Chapter Two, "Questions of Leadership"

[jdbond]

Prolly they found dead DO's dead body. He was trying to kill himself anyways. Perrin is the true Dragon reborn!

[The Fisher King]

Just a few thoughts...

 

1 Maidens do not often ride. But its not OUTLAWED or anything like that and we have seen them do it before. Avi, in particular. It is RARE, true - not unheard of.

 

2 We actually WERE shown Mat/Couladin...it was veeeeery short, true, and in flashback form - but still sweet.

 

3 As for BS - You just have to remember he was brought in to FINISH off this series. I'd suspect that if it were his series from early on that he'd be plotting things out a bit more gradually and not moving as so fast a pace. He just doesn't have the time.

 

 

Fish

[Ted M]

Regarding the riding Maidens...is it possible that he's referring not to actual Aiel maidens, but to some of Faile's wannabe Maidens from Tear?

[Tremalking]

I was actually re-reading The Dragon Reborn when a friend told me the audio chapter was available, so I went straight from a TDR-Perrin scene to a ToM-Perrin scene. Gotta say he's still being himself, just a different kind of himself, it didn't feel like a jarring switch. Faile's just been tangling the threads in his head (with his permission as often as not) for quite a while.

 

Audio books are a bit different kettle than some people expect because of they way they're spoken - it's actually a pretty well thought-out way to make sure the listener catches everything the same way they would when reading. If the readers were speaking normally, our brains would simply start skipping words and start piecing stuff together by prediction. So, strange reading, but after a while it melts into the background as our ear-to-brain processes get used to it.

 

But aside from that, does anyone have a link to a (good) map showing where they've been and where they're going?

You can see how the characters move here.

[Sentinel78]

Just a few thoughts...

 

1 Maidens do not often ride. But its not OUTLAWED or anything like that and we have seen them do it before. Avi, in particular. It is RARE, true - not unheard of.

 

 

Plus, no matter how strong my legs were, running in 3-foot deep mud is no fun. This might have just been a mud-compensation technique.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Just a few thoughts...

 

 

2 We actually WERE shown Mat/Couladin...it was veeeeery short, true, and in flashback form - but still sweet.

 

 

Fish

 

And if you happened to have purchased the 2009 calendar then you got a very good view of it LOL

[Sawa]

Man, two more weeks this is killing me. Pure torture, Galad's would have been easy in comparison.

But now seriously, I think that Galad's dileman was handed quite well. If BS would try to expand on every thread left hanging by RJ we would get not 3 books but at leat 6. SO I prefere the 3 we're getting to be more focused and fast pacing than was the norm with books 8-12.

 

Sawa

[jemron]

This was nice, but pretty boring for a "promotional" chapter. I wish we could've got ch. 3 instead... Oh well. I guess I shouldn't really complain about getting free content early.

 

I thought the Galad thing was handled well, not too fast for me. I think Perrin is boring as usual, but I can tell he's being set up for some really great payoff for this book.

 

Maidens on horses... so what?

[Sanctume]

Egwene's Dream from tDR:

 

“Perrin stepping willingly over the edge of a towering cliff while saying, "It must be done. I must learn to fly before I reach the bottom."”

 

I guess this is foreshadowing Perrin's upcoming epiphany moment. I like Galad now, but from a military standpoint, how relevant are the Whitecloaks really? A 13000-strong non-channeling army doesn't seem very impressive nowadays?

 

With such fast changes, they can be qualified Warders for the newly acquired channelers (kins). Who knows what taverns can do when they come close together...

[aunt_pol]

Christ almighty, does anyone else want to strangle Perrin right now? I know it's mostly inside his head, but enough with the moaning already! Gaah! That was a pretty much useless half chapter, IMO. And Perrin used to be my favourite.

Galad was cool, though. He is gonna be a super badass LCC.

[TheAngryDruid]

Anybody catch this (from transcription)?

 

Perrin POV:

 

Thunder rumbled above, soft and menacing like the growl of a distant beast. Perrin turned his eyes toward the sky. A few days ago, the pervasive cloud cover had turned black, darkening like the advent of a horrible storm, but rain had come only in spurts.

 

Galad POV:

 

This was a heavy sleeping tent constructed to be dark during the daylight hours. The lights above weren’t stars at all, but sunlight through the occasional pinholes of wear in the canvas. He was still naked, and with tentative fingers he determined that there was dried blood on his face. It had come from a long gash in his forehead. If he didn’t wash it soon, infection was likely.

 

Is this another timeline discrepancy? Galad's sky has sunlight but Perrin's is pitch-black (probably triggered by Rand's TP-channeling).

 

I figured Galad and Perrin would at least be aligned...

 

Good catch, but I don't think it points to a discrepancy at all. If anything, to a convergence.

 

First, on the TL itself. Cooper being the base:

Day 749: Perrin attacks Malden (Perrin says it's been more than a month since: 29 days (or more) from here.

Day 773: Verin visits Mat

Day 776: Adrin is killed by the bubble of evil that burns the manor. (Earliest possible day for Perrin's viewing of Rand).

Day 779: Rand is imprisoned with the domination band. (And maybe the clouds get dark as a result).

Day 780: Rand prepares to leave the manor for Bandar Eben (possible Perrin viewing date).

Day 781: Rand leaves for Bandar Eban (latest day Perrin could view him at the manor: more than a month since Malden, and a couple of days after the clouds got black, if they reacted to his TP use).

Day 783: (1st Day Mat can open the later if Verin got him there on day 773. SSL date?)

Day 784: Rand has the vision of Rand with Galadv, and Thom and Mat riding in Caemlyn. (1st day Mat can open letter if he got to Caemlyn on 784).

Day 800: Verin visits Egwene

Day 801: Nynaeve gets Tam after Rand tells her where he is.

Day 802: VoG. Circle of Light (maybe on 803).

 

 

As for Galad being in the sunlight, a couple of mundane explanations.

1) The weather has broken where he is, but not around Perrin. Galad is he's likely a bit east of Perrin.

2) The weather has broken a bit around Perrin by this time, too, he just didn't notice (the dolt!)

3) Galad and Perrin aren't synced completely.

 

Or a another one:

1) Galad is starting to have the same effect that Rand/Perrin/Mat are having.

2) Perrin is now in very close proximity to Galad, and Galad is now inside Perrin's bubble of order/belief, which is reasserting itself a bit after Rand's TP use. Or the combination of the two of them in proximity is producing the effect.

 

Still, we've got around 4-5 days (max) until Perrin and Galad meet up. Perrin and Galad are pretty close to synchronized. And Mat & Perrin are also pretty close, but still around 20 days behind Rand/Egwene.

[flinn]

Anybody catch this (from transcription)?

 

Perrin POV:

 

Thunder rumbled above, soft and menacing like the growl of a distant beast. Perrin turned his eyes toward the sky. A few days ago, the pervasive cloud cover had turned black, darkening like the advent of a horrible storm, but rain had come only in spurts.

 

Galad POV:

 

This was a heavy sleeping tent constructed to be dark during the daylight hours. The lights above weren’t stars at all, but sunlight through the occasional pinholes of wear in the canvas. He was still naked, and with tentative fingers he determined that there was dried blood on his face. It had come from a long gash in his forehead. If he didn’t wash it soon, infection was likely.

 

Is this another timeline discrepancy? Galad's sky has sunlight but Perrin's is pitch-black (probably triggered by Rand's TP-channeling).

 

I figured Galad and Perrin would at least be aligned...

 

Good catch, but I don't think it points to a discrepancy at all. If anything, to a convergence.

 

First, on the TL itself. Cooper being the base:

Day 749: Perrin attacks Malden (Perrin says it's been more than a month since: 29 days (or more) from here.

Day 773: Verin visits Mat

Day 776: Adrin is killed by the bubble of evil that burns the manor. (Earliest possible day for Perrin's viewing of Rand).

Day 779: Rand is imprisoned with the domination band. (And maybe the clouds get dark as a result).

Day 780: Rand prepares to leave the manor for Bandar Eben (possible Perrin viewing date).

Day 781: Rand leaves for Bandar Eban (latest day Perrin could view him at the manor: more than a month since Malden, and a couple of days after the clouds got black, if they reacted to his TP use).

Day 783: (1st Day Mat can open the later if Verin got him there on day 773. SSL date?)

Day 784: Rand has the vision of Rand with Galadv, and Thom and Mat riding in Caemlyn. (1st day Mat can open letter if he got to Caemlyn on 784).

Day 800: Verin visits Egwene

Day 801: Nynaeve gets Tam after Rand tells her where he is.

Day 802: VoG. Circle of Light (maybe on 803).

 

 

As for Galad being in the sunlight, a couple of mundane explanations.

1) The weather has broken where he is, but not around Perrin. Galad is he's likely a bit east of Perrin.

2) The weather has broken a bit around Perrin by this time, too, he just didn't notice (the dolt!)

3) Galad and Perrin aren't synced completely.

 

Or a another one:

1) Galad is starting to have the same effect that Rand/Perrin/Mat are having.

2) Perrin is now in very close proximity to Galad, and Galad is now inside Perrin's bubble of order/belief, which is reasserting itself a bit after Rand's TP use. Or the combination of the two of them in proximity is producing the effect.

 

Still, we've got around 4-5 days (max) until Perrin and Galad meet up. Perrin and Galad are pretty close to synchronized. And Mat & Perrin are also pretty close, but still around 20 days behind Rand/Egwene.

 

 

OR...

Even a cloudy day is light compared to dark. So if you are inside a dark tent on a cloudy day, outside is still brighter. So light (even cloudy light) coming through pin holes is very noticable in a dark tent. And having the tar beaten out of you probably amplifies it quite abit. It has nothing to do with the timeline.

[metaphor]

I liked this chapter.

We discover that all 3 ta'veren can stop the effect of the dark one.Perrin has found a blacksmith puzzle, which is to him what the dices are to Mat,a sort of signal of his taverennes..

It's an extremely difficult puzzle, like his task. He must move around his forces, the white cloacks, and other forces to obtain something. He must build an army, and his dreams are probably telling him that he must accept his leadership role, and mold his people into something.

Faile realizes that, and that the pattern is forcing Perrin's actions. Something important has been found by the maidens, so I'd say the next Perrin chapter will reveal the first plot twist.

Overall Perrin has remained the same, but his storyline is moving fast. And hopefully he'll fully understand his role rather quickly.

 

Galad's plotline perhaps needed more build-up, but was resolved nicely anyway, and I liked that not too much time was spent on it. Now he is finally being set on Perrin's path, to let him complete his puzzle.

 

I'd say that this chapter was a promise of things to come, and I can't wait to read more.

[sumquy]

If that is the case, I'm nuking Utah.

 

the FBI is now tracking your car. Do not try to sell the device on ebay.

 

overall i liked the chapter content. i just hate having somebody read it to me. i don't think perrin has changed a bit since tdr. he was awesome back then because he was doing stuff in between whining and brooding scratching. now he only actually does stuff occasionally and the things he does do are seen coming so far ahead of time that instead of being excited by it, im like "about #$%^ ing time".

 

i really liked galads part. i was indifferent to him in the early books, but the later ones where we see from his pov make him one of my favs.i disagree with some of the posters who said rj would have shown asuwana getting killed on screen. this is classic rj, the event is almost unimportant, its the consequences of it, and the rumors that spread because of it that matter.

[sdelu]

 

OR...

Even a cloudy day is light compared to dark. So if you are inside a dark tent on a cloudy day, outside is still brighter. So light (even cloudy light) coming through pin holes is very noticable in a dark tent. And having the tar beaten out of you probably amplifies it quite abit. It has nothing to do with the timeline.

 

Heh. I had a similar post ready to go earlier. That's essentially what I wrote, too, except I added the caveat that maybe it was just a poor word choice and not a byproduct of anything story-related.

 

Doesn't really matter either way. If the smallest detail BWS gets wrong is whether or not it's sunny out, I'll consider that a good thing :)

 

 

Liked the chapter. The Perrin sobfest didn't surprise me, and actually I think he's coming close to doing something... one way or another. As annoying as it could be, I think it'd be interesting to have him give up his army, so long as there are repercussions...

[Savere]

The maidens are riding because they have a bunch of snake bites on their ankles. That would make me less inclined to run around in the mud too even if I can laugh at pain.

[grolm]

A strong candidate for worsts chapter of the entire series.

 

Faile may have to hit Perrin over the head with his dang hammer before he sees the obvious.

 

Galad was more fun a bad good guy or a good bad guy.

[Luckers]

Or possibly they are riding due to the mud.

 

Looking at it, I actually like this chapter better than either of the tGS ones--it says with much greater elegence why Perrin is troubled, and why they aren't travelling ('we nearly died is a better explenation to 'we're too tired to tie off a gateway')--the problem is just that if feels like we've read it before, so it loses some of its weight as a scene. I genuinely wish that Perrin had been cut from tGS altogether, and that this would be our first introduction to his storyline.

 

Galad I also really like upon a second look--Brandon really nails his voice. But I just don't understand why the Asunawa plot was brough up. Even if, say, the Lords Captain had walked in and beheaded Asunawa in front of Galad after Galad refuses to bend to Asunawa's tortures... but no.

 

Peter Ahlstrom quoted someone on twitter which made me laugh, it went something like 'the whitecloak thing was like if in tFoH the Sitters randomly up and deposed Elaida'.

[DC-Reader]

I enjoyed the chapter, but agree that Perrin's character is frustrating. His angsty whining makes him seem like a brooding philosophy major at a liberal arts college. Only Perrin isn't comfortably nestled in an ivory tower of learning and privileged with the safety needed to have an existential crisis. Armageddon is bearing down NOW and creation itself is at stake. Why doesn't that motivate him to "seize the tiller" the way rescuing Faile did? I mean, if the Dark One wins then Faile is as good as dead. Wouldn't that be worse than if she were a Shaido captive? I thought they established several books ago that Perrin isn't as dumb as he looks. I guess not.

 

I've always sort of liked Galad, or rather an intriguing conflict he seemed to contain - that it's possible to be "too" right, and that it can be dangerous being too near someone who steadfastly maintains their righteousness and always acts according to what they think is right, NO MATTER WHAT. The series seemed to be building toward a central moment when Galad would be forced to decide between his heart and his principles. Was that his moment with Asunawa, and surrending himself to save his troops? Or maybe it was deciding that the One Power must be used in the Last Battle, even though Aes Sedai are anathema to the Children? I'll be curious to see if BS goes any further with this character's development, or if that's it for him.

 

And about Faile ... I've always seen her as a spoiled rich girl who ran away from home seeking excitement, sensed excitement in Perrin and his posse, and sunk her claws in. Combine that with the way she embraces her nobility, the constantly smug attitude and annoying sense of entitlement, the not-so-subtle manipulations - it all adds up to a character I really don't like. But whatevs. We've all known that nice guy who dates a total *itch that isn't right for him. You need to respect his decision and hope he snaps out of it and DTMFA.

 

No, what bothers me is that there is so much drama that should have been mined here, so many elements that could have been amped up to make this storyline absolutely delicious. What if, in a moment of weakness, Perrin really had slept with Berelain and Faile truly had seduced Rolan in order to escape? Then there would be real conflict to resolve. Or if Faile gave Perrin an ultimatum - "Man up and lead this army to the Last Battle, or we're through and I will lead them myself." This storyline could have provided some of the most tense buildup and most most satisfying payoff of the series. Instead, we have tepid milktoast that is almost inedible. At last Mat's storyline seems to be heating up, and we have more Egwene/Rand to look forward to.

[Suttree]

Sorry but how tortuous was the audio book reader's voice every time Perrin whined/growled Faaaiillleee. Seriously fingernails on a chalkboard.

 

Also the Galad rescue was not handled well at all. I agree with earlier comments that RJ left Galad captured/Asunawa deposed notes and BS had no way to expand on it with how close we are to the end.

[dwn]

'Death is lighter than a feather; duty is heavier than a mountain' has been a theme for all the characters in leadership positions, really. Rand is afraid he can't save everyone (esp. women), Mat doesn't like the weight of titles and responsibility, Perrin is afraid of making mistakes (goes with his deliberate nature), Egwene abandoned the rebels to pursue her goals for the Tower, Elayne has lamented the restrictions on her adventuring, Lan has been avoiding leadership his whole life.

 

I think the main point of this chapter was to contrast Perrin's shirking of duty with Galad's acceptance of it. Perrin is nearly paralyzed by his mistakes, real or imagined, while Galad seems satisfied knowing he's made the best choices he could have.

 

Regarding the narrative flow, I think the Perrin scenes here and in TGS work, even if they're a bit plodding (i.e. the flow matches Perrin's personality). I think Galad surrendering should have been in TGS, and a trial/torture scene with him should have replaced it in the ToM prologue, but it's not a huge deal given his small role thus far.

 

-- dwn

[dwn]

No, what bothers me is that there is so much drama that should have been mined here, so many elements that could have been amped up to make this storyline absolutely delicious. What if, in a moment of weakness, Perrin really had slept with Berelain and Faile truly had seduced Rolan in order to escape? Then there would be real conflict to resolve. Or if Faile gave Perrin an ultimatum - "Man up and lead this army to the Last Battle, or we're through and I will lead them myself." This storyline could have provided some of the most tense buildup and most most satisfying payoff of the series. Instead, we have tepid milktoast that is almost inedible. At last Mat's storyline seems to be heating up, and we have more Egwene/Rand to look forward to.

 

I think we're supposed to feel annoyed with Perrin. While this chapter was a Perrin POV, we're really supposed to see him through Faile's eyes and she's about ready to clobber him with something blunt.

 

Having some 'real' problems for Perrin and Faile to work through would have been fun to read, but not really in line with Perrin's overall character arc. His main issue is that he's practically crippled by what -isn't- real. He imagines faults in himself that aren't there; he's afraid of mistakes he hasn't made; he pretends he's only a blacksmith's apprentice given overwhelming evidence to the contrary; he's terrified of his wolf nature that he doesn't fully understand.

 

Perrin's near perfect victory at Malden actually did cause him to regress because it reinforced his belief that life is just a puzzle that, once understood, will work out perfectly. Remember how he even winced at the handful of casualties he suffered? Perrin has to realize that quite often you must act as best you can without seeing all the pieces and possibilities.

 

-- dwn

 

(Edited to fix a typo.)

[The Dirty Landry]

No, what bothers me is that there is so much drama that should have been mined here, so many elements that could have been amped up to make this storyline absolutely delicious. What if, in a moment of weakness, Perrin really had slept with Berelain and Faile truly had seduced Rolan in order to escape? Then there would be real conflict to resolve. Or if Faile gave Perrin an ultimatum - "Man up and lead this army to the Last Battle, or we're through and I will lead them myself." This storyline could have provided some of the most tense buildup and most most satisfying payoff of the series. Instead, we have tepid milktoast that is almost inedible. At last Mat's storyline seems to be heating up, and we have more Egwene/Rand to look forward to.

 

I think we're supposed to feel annoyed with Perrin. While this chapter was a Perrin POV, we're really supposed to see him through Faile's eyes and she's about ready to clobber him with something blunt.

 

Having some 'real' problems for Perrin and Faile to work through would have been fun to read, but not really in line with Perrin's overall character arc. His main issue is that he's practically crippled by what -isn't- real. He imagines faults in himself that aren't there; he's afraid of mistakes he hasn't made; he pretends he's only a blacksmith's apprentice given overwhelming evidence to the contrary; he's terrified of his wolf nature that he doesn't fully understand.

 

Perrin's near perfect victory at Malden actually did cause him to regress because it reinforced his belief that life is just a puzzle that, once understood, will work out perfectly. Remember how he even winced at the handful of casualties he suffered? Perrin has to realize that quite often you must act as best you can without seeing all the pieces and possibilities.

 

-- dwn

 

(Edited to fix a typo.)

Very good analysis. Really, Perrin as a character has regressed from the point he was at in TDR. It seemed to us like out of all the characters, he was the most accepting of his fate and would do his duty. Unfortunately, that acceptance appeared to only be real if he didn't have to take the mantle of leadership. Perrin doesn't want to be responsible for anyone but himself. In a way it stinks, because Perrin used to be really fun to read, but since WH he has been agonizing to read.

[DPT24]

I don't really think Perrin's problems are much worse than any of the other characters, it's just they're delivered without the comedy of mat, or the bad*** of Rand, and are not helped by his deliberate nature and ability to smell how people feel. can you imagine if Mat smelled how Tuon felt about him? Or if Rand could smell how Avi felt about him in TSR??? Yeah... it wouldn't be good.

 

The only thing I wonder about is the significance of Perrin's group. Honestly, I expected them to have been involved with Elayne's Succession, and they weren't, so what's the point? I mean, the Light has the Aiel, Carahien,Band of the Red Hand, Andor, Tear, Illian, Arad Doman, and the Borderlanders (maybe), plus the White Tower and some Ash'aman. And depending on what happens with the Seanchan, they have all of them, too. So... what does Perrin's group bring to the table??? Even with the wolves too??? Same with the WhiteCloaks. It seems to me either A. a major force of darkfriends or armies led by darkfriends is going to appear somewhere, and likely stab the Light in the back, which will be unguarded except for Perrin's force and the WhiteCloaks. And/or Massive trolloc armies transported through the Ways. That, or here's a thought, what if the Borderland armies are (somehow) completely turned to the shadow??? That, or it's the Saharans/Seanchan/Isle of Madmen...

[Terez]

Battle of Caemlyn. Seanchan vs Severed Band, with Perrin outside the siege? Lots of possibilities.