Chapter Two, "Questions of Leadership"

[Ataxia]

I can see why people find Perrin annoying. Why would his men insist on body guards on him if they didnt care about him? I agree about leaving him out of TGS, but im interested to see what the puzzle is. It could be as simple of unifying everyone. Think about the Two Rivers, where the women fought along side the men. Perrin is going to have a very large army behind him.

 

I also like the development of Wil al'Seen. He went from this womanizer who didnt want to carry the flag, to a very loyal and brave soldier. Granted, all of the Companions did, but we didnt get much info on the others.

[Orderofolde]

first time I've heard of Maidens riding anywhere

 

I hope our guesses of Perrin getting his moment of awesome are right, because his part in the story to me just reinforced the things I hate about his character.

I thought that might have been a mis-speak or typo, but seems others caught it that the "Maidens" rode. Or perhaps it meant Faile's wannabe Lordlings and lady Aiel?

[Luckers]

In reguards to Perrin's forming army, when I called it an Instant Army, I wasn't indicating disbelief--the shaido kept the young adults in pique physical condition. It's not shocking they could be weaponized.

[waffle]

***LIGHTBULB*** Random thoughts...

 

Didn't Morgase cede a parcel of land to the Whitecloaks during her captivity? What will Elayne think about having both The Black Tower and The Fortress of Light in Andor? At least Galad will have someplace to take the Children now.

 

Does Morgase have enough channeling abilty to bond Tallanvor?

 

Will Tam get bonded and or married again?

 

Could Perrin's current "army" defeat 20,000 Trollocs?

 

 

If she did cede then i´m pretty sure it was in exchange for help regaining Andor. Instead of help she got tortured and raped. So yeah. I´m no lawyer but i´m pretty sure that makes any agreement null and void.

 

Bonding Tallanvor? No idea. Would be cool.

 

I certainly hope Tam gets some action. Go Sulin.

 

If Perrins army sees the Trollocs coming the shadowspawn will probably be ripped to shreds. If Perrin gets ambushed the trollocs would still lose but Perrin would take heavy losses.

[ColeOfCentauri]

Yay, another chapter of the grumpy blacksmith who has been denying his destiny for 20 years. He is described as slow witted by some, but this is pushing it. Cmon, Perrin! Embrace your badassness!

 

I found it odd that the bubble of evil seemed to have targeted the channelers in his party. Is it the will of the DO or is the pattern keeping Perrin stuck in the mud?

I think we may be seeing proof that the "bubbles of evil" are the work of the pattern. Another case is the one in tear. This turned Perrin's axe against him, made Berelain quite pursuing Rand (so she could pursue Perrin), and stop the nobles from hanging with Mat which kind of led to Mat hitting the doorway. Maybe Moiraine was wrong and it is the pattern. Hopefully we will find out.

 

Hmm, I suspect that what this truly means is that, while Shai'tan is the cause of the bubbles - guy suddenly bursting into flames or having his insides turned to bugs sounds like the DO, not the Pattern - he cannot control what they do and where they hit, and perhaps the pattern sets up the setting before the bubbles hit so that it can use them to its advantage, thus scaring Berelain away from Rand. It's just like how the Black Ajah splitting the Tower set up Egwene's rise to the Amyrlin Seat, how the Whitecloaks' mistreatment of Morgase set up Galad's rise to LCC, and how Rand's torture, led by Galina of the Black Ajah, subsequent swearings of fealty, Taim's order to bond the Aes Sedai invasion team, and the wounds from the DO and Padan Fain on Rand's side all set up the cleansing of saidin. It's just like what Joseph told his brothers in the book of Genesis, "What you did for evil [selling me into slavery], God used for good [making him #2 in all of Egypt]". What the Dark One uses for evil, the Pattern, or perhaps the Creator, use for good.

 

So, I agree and disagree with what you're saying. I think the bubbles of evil are the DO messing with the pattern, but the Creator sets up the Pattern as well to twist those bubbles into good. That's my inference, and it fits with RJ's allusions to the major religions.

[ColeOfCentauri]

A lot of people have brought up the current vise (vice?) in Perrin's character, his unwillingness to accept lordship, and I think this is gonna develop much like Rand's debilitating hardness in TGS, and so it'll be resolved in this book. That's the only reason I can think of that so much attention is given to Perrin's baggage.

[KoenVandendurpel]

I heard Perrin say to the mercenary to go to Tam so I think the scene is pre-VoG . What they found ahead is the statue buried.(there will be something along that makes the Aiel nervous). It might be trollocs (but I doubt it, aiel aren't nervous about them)

 

As for the style in writing... I always read a book for the story, never for the writer. some write more fluent and long threaded, some write more to the point. It is the writers way. I am happy that someone will finish the story, so I don't mind the difference in style.

[gambril]

For being one of the main 3 characters in the books, Perrin so far has been a huge disapointment. He is along with Sevanna and various other POV's the most boring to read. The sole reason he even has any followers at all is his taveren nature. Otherwise he would be what he wants to be, just a blacksmith. Granted he is a good leader simply because he cares and thinks of his men first, but the only reason he was even given a chance to be a leader was because of the Pattern. His sincerity in caring about people is like the only positive thing about him that I can think of off the top of my head.

 

Otherwise here we have one of the most important characters in the series who constantly whines about the situation he's been put in. I'm not a leader, I'm just a blacksmith! Really Perrin? I've never heard of a blacksmith that has a following of 100k+ people with 3 queens in his retinue. Mat and Rand did the same whining with the accepting their roles of leadership, but ummm yeah it didn't take them 9 books. For Rand it took from the end of TEOTW to the end of TDR. For Mat it took from TEOTW to TFOH.

 

I realize that Perrin needed to remain a crybaby throughout the series and come to his 'epiphany' near the end, but the constant whining since TSR has really grated and dragged and makes Perrin one of the least enjoyable characters to read and he's suppose to be one of the main characters :(. Perrin can be saved in my opinion depending solely on how his 'epiphany' is handled though, so we'll see. It just sucks for re-reads because reading Perrin POV's and storyline will be skipped until he becomes 'cool' again So I guess on re-reads will only read Perrin in TEOTW through TSR, then skip ahead to TOM. Otherwise yeah, I love re-reading this series but skipping Perrin's POV's is already common for me.

 

The only interesting bit to look forward to in Perrin's storyline to me is how the Morgase thing is handled. We know Galad will join Perrin so there's no suspense there . The reunion of Byar and Bornhald with Perrin will be interesting as well. But as for Perrin himself, he's too much of a crybaby to be interesting.

 

Galad on the otherhand is easily one of the most level headed characters in the series along with Mat. Galad is awesome and exactly what the Whitecloaks needed. I hope for both Rand and Galad's sake they can come to realize that they're brothers. If that scene is left out I'll be a sad panda for both of them. Too bad Galad's not the one that's taveren and the Pattern picked Perrin instead.

[Rcurran]

Perrin is a good guy, unfortunately, he hasn't had a decent party for yonks. He's one of these guys who bottles it all up, poor chap. When he does speak he instantly commands respect. He has become a tad boring though that's true.

 

The thing that always got me about Perrin was that he has an awful lot of insight. When he first decided to throw away the axe he went off on a mission of crazy self denial. His old mentor did not give him advice for life just what he needed at the time, now he has to reconcile the parts of him to become better than the sum of his individual parts.

 

 

Etc etc etc

[TonyMacaroniGlenholmes]

Galad's victory was the verbal jousting with Asunawa in the prologue. He basically set up his victory with his logical arguments against Asunawa's zealotry.

 

As for the Perrin, I think we all need to look at it from a book progression standpoint. WoT may have taken a couple of decades to write, but chronologically, his 'not accepting his destiny' arc is only six books deep. It can get tiresome, but is it any different to Rand's drift into madness and eventual epiphany? Mat had his moment in the last book, the 'pointless' Hinderstrap story that others point to is the moment he accepts he can no longer run from Tarmon Gaidon and his Taveren-ness.

 

I think this is juxtapose to the main female protagonists who actively seek their station in life, i.e. Egwene as Amyrlin, Aviendha as Wise One, Nynaeve as great Aes Sedai, Elayne as Queen, Min as philosopher (sorta)

[Drewshaw]

I think Perrin is being set up to be a world leader after TG.

[Rcurran]

Good point about gender differences - I think it's partly down to the girls having most of their plans mapped out for them. Certainly the female characters seem more able to embrace what the pattern weaves for them.

[jdbond]

I think Perrin is being set up to be a world leader after TG.

 

 

 

Hmmm..Over Tuon and Seanchan people? Aiel? Borderlanders? ....Never going to happen.

[Rcurran]

Manitherin?

 

Did anyone else think it's strange that the pattern is pushing Perrin's followers to start training for war? Normally Armies are described as attracting followers not more fighting men and they don't recruit from their followers but Perrin's followers volunteer...

 

I never saw Perrin as Rand's Kittinger.

[Treemaster]

Elayne was born to be the queen, and Nynaeve fought becoming an aes sedai pretty vigorously, early on. So, it's really just Egwene that is accepting her new role...and given her character it's not surprising.

[Cyf]

See, I think it's going to happen. Perrin might have agreed with the Seanchan not to create Manetheren, but I don't think the Pattern is going to let that go. :) Elayne'll be pissed off, but there's not much she can do if Perrin ends up ruling everything from Saldaea to Manetheren to Ghealdan. That far outweighs her realm in land, manpower, and resources. I think Elayne'll end up with Cairhien, and thus be able to not make a stand for Manetheren due to that.

[Rcurran]

Perrin might not have a choice about any of this, greatness is being thrust upon the big dolt. If the people carry the flag and he tells them not to then Elayne won't be able to do much about it. Taxes come in time but a nation is essentially a shared culture, an army and a flag.

[Naffy]

I could totally take Perrin in arm wrestling. Think I can't?

[b3arz3rg3r]

I could totally take Perrin in arm wrestling. Think I can't?

 

Looking at how thin my arms are I probably couldn't. I could however take him in thumb wrestling. I'm quite good at that.

[aunt_pol]

Can't remember who asked it, but I'd be really surprised if Morgase were able to Bond Tallanvor. Now admittedly, her only display of channeling onscreen (the flag-waving in Malden) was under the influence of forkroot from Perrin's adventure, but in one of her POVs, I think, she mentions being given the Ring as, essentially, a courtesy, and that she would never have attained that level on her own.

IIRC the Warder Bond would be one of the more complex weaves.

[SvetSedi]

I am frequently subject to memory losses - so I could be wrong, but I think that she drank the Forkroot after they got out. Also, I am sure the Elayne would "link up" with her long enough for her to "Bond" her husband. After all it's the "right thing to do" and Galad will tell her so.

[MichaelJG]

I am frequently subject to memory losses - so I could be wrong, but I think that she drank the Forkroot after they got out. Also, I am sure the Elayne would "link up" with her long enough for her to "Bond" her husband. After all it's the "right thing to do" and Galad will tell her so.

 

 

Yeah, but if they were linked at the time, wouldn't that kind of make Elayne bonded to Tallanvor as well? Maybe loan her the "Turtle Brooch" angreal might be enough for Morgase to weave the warder bond.

[hawkeye31]

Now admittedly, her only display of channeling onscreen (the flag-waving in Malden) was under the influence of forkroot from Perrin's adventure,

 

Actually, she only drank the forkroot spiked water after they were rescued by rolan et al

[haloun]

just to point out, the maidens riding was something perrin said, not something that happened. we see the maidens returning from scouting ahead, but they are not on horseback.

 

also while i understand that perrins progression has been very slow and somewhat annoying, you have to realise, he hasnt really been on his own for a while. it seems to me that in order for the taveren to actually progress they have to do things their way. the last progression we see perrin in is when he rescues rand in LOC, then we see rand give him an assignment. then faile gets captured, and it has only been what three months timeline wise since then? he had i think 51 knots when he rescued her(dont have my book with me right now but i believe that is right), which is less than two months, and now a third month since leaving malden. so three months to get to his epiphany since leaving rands designs for him. how long in the timeline did it take mat? Rand sent him to get Egwene and bring her home. Egwene sends him to ebou dar, and then he finally gets his way when elayne and nynaeve leave, which allows him to make his own decisions again. how long travelling away from ebou dar before some real progression from him and accepting the role of a leader? i think it would actually be about the same amount of time. along the tmie line though rand has taken the longest for his epiphany, since LOC he has bee afraid of any box or thing that restricted him in any way, and yet it seems he needs to stay out of things for them to work. he has done a good job cleansing the taint, but that isnt character progression since he still suffers from the madness, he kills a few forsaken but that doesnt really progress his character either, he does get the darth rand thing going for a while, and i suppose that could be considered progression, but he is thinking the wrong way, which is the opposite of everything perrin seems to be thinking, the only two who have had right recently are Galad and Mat, maybe Egwene, the only thing they should be worried about is tarmon gaidon, the patter will unite the nations, the pattern will keep the seanchan from attacking, the taveren dont have to worry about it. but rand and perrin seem to think that the only things they have to worry about is how much power they have, rand wanting more, and perrin wanting less. i realize rand had his epiphany now but that really doesnt mean much as far as the last few books go. sorry for the long post i just think people lose perspective as to where the characters actually are after twenty years.

[haloun]

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1BlDzpVYVvv3zi-EucPwgtIzAjSw1Al-Q6OAl9gXxxsw&pli=

 

I didn't transcribe this but here's the link. Thanks to whoever did it. I got the link from Read and Find Out.

i think your link is missing something, everyone seems to be talking about a graendel POV and there isnt one in there.