Discuss The Full Book

[sleepinghour]

I dunno, a lot of things about Nynavene from both this book and the last book did seem kinda rushed, almost to the point of being MarySue-ish or just thrown in as a 'by the way'.

Nyn: "O hai, I just healed your madness."

Ashaman: "lol, kthxbai."

 

I think it was partly to set Nynaeve up as a counterpart to Graendal.

 

"Graendal could explain it better than I. Madness was her specialty."

--Semirhage, KoD

 

Nynaeve also undid Compulsion -- Graendal's other area of expertise -- on Graendal's servant in TGS. That was the first time she performed any "brain surgery," so in a way it was Graendal that got Nyn started on that and madness as well. Nynaeve thinks of the madness as the Dark One's own Compulsion in ToM.

[madpoet]

So I come out of hiding about once a year to post about the new book... starting to feel like a pattern. Certainly better than waiting 4-5 years between posts ;)

 

Anyway, I finished it up today. I don't know what to feel. Here's my opinion, humble or not. I think BS had too much material for 2 books, but not really enough for 3. So he decided to add a bunch of fluff to it. Look, it's not the first time it's happened. RJ himself was known to spend way too much time on women's clothing for example. But if you strip out so much of the mindless stuff and shift some action like the Tower to the last book this and TGS could have easily been combined. I feel like we got sold a bill of goods on the whole "Oh, there's just too much for two books" line. All the Elayne to Carhein stuff was irrelevant. The Perrin "trial" was just plain dumb. Some of the wolf stuff could have been cut down. I actually got more than a little tired of Morgase.

 

I thought he built up to the scene in the Tower all book and then it really wasn't that great. If you want to write in great detail about stuff, THAT should have been the obvious choice. We've only waited what, 10 books for it? The losing the eye... really? That's it? Wow. Jain's death with absolutely zero explanations about all the really odd stuff going on with him. Oh look, Moiraine's back and she and Thom had this whole love affair that apparently we all missed. Aviendha was again very poorly written, almost an afterthought. For that matter when have the Aiel mattered at all in the last 2 books? BS just can't find their voice well. I didn't mind Gawyn and Egwene. The whole dreamspike thing was an odd addition, and I really didn't like it. Obvious of course that Taim has his own. People getting "replaced" is bizzarre, not sure why we needed that. I thought Lan's ride was funny, Matt's killing the golem was a neat trick, and what really happened with Rand and the Balefire incident somewhat amusing.

 

What I absolutely hated was the new Rand Jesus we've been handed. I'm sorry... it's just ridiculous. I expected him to start wearing white and saying "All we are is dust in the wind." *sigh*

[jwillis7]

so i started but i cant search all 30 pages but does anyone think that asha'man's kid, the one with perin, is Gaidal Cain. I know we look every where for Gaidal, BUT he is born again and he is very ugly and i dont see why say that baby is so ugly if not a clue

[Barid Bel Medar]

so i started but i cant search all 30 pages but does anyone think that asha'man's kid, the one with perin, is Gaidal Cain. I know we look every where for Gaidal, BUT he is born again and he is very ugly and i dont see why say that baby is so ugly if not a clue

 

mmmm, that is interesting. It could be. I have no idea. Do we know how old the kid is? He would have to be less than a year old to be Gaidal Cain

[Sharaman]

so i started but i cant search all 30 pages but does anyone think that asha'man's kid, the one with perin, is Gaidal Cain. I know we look every where for Gaidal, BUT he is born again and he is very ugly and i dont see why say that baby is so ugly if not a clue

No - Grady's boy is too old.

[jwillis7]

well stupid ugly children just need to go away

[Darth Krewl]

I agree. The aes sedai order is fundamentally flawed because of their strength ranking and things. Suian demonstrates this very well. the head of the body is corrupted therefor the rest of the body is. but we have seen some aes sedai that aren't completely messed up, Elayne nyneave, and some of the weaker ones in rands entourage.

 

The seanchan i agree must change before they can successfully rule. slavery is the bane of the nations. it just makes them less powerful and having less loyal masses to draw upon.

 

Epic win btw Darth

 

Exactly, Crael.

 

Siuan and Leane are the perfect example of the Aes Sedai cast-like, discriminating and prejudiced system based on strength in the Power. As for the "supergirls", IMO, they're not as messed up, 'cause they haven't been around Aes Sedai long enough to get indoctrinated at the White Tower and also 'cause they've reached the shawl in very unconventional, unorthodox ways. Still, their obsession to control Rand and natural misgivings for male channelers indicate that they could end up following the same path. I just don't think there's enough time for that to happen.

 

As for the Seanchan, IMO, it's pretty much change or die for everybody in the WOT universe and they're no exception. My whole point was that their society, while loathsome, is not the only one that is completely upside down in the WOT universe, especially when compared to the much more humane and civilized Age of Legends.

 

Thanks for the comment. Much appreciated.

 

IMO, Aviendha's vision is questionable. It could be a warning instead of a true vision of the future, like Min's, for instance. And it even seems to be at odds with some of the latter's visions of glory for some characters. So, I guess it's open to interpretation and debate.

 

What contradictions does Aviendha's vision present?

 

I said that Aviendha's visions may be contradictory to Min's viewings, based on the fact that Min seems to have read greatness for many characters (Perrin, Logain, Moiraine, Thom, etc.) that somehow appears to be more of a long term thing, rather than in their immediate future. I never said that they contradict Min's viewings for a fact but, if Aviendha's visions were actual depictions of future events (as opposed to a potential warning or even a projection of her own, inner fears, for instance). I just find it hard to believe that all those characters would rise so high in so little time, as Min has seen for them.

 

But again, this is just my take on a subject that is already murky, simply because of the symbolic nature of Min's viewings (which she has admittedly not been able to interpret herself) and, like I said, is open to interpretation and debate.

[sethmiller22]

Personally I think that one of the more important scenes in this book could turn out to be the scene where Perrin stops the balefire. More than just being badass, it's the only known method of stopping something that can burn your thread from the pattern (unless I'm forgetting something, it's been a long time since I did a reread). As Egwene said, it's more than just a weave. Pet theory is now that TAR will have something to do with the final confrontation with the DO/sealing of the bore. It would be fitting for me that it does, too, as TAR has received alot of investment in this series.

 

I agree that TAR will have to do with sealing the bore. It mirrors the real world and what happens their can also happen in the real world. I also think that Rand stopped Balefire with Calandor in The Dragon Reborn.

[aunt_pol]

Anyone else think that her vision might have been tampered with?

And others' visions as well, possibly Couladin's.

 

Or all of them.

I kind of have a mental image of Wizard Peabody from Jim Butcher's Turn Coat going on here.

I've always questioned the visions in Rhuidean.

 

That's Muradin you're thinkin of, dude. Couladin's cousin.

[sethmiller22]

Em, since there aint a seperate thread for " what the hell was lanfear doing at the end of the book"...i wanna ask..

 

WHAT THE HELL WAS LANFEAR DOING AT THE END OF THE BOOK?!?!?!?!?

 

Seems to me like the mindtrap has cyndane/lanfears soul stuck in T'A'R.

And it seems to me that that soul was actualy good! Maby lanfear could be a candidate for the 13x13 turning to the shadow? and then that projection of her being "good" is maby a premonition of how the 13x13 turned soul is still good deep down.

 

QUOTE:

 

"Those eyes.Those beautiful, terrible eyes. Rand gasped, relesing her hand.. The face was differant. But he did know the soul. "Mierin? you're dead. I saw you die!"

 

She shook her head. "I wish I were dead. I wish it. Please! He grinds my bones and snaps them like twigs, then leaves me to die before healing me just enough to keep me alive. He-" She cut off, jerking.

 

 

"what?"

 

 

Her eyes opened wide and she spun towars the wall. "No!" she screamed.

"He comes! The shadow in every man's mind, the murderer of truth. No!"....She spun, reaching for rand, but something towed her backward. The wall broke away and she tumbled into the darkness below.

 

CLOSE QUOTE

 

The bold dialogue makes me think that she does still somewhere deep down oppose the shadown, a whole way forsaken by choice would not refrence GLOD as a " murderer of truth", no matter how she was being tortured, she would have completely given her soul, by choice.

 

Seems to me like there is hope for Mieirin yet.

 

Also, we could probably use a seperate thread for this type discussion, Luckers, if you're reading.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

I think that Lanfear will help Rand figure out how to seal the Bore. After all, she was responsible for the Bore in the first place. She knows what she did to create the Bore and mabye can suggest to Rand how to seal it. She could turn back to the Light, knowing that she has no future with the Shadow and is being totured by it. She does love LTT/Rand and has helped him in the past. The new forgiving Rand might be willing to give her a chance.

[aunt_pol]

I'm not actually sure how I feel about most of this book yet. Have to do my second read - would be on that right now if persky life didn't get in the way - to properly digest it.

1) I'm not sure bout this whole dreamspike carry on - it seems a little obvious to bring in a magical gateway-blocker just as everyone's getting used to gadding about all over the place all speedy-like.

2) I'm definitely hugely unimpressed with Verin's letter. A) No fun info. B) WTF? It would be tragic in the extreme IF she had had no other opportunity to pass on the Waygate info. I'm sure Egwene could've rustled up a few AS to sort it. Awful.

3) Intrigued by Lanfear's cameo, and even more by his reaction to her. Mat's little saying about one...two...three women (run for the hills) didn't have any option four.

4) ToG did seem a little rushed to me, too. Beside the amount of time invested in Maradon - which of itself was brilliant - it was a bit miserly.

5) And was Elayne's little Cairhienin adventure not a bit too easy??

6) The most moving part for me was the father/son reunion.

7) I really like how Perrin turned out. All those books he was whining and moaning, building up to - seemed like it'd never live up to the build up - awesomeness. And Faile's improving too.

8) And Nynaeve is absolutely wonderfully class.

[Darth Krewl]

I think that Lanfear will help Rand figure out how to seal the Bore. After all, she was responsible for the Bore in the first place. She knows what she did to create the Bore and mabye can suggest to Rand how to seal it. She could turn back to the Light, knowing that she has no future with the Shadow and is being totured by it. She does love LTT/Rand and has helped him in the past. The new forgiving Rand might be willing to give her a chance.

 

Yeah, maybe she does. Doesn't mean she'll turn back to the Light, though, 'cause Rand doesn't wanna reseal the Bore. He plans to kill the Dark One, once and for all. Otherwise the "Last" bit, as in Last Battle, wouldn't make any sense, if the Dark One was still alive to keep trying to break free at every passing of the Wheel.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I'm not actually sure how I feel about most of this book yet. Have to do my second read - would be on that right now if persky life didn't get in the way - to properly digest it.

1) I'm not sure bout this whole dreamspike carry on - it seems a little obvious to bring in a magical gateway-blocker just as everyone's getting used to gadding about all over the place all speedy-like.

 

Well to be fair, RJ has mentioned it when talking about the War of Power, so it is not something just made up now to fit the story. It had been in the plans.

 

Anyway, onto a different subject. Moridin and Taim.

 

It is now certain that Moridin controls the Black Tower. He has Asha'man fetching Graendal (tGS, ToM) and is turning people 13 x 13.

In addition, he also placed the Dreamspike there.

 

However, as much as I hate to admit, (Drekka will love this) I am actually considering Moridin=Taim. In addition to the points above that pretty much say Moridin controls the BT, there was something in ToM that made me suspicious.

 

"And you see," Taim said, walking with one hand folded - fingers making a fist- behind his back.

 

Look at Rand here in another chapter

 

After a moment, Nynaeve noticed Rand, watching her and standing with arms behind his back, clasping his stump.

 

And again.

 

The Dragon Reborn raised his right hand - his left arm was folded behind his back- and halted the procession.

 

Now look at Moridin when speaking to Graendal.

 

Moridin turned toward the fire, clasping his hands behind his back.

 

We know that Moridin is linked to Rand, his left hand doesnt work properly (we see in tGS) and they grow more alike with each day. So, Taim clasps his hand (I would bet on it being his left) behind his back like Moridin and Rand do. He is in ccontrol of the Black Tower, a place where Moridin placed a Dreamspike and recruited Asha'man DF. Also, look at the others that have been 13x13. They have all had cold eyes, looking dead. But Pevera notices fire and anger in his eyes.

 

I was one of the most anti Moridin-Taim, but I am thinking it is a great possibility.

[algspkr]

How did the showdown with Mesaana happen? I thought the only dream ter'angreal that allowed its user to channel was the original stone ring.

[toss the dice]

The Avendiha (spelling.. i know, im at a hostel in Jiuzhaigou, can barely type on this keyboard) chapter, I understand its significance, but wasn't sure why it was sorta thrown in the book here, seemed lost. Though, it appears Rand lives through Last battle, Fathers even more kids, but doesnt live too long; Maybe he is permanently Stilled in the battle. Curious about the Senchan, this implies that right now the path is on towards them dominating the world a few generations past LB.

 

this doesnt prove that Rand lives through the last battle. All that this proves is that at some point he has kids. We know that Elayne is already pregnant but what about Aviendha or Min? They could be in the early stages of pregnancy and not know it. Their is also no mention of Rand living or even winning the last battle. He could have lost for all we know but lost like in the past. Where the dragon was turned into a creature of the shadow and used as the shadows champion. That could be what turned the whole Aiel thing upsidedown. Plus the fact that the Aiel mention the Car'a'carn left them to die after the last battle. I dont think he would do that if he was still alive...

[toss the dice]

Also about the Lanfear thing. Anyone else think it weird that Rand would find her in his dreams when it seems as though shes being tortured by the Dark One...

[r4t5y6u7]

Also about the Lanfear thing. Anyone else think it weird that Rand would find her in his dreams when it seems as though shes being tortured by the Dark One...

 

I think he heard her torture through his link with Moridin and him going through the door was him following that link until he found her.

[FrankNeumann]

I'm too bloody lazy to quote each person, so I will just reference a few things here.

 

To the man speaking about Rand having no fear when confronted with 13 aes sedia in Far Madding, or being shielded in Tar Valon, it's simply because he can wield the True Power. No special hokus pokus power no one knows about thats "for the light". He can still channel if need be, and create a gateway out, and why should he be threatened by Aes Sedia inside Far Madding when he can still channel?

 

To the man mentioning Morridin = Tain because of the hand clasping.. Really? Really!? So many other characters in the book do it. Actually, it seems as if they try and portray all the powerful men as doing so. I seem to recall Ituralde, Bashere and Bryne doing it as well. It is something an assuming stance powerful men assume. Don't read too far into such normal things.

 

Foolish man talking about Perrin stopping balefire, and how important that was, how it was some sort of special power. Are you so blind? It has nothing to even do with balefire specifically, it's just Perrin exerting his will in TAR to stop weaves, to will them not to exist. That is all. It has nothing to do with balefire, just his power over TAR.

 

Anyways, I see a few people mentioned "BUT". What in tarnation are you speaking of? Am I missing something here?

 

 

As for my opinions on the book.. Well, I think it may be my favorite. In one sense, I wish more had been done, I felt as if a great deal of the book was centered around everyone's story lines catching up to the same time line as rands, which gave us very little time with rand himself. Even though things didn't progress quickly, so often I found myself grinning like a fool, filled with pride for the characters, happy to see people finally grow, to see people reunited. Watching Perrin overcome his leadership issues, Rands return to tear, Perrin meeting with Mat. So often did I find myself stopping and just soaking in a certain momentous event. I found myself laughing aloud at Mat. I exulted in glee whenever Rand talking about himself as Lews Therin. Near the end, when he has a conversation with Cadsaune and suggests she should call him Rand Sedai, I just couldn't get over that entire part. All in all, I felt that while the story was lacking in plot, it made up for it tenfold in the final stages of character development and relationships.

 

 

I had many questions as I read this book, but alas I forget most. One thing I noted was that Enamin, -I believe the name was?- from the black tower, he was mentioned for a bit, a carheinen who came to the tower recently and didn't talk much. If you wiki him, you wild find that he was a man that Cadsaune had gentled. I am very confused by this.

 

How did Rand identify Weiramon and his companion as darkfriends?

 

Did we get any glimpses into who Demandred is? I tried to notice, but was unable.

 

Oh, and I must say I'm severely disappointed in Egwenes narrow-mindedness. I had such great hopes for her after TGS, but it looks like she's beeing a foolish Aes Sedia once again, automatically distrusting Rand and jumping to conclusions about what "must and mustn't be". Also, Verins letter was silly at best. It could be left out.

[Sharaman]

Anyways, I see a few people mentioned "BUT". What in tarnation are you speaking of? Am I missing something here?

 

As for my opinions on the book.. Well, I think it may be my favorite. In one sense, I wish more had been done, I felt as if a great deal of the book was centered around everyone's story lines catching up to the same time line as rands, which gave us very little time with rand himself. Even though things didn't progress quickly, so often I found myself grinning like a fool, filled with pride for the characters, happy to see people finally grow, to see people reunited. Watching Perrin overcome his leadership issues, Rands return to tear, Perrin meeting with Mat. So often did I find myself stopping and just soaking in a certain momentous event. I found myself laughing aloud at Mat. I exulted in glee whenever Rand talking about himself as Lews Therin. Near the end, when he has a conversation with Cadsaune and suggests she should call him Rand Sedai, I just couldn't get over that entire part. All in all, I felt that while the story was lacking in plot, it made up for it tenfold in the final stages of character development and relationships.

 

 

I had many questions as I read this book, but alas I forget most. One thing I noted was that Enamin, -I believe the name was?- from the black tower, he was mentioned for a bit, a carheinen who came to the tower recently and didn't talk much. If you wiki him, you wild find that he was a man that Cadsaune had gentled. I am very confused by this.

 

How did Rand identify Weiramon and his companion as darkfriends?

 

Did we get any glimpses into who Demandred is? I tried to notice, but was unable.

 

Oh, and I must say I'm severely disappointed in Egwenes narrow-mindedness. I had such great hopes for her after TGS, but it looks like she's beeing a foolish Aes Sedia once again, automatically distrusting Rand and jumping to conclusions about what "must and mustn't be". Also, Verins letter was silly at best. It could be left out.

 

BUT is the Big Unnoticed Thing. Search for that on this board (General forum) for further explanations.

Weiramon is Rand being ta'veren or like Fain, he's hit a point where he can see a sooty mark and id DFs.

Emarin was Algiarin's relative who Cadsuane gentled. Algiarin decided to join the BT and presumably took his nephew's name (or it's the family name).

See KoD for further explanations.

Demmy remains officially off screen in his own persona.

[DottieGirl]

Alright, about 70 pages from being done. Points of interest:

 

1. Mesaana as Danelle was no surprise, after our speculating over the years. It seems like justice that the supposed brainiac of the Shadow is reduced to a babbling simpleton. I just hope that she isn't "brought back to life" by the Shadow in some unforeseen way. I suppose the Shadow will have bigger fish to fry.

 

2. The whole Elayne plot arch was okay, but a bit wearying for me. Now instead of Andoran politics its Cairhienin politics. Well, at least she'll have another capital city to which to flee after Caemlyn is overrun.

 

3. I found Avi's visions fascinating, but I don't believe them. The whole Nakmoi thing seemed really suspicious and I wonder if the FS have found a way to tamper with these ter'angreal in Rhuidean to achieve some kind of outcome, like Aviendha killing Tuon or seeking to dissuade Rand from a truce? I doubt it; however, it seems like the kind of ridiculous plots within plots the FS are so fond of, especially when more direct measures could be effective (like Graendal simply assassinating Perrin with balefire). I especially found it interesting in her visions that there was zero mention of the Shadow, even just one generation after TG.

[Elend]

If Mat hadn't been so hilarious and awesome in this book, Super Rand would be my new favorite character.

 

Also, about Rand identifying Darkfriends, it seems to have less to do with him noticing them and more with them doing obvious things that give them away because they can't stand be around him anymore. They either go crazy and suicide, etc. or they see him as being so bright they can't look upon him.

[wheel]

I think the Red-Veiled Aiel are Demandred's army, which he probably gathered in Shara. Or maybe new kinds of shadowspawn,though that's unlikely since Aginor isn't around.

 

And I think that Aviendha's viewing is just a possibility. Firstly if its a surety, then its also sure that Rand wins TG. And since she knows what could happen, she can stop it now. And she probably changed something in the pillars by touching them.

 

The BT will probably fall into conflict with Logain saving the day and achieving greatness.

[wheel]

The True Power probably will be used to seal DO's prison or to kill him.

[Elend]

Keep in mind that if Rand loses and the Dark One breaks free, the Pattern is destroyed and all prophecies are null and void.

 

But you're pretty much right, the chance for the Shadow to have a complete victory has passed, unless something involving Cyndane can put Rand back in the Shadow's play.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Keep in mind that if Rand loses and the Dark One breaks free, the Pattern is destroyed and all prophecies are null and void.

 

But you're pretty much right, the chance for the Shadow to have a complete victory has passed, unless something involving Cyndane can put Rand back in the Shadow's play.

 

mmm yes. I think that the Lanfear scene was a ploy by the Shadow. Lanfear would NEVER turn back to the Light.

 

Letter to Carolyn Fusinato from RJ - 1 February 1994

 

 

Lanfear holding back and doing good for Rand's sake? Ha! She was psychically fixed on possessing a man who never loved her. Even with that, her desire for Rand was as much a desire for power as for him. To be the one to deliver the Dragon Reborn to the service of the Shadow; that would set her above the other Forsaken. And learning that the access ter'angreal for the two huge sa'angreal were still in existence....Sure, she wanted his love--not least because it had been denied her; Lanfear was a woman who claimed a right to anything she wanted--wanted his devotion, but even more than his body, Lanfear wanted power, the power possibly to replace the Dark One, even to replace the Creator. For Rand's sake? Not a chance.

 

It could be that the Transmigration has changed her. Like it did with Aran'gar, but I find it highly suspicious.