Discuss The Full Book

[Negawonka]

Honestly I would say we have earned the opposite, happy ever after is too obvious of an ending for us and our often surprising series. This series is filled with plot twists and you never really know what is going to happen (you might suspect but things have happened no one could have predicted). Yes it would be sad if none of our Taveren three lived past the last battle, but part of this series that I love so much is that it is more realistic than most fantasy series - the good guys always have the decked stacked against them where the bad guys seem to roam around and do as they please. In real life being a hero is equated to getting yourself killed (or almost) doing the right thing.

 

/END RANT

 

As for this book, I can't wait to pick my book up tomorrow and vote before heading home to read it. From what I have seen of the spoilers, this book answers a lot less questions than the number of questions it creates. Demandred is probably not with the borderlanders, but now with these red veiled Aiel we have that in addition to Shara, that island filled with madmen, and Murandy. I normally would say that the island filled with madmen would be the most likely canidate, but I feel that since we haven't seen anything of them mentioned in the series it probably isn't them. I still vote for Murandy since I don't think that the red veiled Aiel exist in enough number to be considered an army and from what I remember of Shara I don't think they would have enough useful forces to warrant them being that far from the center.

[saterade]

i think even if taim isn't demandred (never say never until we find out exactly WHERE Demandred has been, but its a longshot that RJ was tricking people) there are similarities between the two. I think taim, like demandred, has a ton of anger and jealousy in him. Taim may have started out thinking he was actually the dragon reborn, but when he saw that there was someone better, he couldn't take it. He met the snotty kid and was pushed around by him, always being shown how he was inferior. For someone who believed he was the most important man in the world, that must have been torture. That alone may have been enough for him to turn to the seductive nature of the dark side(of the force...wait, wrong storyline...). From what I recall of Demandred, his story was eerily similar. Extremely jealous and always second best.

[Darth Krewl]

First, thank you to everyone who has posted spoilers, enjoyed them and kept the thread going. Man, I am so happy to have been a part of this community all of these years. I've even happier that with AMoL and movies and everything else that will happen, I have more great years to come. :)

 

3. Aviendha. Wow. That was pretty sad. I mean really really sad. And also very profound.

 

If indeed the forces of the Light win and this viewing pans out, then we are forced to believe that eventually, the Seanchan conquer the entire world, leash all the channelers in the world, destroy the Aiel . . . I mean, ok, it's not the Dark One destroying all of creation, but you gotta admit it is pretty f'ing depressing.

The only reason I can think of for this to be shown is for Aviendha to gain the insight to truly save the Aiel.

 

And WTF is all that about "remnant of a remnant" being saved by Rand? If Avi's visions are true then just a generation after the Last Battle, aren't there hundreds of thousands of Aiel?

 

I'm taking a hiatus at page 18 of this thread to post, so if I'm repetitive or redundant, that's why.

 

Have you ever really thought about history? Just a hypothetical group but take anarchists, for a second. History has been dominated by nations and states. Do you think it's a little odd that history books talk about nations and states?

 

What if, in some alternate history, anarchists had "won" the philisophical battle and become the majority presence in history? Wouldn't that make the "history" books a bit slanted and different to you?

 

The Wheel of Time is our fantastical future. We've seen it written from the perspective of people during the Third Age of this turning, and we identify with their views. But it doesn't mean that their views are "right" or anything. It's just what the story revolves around.

 

Are the Randlanders "vile" because they don't respect ji'e'toh? The Aiel would think so. Are the humans creepy because they touch the One Power? The wolves would think so. Are Third Age Aes Sedai barbaric because they severed the men who would go mad when the Second Age society honored them?

 

Human beings are complex creatures. Rand has many times referenced "culling" from his time as a shepherd. The Seanchan very much might view channeling as the same thing. Fast forward for a minute...

 

Say the Seanchan DO invade and conquer the world. And in 10 generations, they've managed to cull the ability to channel out of the world. In the 11th generation, there are no chanellers in the world and hence no role for the "slaves" you mention. What then? What do the Seanchan impart on the world? Unity? A sense of belonging? Racial diversity and equality not seen in our Age?

 

The "remnant of the remnant" are the Tinkers. It's been repeated in the latter books that they're finding safety in the Seanchan lands that they've never found before. They just happen to be the only Aiel group that DOES NOT use the name "Aiel".

 

There's an underlying theme of betterment, fight, survival and thriving in the WoT. It's also clear that humanity in the WoT isn't perfect. They're not the Creator. The lacks of communication, the assumption that "you've got a penis, you must be a woolhead" or "you wear skirts, you must be out to cloud my mind" are clearly undermining what it is that makes them apt to survive. Contrast Seandar where a woman can rise to great power based on her skills. Where a cunning man from a rural region with skin "as dark as coal" can be a High Lord.

 

Jim Rigney was a fan and student of history. It's often required to recognize the mistakes of past generations in order to rectify them.

 

Remember that when reading the WoT, you're reading about a world that has a very, VERY visible difference from the one we live in today. In that Third Age, there is a clear understanding of "good" (the Creator) and "evil" (The Shadow). In that world, the Seanchan invasion might end up defeating those would would choose violence over peace. Attack over discussion. Subjugation over evaluation.

 

What an excellent post. One of the best I've read.

 

I myself had been thinking that the Seanchan coming out as the winners in this whole affair would not be such a bad thing, after all.

 

Still, let's not forget that with Mat as their Empress's mate, things will also have to change radically within their own civilization. In other words, I don't think that a Seanchan ruler has taken a "Randlander" for a partner in the history of their Empire and I see them also changing from their attempted "Return". From that POV, it'll be interesting to see just what Mat brings to the table as the Prince of Ravens (if that's his title. I don't remember exactly right now).

 

So, in the end, even for those who want a happy ending, the thing's that the world of The Wheel of Time will change radically from what we've come to know (love it or hate it, the wheel's already willed it, so to speak) and there's no turning back.

 

That being said, the Shadow may still win (let's face it, right now, they stand the best chance) and then, none of this would matter. But if the Dark One doesn't get the prize and the Seanchan do rise victorious in the end, it'll be interesting to see how things shape up...if that can fit into one single book. Oh, and don't forget: Mr. Jordan's next project was supposed to be the story of a man who got lost in a Seanchan-like civilization, if I recall correctly, which may be a hint as to what kind of future he had envisioned for the WOT universe.

[Kevin Freeheart]

What an excellent post. One of the best I've read.

 

Hell of a compliment, thank you!

 

That being said, the Shadow may still win (let's face it, right now, they stand the best chance) and then, none of this would matter.

 

I disagree with this. Jim has gone on record as saying that one of the greatest achievements of the Greeks was giving "us" the idea of time as a line rather than a cycle.

 

I suspect the Wheel will be broken in the end. But I think this doesn't have to be a bad thing.

 

What does the Dark One want? He wants nothingness. The Great Lord is the penultimate nihilist.

 

And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful. Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!

 

Why would Darkfriends want destruction? Most of them signed up for eternal life! Asmodean wanted endless Ages of music. Lanfear wanted lots and lots of tries to get Lews Therin. Even Ishy, who seems to get the whole "nothing" thing, might (ToM speculation abounds!) have wanted endless tries at Lanfear.

 

The Dark One? He wants nothing. Literally. He is a slave to the Wheel. The subject of Creation. As long as the universe exists he exists. As long as he exists, he's second fiddle.

 

Rand has affirmed that he wants to slay the Dark One. He's pretty sure he can do it. Why in the Pit of Doom would the Dark One want the Dark Prophesy fulfilled? Most people think the Dark One wants the world destroyed, but you forget what it means to be a God. The world can die (recall, the Gardener analogy used to describe Portal Worlds, rosebuds in a garden, none more special than others) but as long as HE exists... he is still second.

 

The Dark One doesn't want to destroy the world because he and the Creator are beyond the world. The Dark One wants to die.

 

Why else would he rejoice when, and I quote...

 

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come.

 

What greater freedom for the Great Lord of the Dark than death, where he is not a subject to Creation?

[The Fisher King]

Kevin Freeheart = Brilliance.

 

((ApplaudS))

 

 

 

Fish

[WolfDream222]

I'm hoping for a bittersweet ending. Not too dark or depressing, but certainly not too pat or sugary sweet. I think Tolkien got it right, for the most part.

 

The sweet may be the Light winning. The bitter may be the Seanchan taking over the world, or the One Power dimming out of existence.

 

And I think at least one major character has to die. My money is on Perrin. Or Egwene. She has that whole angelic martyr thing going on.

[Diederichos]

What does being black have to do with the Seanchan being superior? YOu're reading too much into the Seanchan being multicultural. That asid, the SEanchan will change, I cannot believe that Tuon went all the way as to mention(or think) that no one can meet her as an equal as Empress and then we have her husband right there and none too happy with some of the things the Empire does. Most likely that there's soething about the Empress' husband allowing to speak to her as...equals or close enough in private sorta like SEafolk. We'll see.

 

Also, y ay, I get my book tomorrow.

[Sharaman]

Perrin is unlikely to die since Min has seen the Broken Crown in his future.

If Avi's visions come true, the Seanchan will rule a world where channeling still exists but all channelers are leashed.

Also most of the major characters will die pretty soon after TG.

[foillion]

So not to go completely off topic but was the Big Unnoticed Thing Mat's Ashendari and the fact that the finns gave him "something for nothing" aka the way out of the Tower?

 

-P

 

edit: also I'm extremely suspect of Mat's "bloody good hat" which came...via Lanfear....

[Jeangray]

Contrast Seandar where a woman can rise to great power based on her skills. Where a cunning man from a rural region with skin "as dark as coal" can be a High Lord.

 

And live their whole lives in terror of informers and secret police, who can haul them away and torture them to death at any time, without explanation or recourse.

Not to mention all the grovelling to their superiors they'd have to do on the way up. And risk of brutal punishment if they don't grovel enough.

You also forget that in most of Randland commoners can rise very high too. Thom's family were peasants, we have seen chief advisers to the Borderland monarchs who were of common origin, we have heard of Andoran consorts ditto,Ituralde, etc. There were a multitude of Amyrlins with backgrounds of extreme poverty, etc.

 

And what about Seanchan slavery? Not just of channelers, but general hereditary slavery, huh? Or doesn't it count if it isn't based on skin color? Yes, there are a few fortunate, privileged slaves like Selucia or Karede, who were selected for exclusive training and important duty, but what about the rest? And as we have also seen with Egeanin and Domon, the extremely rare manumitted slaves can never be social equals of freeborn Seanchan.

 

I am all for bittersweet endings and true Breaking at the end of the 3rd Age, but I would hate it if unchanged, continent-spanning Seanchan Empire were the future of Randland. Their multi-generation extreme vindictiveness re: Aiel in the vision only underscores how unpleasant they are.

 

Fortunately, I don't think that Aviendha's vision is a real or even likely future. For one thing, _all_ the main characters would have had to die within the 20 years post-TG for it to be possible. For another "remnant of remnant will he save" prophecy would have to be false. IMHO, it is more in the nature of a warning, constructed fro Avi's own knowledge, questions and fears.

[Sharaman]

So not to go completely off topic but was the Big Unnoticed Thing Mat's Ashendari and the fact that the finns gave him "something for nothing" aka the way out of the Tower?

 

-P

 

edit: also I'm extremely suspect of Mat's "bloody good hat" which came...via Lanfear....

Opinions still divided on the Naginata being the BUT.

The hat belonged to Kadere so it's unlikely to be an object of power.

[Luckers]

Wow. An epic book, and so much fodder. I think its now one of my favourites in the series.

 

I need to think some more--but elements of Aviendha's visions need more exposure. I too think Aviendha will stop them occuring, but that doesn't mean there aren't significant elements within them.

[clu7ch]

just my personal opinion, but Brandon's writing style was SO much more refreshing when it came to heavy Perrin/Whitecloak scenes, In earlier books, I found myself skipping those sections entirely, then forcing my attention on them in re-reads, but in this situation, I found myself engrossed with the scenes completely, and loving every minute of it. It didn't drag on like I half expected it to. Kudos on that. I was actually fluidly impressed with Rand's integration with Lews Therin, no more bickering in his head, it's more like (especially when Nyneave looked at his noggin) he's accepted and utilized the madness. The way he's fully become two people is interesting at the least. It's also made him notably more powerful with his weaves. Something I cringed at was his inclination to use the TP inside the Guardian if necessary. I don't like that. I heard that we would see the counter-stroke of his use of the TP in this book, did anyone catch it or was it omitted?

 

Also, the Mat>Elayne letter = priceless

 

Was extremely pleased with seeing the reintroduction of power-wrought weapons, even more pleased with the way it played out. I expected it to go down some other way, I like perrin's super hammer

 

The dream world sequences were extremely awesome, and caught me off guard each time a stealth attack came

 

Was super glad to see Egwene not get knifed by a seanchan, but kinda thought her hubby did for a second

 

Wish BS would have been a little more forthcoming with the details about Moiraine's mist-shrouded body...

 

Odd how caddy went from way down here on my favorite characters scale, and went way up there. Not to the top but close.

 

Even odder how Rodel annoyed me terribly in this book

 

Could have swore Paitar was gonna draw his sword on Rand in be like "RAWR I'm Demandred!"

[graendalzooescapee]

 

 

Quite the literary handle, "Alleluia_Cone". Nice to see another fantasy fan who appreciates magic realism.

[graendalzooescapee]

What is up with the red-veiled Aiel? If they are the Aiel male channelers, how were they turned to the Shadow without 13 channelers to start the process? The Black Ajah hasn't really been organized enough to manage this, and they've only had Traveling a short time. But if the red-veiled Aiel can't channel, why do they serve the Shadow?

 

Evidence is pointing to the Thing in the Blight being some kind of settlement providing channelers to the Shadow. Unless the Dreadlords at Maradon just came from the Black Tower.

[sumquy]

so, got my copy. reading chapter 1 again now. does anyone else think it a coincidence that the great ships with red sails, and the red veiled aiel? don't know yet, just thinking. okay, back to book. don't bother me for 2 days!

[Lynchgrinch]

ahhh just finished the book 10 mins ago!!! it's bloody awesome!!

 

realy one of my faves in the series, damn the wait for aMoL!!

 

EDIT: Also, how can Nynaeve be so awesome??? she has officialy WAAAAYYY surpassed Aviendha as my fave out of teh supergirls.

[Sharaman]

What is up with the red-veiled Aiel? If they are the Aiel male channelers, how were they turned to the Shadow without 13 channelers to start the process? The Black Ajah hasn't really been organized enough to manage this, and they've only had Traveling a short time. But if the red-veiled Aiel can't channel, why do they serve the Shadow?

 

Evidence is pointing to the Thing in the Blight being some kind of settlement providing channelers to the Shadow. Unless the Dreadlords at Maradon just came from the Black Tower.

We don't know for sure that they are Aiel just because they wear veils and carry spears.

Note, they remove the veils before killing him.

That's definitely not Aiel-like behaviour.

We also don't know if they can channel.

So we may actually be jumping to conclusions

[Diederichos]

I don't cry when reading books, and please don't take offense, but I never understood people who got that emotional over what is at the end of the day a story. Aviendha's experience in the columns did not make me cry, but I certainly felt seized up by emotion as I read that scene.

 

1. Aviendha in the Columns/Towers of Ghenji tied, and ToG is #1 only because I love Mat, in terms of emotional punch Aviendha is hands down first.

2. Mat and Perrin reunion.

3. Mat and Brigitte.

4. The wolves howling in victory in the beginning.

5. Perrin and Boundless at the end of the book.

 

 

Also, I fully admit I skipped over parts in my first reading, but why did the merchant say that Kandor fell, I thought that it was only the northern forts that did. Is that his impression or was it confirmed somewhere else in the book? And also, did Mat regain his original foxhead?

 

I am almost certain that the red-veiled Aiel are not in fact Aiel but Sharan, it's the impression I get. And any thoughts on Demandred's Eighty And One?

[Grape_Ape]

Contrast Seandar where a woman can rise to great power based on her skills. Where a cunning man from a rural region with skin "as dark as coal" can be a High Lord.

 

And live their whole lives in terror of informers and secret police, who can haul them away and torture them to death at any time, without explanation or recourse.

Not to mention all the grovelling to their superiors they'd have to do on the way up. And risk of brutal punishment if they don't grovel enough.

You also forget that in most of Randland commoners can rise very high too. Thom's family were peasants, we have seen chief advisers to the Borderland monarchs who were of common origin, we have heard of Andoran consorts ditto,Ituralde, etc. There were a multitude of Amyrlins with backgrounds of extreme poverty, etc.

 

And what about Seanchan slavery? Not just of channelers, but general hereditary slavery, huh? Or doesn't it count if it isn't based on skin color? Yes, there are a few fortunate, privileged slaves like Selucia or Karede, who were selected for exclusive training and important duty, but what about the rest? And as we have also seen with Egeanin and Domon, the extremely rare manumitted slaves can never be social equals of freeborn Seanchan.

 

I am all for bittersweet endings and true Breaking at the end of the 3rd Age, but I would hate it if unchanged, continent-spanning Seanchan Empire were the future of Randland. Their multi-generation extreme vindictiveness re: Aiel in the vision only underscores how unpleasant they are.

 

Fortunately, I don't think that Aviendha's vision is a real or even likely future. For one thing, _all_ the main characters would have had to die within the 20 years post-TG for it to be possible. For another "remnant of remnant will he save" prophecy would have to be false. IMHO, it is more in the nature of a warning, constructed fro Avi's own knowledge, questions and fears.

 

And that, Jeangray, was maybe the best post I have ever read! Amen and thank you for saving me the job of typing it up!

 

@Diederichos: Yeah it's just a story but, after a fashion, it's also a work of art. Art should move you on some level. Many levels if it's good. It's perfectly reasonable to shed a tear if something moves you that way.

[Crael123]

I want my book. NOW DAMNIT

[nwash_10]

I'm still confused why the bond between Lan and Moiraine was disconnected. She wasn't cut off from the true source. Yes, the Snakes and Foxes drained her of most of her one power ability but she did still have a small amount left....I'm wondering if this was one of her wishes because she knew Lan would try to rescue her and end up killing them both.

[A Trite Pun]

All right, great book. I have two burning questions...

 

1) who the hell was Nakomi?

2) what the hell was up with the Mierin scene?

 

also...i hope what Aviendha saw doesn't come to pass :(

[WolfTwins]

I haven't read ToM, I've read only the spoilers on this thread... and I have a question about the assault on Caemlyn.

 

BT is near, south-east of Caemlyn, so, could this trolloc assault lead to the clarification of the Taim's allegiance?

[Kestrel]

All right, great book. I have two burning questions...

 

1) who the hell was Nakomi?

2) what the hell was up with the Mierin scene?

 

also...i hope what Aviendha saw doesn't come to pass :(

My guesses:

 

1) Nakomi was Meirin, aka Lanfear/Cyndane. Avi was camped under a portal stone, and Meirin knows how to use them.

 

2) The Meirin scene which followed was a glimpse of her being punished for pulling that little stunt.

 

____________

 

This morning my Barnes & Noble e-mail advertised ToM for 40% off cover price, but B&N is on the other side of town :(

After I got off work I went to the competing big-box bookstore on my side of town, and they are selling the book for only 28% off the cover price :( :(

 

How dare they? They are selling other new releases for 40% off. I asked someone why, and was told sorry, they don't match B&N sale prices.

 

What to do? What to do?

 

I decided to be a cheapskate. I picked up the book, skimmed through it and read the scenes I most anticipated.

 

Then put it back on the shelf and went home to watch the election results. I'll stop by B&N tomorrow.