of this thread, but is anyone feeling the same as me, a bit... disappointed?

 

Let me explain. The book is still rated A in my opinion, or close enough, but... ok, I knew there wouldn't be climaxes as high as The gathering Storm had, but it definitely misses one defining moment (ok, Moiraine's back, but she barely spoke). But that's not what's bothering me most.

 

What's the most disturbing to me, is the insanely good turn of events that all of our taveren go through. I mean, bloody ashes, Rand/Lew Therin's as good as a savior now, wise, strong and fair. Perrin didn't face any major issue (ok, Hopper died, but hey, he's a WOLF) and trounces Graendal's plan. And Mat, yeah, the eye and all, but he goes out the Tower of Genghei still awesomely awesome. Noal/Jain dies (or is at least supposed to) but... minor character again. For all that we can read from such a somber book, it looks good as good peaches. There is not any kind of desperation to me. I may have read a bit to fast due to high level of excitement, I'll go through it again slower later, but... yeah, the effect of the Dark One on the world are more and more visible, but the Light side has pretty much succeed in everything it was involved.

 

That misses evil, by a far shot.

[1eejit]

Light isn't doing as well as you seem to think.

 

Most of the Black Tower seems to have been turned to the Dark. That's MAJOR. Demandred, the Dark's greatest general has been working unopposed and undiscovered since he escaped. Caemlyn could easily fall in the near future. The Seanchan are still determined to attack the White Tower and believe that they have to force Rand to submit to them. As it stands the big chunk of Randland they control may not participate in a helpful way in the Last Battle.

 

I count failures there for Matt and Rand. Perrin has succeeded though, I'll give you that.

[TheDecline01]

Yeah, I agree I might just be obscuring all of the wins for the shadow. Maybe because they're less written about, so it's biased. Or do I want Towers of Midnight to be too good-sided?

 

Anyway, you have a point, clearly. I wrote too fast.

[DPT24]

Most of the Chosen suck. But, that doesn't mean the light's winning easily. Moridin seems to have a "master plan" and Demedred is about to strike. Plus, the Borderlands are being overwhelemed and Caylmelen is being destroyed. Not to mention, the Seanchan were originally sent off by Moridin 1000 years ago, and it's believe he messed with their prophocey. So the Chosen are pathetic (outside Moridin/Demerdred) but it doesn't matter, they've got the Black Tower, they've got the shadowspawn, they've got dreadlords, and the last battle still should be a close thing

[TheDecline01]

Well, I realize that the more I talk about this damn book, the more I see how many great moments it has. Well, you may finally disregard my initial post. At least, not until I reread the thing.

[KyleLitke]

Hello,

 

Just finished ToM, wow what a fantastic book !!!

 

The first 400 pages a little slow but the last part was in my mind the best part so far in the series.

 

But I must confess, I (who had followed the wheel of time since 1993 and read the series at least 10 times) still do not know that the big unnoticed thing was.

 

Was it Perrins discoveries of the wolfdream or Mats spear ?

 

I really dont know.

 

Can someone help me ?

 

Ronneby

 

No clue. A lot of people here think it's the spear, but when I reread what Brandon supposedly said, it doesn't make any sense to me. It would mean Brandon thinks Mat might have been in Rhuidean in Book 6, and that seems bizarre to me. And to me, the spear doesn't sound like it fits what Brandon said.

[Danvighar]

Seriously, I think Brandon was not talking about the actual "Mat goes into the fox doorway and gets his ashanderai", but that "somewhere in books 4-6" is when we the reader see the inscription on it, and we promptly miss the deeper implications of "what was asked is given".

[balefireruinssteaks]

I know we feel like anything "blacksmith" equals Perrin, but in the Dark Prophecy why would he be referred to as the "Fallen" Blacksmith?

 

Fallen how?

[tlongman]

I know we feel like anything "blacksmith" equals Perrin, but in the Dark Prophecy why would he be referred to as the "Fallen" Blacksmith?

 

Fallen how?

 

I have no idea, but didn't Slayer at one point call Perrin "Fallen Blacksmith" when they were fighting or am I just remembering things?

[Sentinel78]

Graendal referred to him as Fallen Blacksmith, after reading the Shadow Prophecy; not Slayer.

[Sanngrior]

This is my first time posting on here. I loved reading the spoilers and I appreciate everyone who took the time to post them up.

 

I would like to add my two cents about Olver. Reading his POV, I never got the impression that he was psycho, or twisted, or anything like that. After reading his POV, I was reminded of another book that is very good and highly enjoyable. I would like to quote that now.

 

"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die." -Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

 

That is Olver in 20 years.

[Darth Krewl]

2. Who were the red-veiled "Aiel" at the epilogue?

 

Simple, they're not Aiel. Their Sharamen. Their sharpened teeth are clearly mentioned in The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time. There is an entire, albeit brief, section dedicated to Shara, which IMO, wouldn't be there just as a filler. RJ meant to have Shara remain shrouded behind a veil of mystery, until the time was right to bring it to good use. This is it. The red-veiled attackers are Sharamen, plain and simple.

 

3. Who's Demandred?

 

The leader of the Sharamen. That's why his "rule has been secure" for so long. He will be revealed as the general behind the red-veiled warriors, probably in the prologue or opening chapters of AMOL. Count on it.

 

It is likely, just to throw something out there, Graendel up until LoC had contacts there, and she doesn't know what Demandred was up to.

Sammael thought Demandred was up to something in the South. Land of Madmen?

 

On another topic, Moridin in TPOD was a bit freaked out that Avi could unravel Webs for Gateways. Is the Bore a Gateway?

 

Land of the Madmen? Could be, yup. I would normally think male channelers gone mad would be extremely unpredictable and difficult to control but, why haven't they broken the world completely, since they've been in that southern continent for a long time? Also, let's not forget that Ishamael healed Lews Therin with the True Power. The madmen could've been healed the same way and turned through the 13x13 trick. Don't find it very likely but it's a possibility, yeah. Wouldn't trust Sammael's assumptions, though...

 

As for your theory on the Bore, to my understanding it is a gateway. Not one, but several in fact. Hence the "focal points" where the seven Cuendillar seals had to be placed by LTT and the 100 Companions. IMO, RJ was talking about metaphysics concerning the earth's electromagnetic field. In real life, it has been theorized that certain focal points (i.e. the Bermuda Triangle) can be portals or gateways into space or to different worlds/dimensions, just like the many that exist in TWoT (traveling, skimming, the ways, portal stones, etc.).

 

I'm sold on the theory that Rand wants to kill the Dark One and not reseal him (like I've said, otherwise the name "Last" Battle wouldn't make much sense. For the Light, at least, if the DO could still be up and about, trying to break free in future ages) but I'm definitely convinced that Aviendha's sophisticated and advanced weaves (even Moridin admits that they were far too advanced for people of his own age, let alone those Third Age "ignorants" and "primitives") will play a huge role at some point.

[Terhan]

Cyndane's Plight

 

I gather that we are supposed to infer from this scene in the epilogue that Mierin is now in the unfortunate position of being pwned by the Dark Lord. However, there are some things that make me want to question this conclusion.

 

..."He comes! The shadow in every man's mind, the murderer of truth. No!" --(Apparently Cyndane/Lanfear/Mierin)

 

This could certainly refer to the Dark One, but does it? We've never heard these specific phrases in reference to the Dark One, and wouldn't Mierin, in a state of terror and despair, revert to the most familiar of titles and manners of speaking?

 

..."The shadow in every man's mind,"

 

This puts me in the mind of Mordeth and the way of his corruption in Aridhol.

 

..."The murderer of truth."

 

This sounds like a way of describing that evil. Mordeth was against the shadow, but twisted himself and his city into something just as vile. Also kind of sounds like the Betrayer of Hope as well.

 

We haven't seen the setting in which the dream takes place before. It is not, for instance, similar to any of the darker places we've seen the three Ta'veren pulled to in dreams and such. And what about Cyndane? She wasn't in trouble the last time we saw her, and we have heard nothing of her lately until this scene in the epilogue. We do know that Fain is on his way towards Shayol Ghul and probably has more than one crazy plan up his sleeve. What if he has her and is the one delivering the pwnage. I think he is quite capable of taking down a Cyndane at this point.

 

..."He has me. He flays my soul anew each eve."

 

If she were trapped in Dark Lord vertigo-painland-voidplace then would she be able to distinguish this pattern and ascribe it to happen at the eve of each day? Or is this just figurative dream-talk meant to convey that it is done over and over again? But she goes on to say that he grinds her bones and snaps them like twigs (Mashadar, anyone?), only to heal her just enough to live. Would it happen this way if she were in the grips of the Dark One? Wouldn't it be more of a constant, never-ending torment? This is what we have seen glimpses of before.

 

Of course, if Shaidar Haran is the one who has her, then this could all make sense, but this would imply that she had a major screwup since we last heard of her. Moridin specifically orders her not to kill Rand back in KoD. An infraction on this order could certainly use up her last chance, but I would think we would at least see a couple of clues pointing to that mistake somewhere if this were the case.

 

So, who has her and why? How did her cries reach Rand's own warded dream? What is the significance of this at this late juncture? Moridin? Shaidar? Fain? Bela?

[Sharaman]

Cyndi could be pulling a fast one?

She knows that LTT-Rand is a sucker for damsels in distress.

She's capable of breaking into his dreams or at least, she claimed to be.

Moridin holds her mind-trap - if Fain captured her, Moridin could switch her off.

Moridin himself is capable of breaking into dreams and he does have a connect with Rand.

Creating a weeping howling Cyndane in a dream is no big deal.

[masaru]

2. Who were the red-veiled "Aiel" at the epilogue?

 

Simple, they're not Aiel. Their Sharamen. Their sharpened teeth are clearly mentioned in The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time. There is an entire, albeit brief, section dedicated to Shara, which IMO, wouldn't be there just as a filler. RJ meant to have Shara remain shrouded behind a veil of mystery, until the time was right to bring it to good use. This is it. The red-veiled attackers are Sharamen, plain and simple.

 

3. Who's Demandred?

 

The leader of the Sharamen. That's why his "rule has been secure" for so long. He will be revealed as the general behind the red-veiled warriors, probably in the prologue or opening chapters of AMOL. Count on it.

 

So, I desperately want this to be true because I've been intrigued by how Shara fits into all this ever since they were mentioned. However... I've just checked back through all mentions of Shara in The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time and did not find any mention of sharpened teeth. (For good measure I also checked the Land of Madmen entries with no luck either). Either there's been an update of this book since I bought it or you might be remembering their entry incorrectly.

 

There is, though, a mention that Sharamen always wear cloaks and veils when doing business in ports with foreigners.

 

--

 

The Rand-Moridin-Merge theory seems a bit strange and unsupported to me. I fully understand they are becoming more and more linked but don't you think it's basically because the Dragon will be the champion of Light and Moridin will be the champion of Dark in the Last Battle? Seems that their power sources are intrinsically linked, being two halves of existence (no dark without light, no light without dark, etc). All of the viewings and visions of Rand merging with someone point more towards his Dragon/Lews Therin Integration, not some sort of Moridin merging.

[darko]

Just some random thoughts after finishing the book:

 

Does anyone else think Nynaeve will "saidar" Rand a new hand? I forget what chapter gave me that impression - I think it was Mins viewings and I'm sure this has already been discussed - something about obsidian.

 

And I laughed out loud when Egwene fooled the Hall into doing what she wanted - sounding like she was "back into a corner" and made Romanda look like a fool, haha. Galads first time noticing Berelain was funny too even though I expected it.

 

I knew Danelle was Mesaana! I re-read Truth of a Viewing after too

 

I expected more out of Verins letter. I mean it's still a heart-stopping moment but it just doesn't feel right after her demands to Mat in tGS.

 

Wish there was more with Moiraine but can't have it all. Disappointed with the lack of Demandred, but I'm liking the "red-veiled/sharp teethed Aiel=Sharamen" theory. Although I don't know how it's plausible at this point.

 

Disliked the ending with Lanfear because it seemed kind of tacked on and I don't see how it's relevant right now.

 

I'm also wondering if balefire is the only way to get rid of a FS for good, what about Aginor/Osan'gar? Will the DO bring him back? Elza killed him with fire if i remember correctly.

 

And is it just me or do the female FS seem alot more dangerous/scarier than the males? Sure Sammael, Rahvin, etc were powerful but they were so predictable and stupid. Semirhage was downright terrifying, and Graendal is so cunning and brilliant. I was kinda disappointed Semi met her end in the last book only because she could have been used in the book during the last battle.

 

ToG was so intense especially the realization that Mat omitted the Aelfinn. Thoms singing intermingled with Mats thinking was just very well written.

 

And I'm glad we haven't seen the last of "Suffa". She deserves everything she gets! I also can't wait to see how the BA having the foxhead copy plays out. Can't wait for Mellar to get his too, filthy piece of dog****. (sorry lol I just really hate him).

 

Should have been more from Fain but I'm not complaining!

 

Some scenes were too slow and painful to read through but I still couldn't put the book down! I'm notorious for sneaking a peek in the last chapters of a book and I did it only once this time! I caught a glimpse of Verins letter but I'm glad I showed some restraint this time and waited it out.

 

I didn't like how Graendal being Asmos killer was just tacked onto the glossary, I saw it by accident. At least it has no relevance into the rest of the series.

 

And man Avi seeing the future of the Aiel - I actually felt despair and kept thinking that can't be it! Wow at the range of emotions this book makes you feel, Rand weeping embracing his father, I'm cynical but I still got a little choked up from that :P

 

Can't wait for the final book! Although it's also sad because you know the series is ending :(

[The Desert Pea]

I didn't like how Graendal being Asmos killer was just tacked onto the glossary, I saw it by accident. At least it has no relevance into the rest of the series.

 

It wasn't just tacked on in the glossary. It was practically thrown into your face with bright lights and sirens in both Chapter 5 and the Epilogue.

[drizzt_scimitar]

Okay, first off, loved the book. Mainly I'm posting to say that my first thought about the red-veiled aiel was that they were all of the aiel male channelers. I can't remember which book, but it's stated that male aiel who can channel are sent into the blight to "fight the dark one"? What if, instead, they get captured and turned (maybe by 13x13) and are now dreadlords?

 

Although, the idea that they are sharamen and that's where Demandred has been the whole time is appealing as well.

[darko]

I didn't like how Graendal being Asmos killer was just tacked onto the glossary, I saw it by accident. At least it has no relevance into the rest of the series.

 

It wasn't just tacked on in the glossary. It was practically thrown into your face with bright lights and sirens in both Chapter 5 and the Epilogue.

 

I know, but I saw it before Graendals meeting with Moridin - I was just disappointed I saw it in the glossary before I got to the part where it was confirmed in the book.

[nohit]

I've enjoyed Brandon's books because all the characters who had become painful to read (most of them, really) have now become likable.

 

Now that we're in love again with all these characters, how many will die in the final book?

[The Desert Pea]

Woah hold it just saw something in Chapter 49

 

The other four looked at her. She was of lineage of the Dragon, one of the last living. The other three lines had been killed off.

 

Emphasis mine. Maybe I'm interpreting this wrong, but there should only be three lines: Children birthed by Avi, children birthed by Elayne, and children birthed by Min. Or is this referring to the lineage coming from Avi's quadruplets, ignoring those from Elayne and Min? And if not, who is this fourth bloodline coming from?