Questioning the Shadow

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

I was thinking.. Why wouldn't the shadow have their own stock piles or angreal, sa'angreal, ter'angreal and the like stored away? I mean The white tower has been collecting them for ages why wouldn't darkfriends be doing the same? Also with the black ajah in the white tower wide spread for such a fair while why didn't they steal items of the one power over a period of time? why did they wait and steal a bunch only when asked to?

 

Also why dont the forsaken use balefire when attacking Rand? i mean he's used it often enough now to assume that he'll continue to use it when they face him why do they continue to mess around with him in terms of trying to trap or turn him? Hasn't it been said that if he died the Dark one would just bring him back?

[Magnetic Zero]

The white tower has been collecting them for ages why wouldn't darkfriends be doing the same?

 

Regular DFs have no way of knowing whether or not an object is an *angreal. They have no way of finding any that are not already in the possession as a group such as the White Tower or the High Lords of Tear.

 

Also with the black ajah in the white tower wide spread for such a fair while why didn't they steal items of the one power over a period of time?

 

The *angreal in the Tower are extremely well-guarded for the most part. They are all catalogued quite neatly. When the Aes Sedai who fled the Tower near the beginning of the series stole a bunch of *angreal on their way out, they didn't do it in style just because they wanted to prove they were evil. They were caught and had to escape. For an organization that wants to keep its identity and very existence a secret, doing things as obvious as stealing *angreal is not a very good idea. They could conceivably attempt to place the blame on other sisters or something of the sort, but there's no way to ensure success there, and again, they wanted to remain secret.

 

Also why dont the forsaken use balefire when attacking Rand?

 

I believe Rahvin did just that when he was being chased by Rand through the palace of Caemlyn.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

Surely though Black ajah sisters could leave the white tower and search out these items and not have them cataloged? Whats to stop black sisters from just stashing them away and not keeping them at the tower? Also among all the positions at the tower you would think looking after the objects of the one power would have definitely been near the top the list for them to try and occupy?

[Magnetic Zero]

you would think looking after the objects of the one power would have definitely been near the top the list for them to try and occupy?

 

Evidently not.

[chuckievi]

Surely though Black ajah sisters could leave the white tower and search out these items and not have them cataloged? Whats to stop black sisters from just stashing them away and not keeping them at the tower? Also among all the positions at the tower you would think looking after the objects of the one power would have definitely been near the top the list for them to try and occupy?

 

Well it seems that at a minimum a fair amount of BA joined for power and political reasons within the tower, not because they wanted to pave the way for the DO to break out. We have seen evidence of that in the books where Sheriam says something to the effect of, why did he have to pick now to try to break out? So what I am saying is that while it makes perfect sense for them to be seeking out *angreal and arming themselves accordingly, the BA isn't exactly a smooth operating military organization. I agree they should have been doing that, but ultimately they are a group of very self-centered people who don't necessarily want to sacrifice their own time or lives to help the cause so to speak.

[LazyMonk]

Also why dont the forsaken use balefire when attacking Rand? i mean he's used it often enough now to assume that he'll continue to use it when they face him why do they continue to mess around with him in terms of trying to trap or turn him? Hasn't it been said that if he died the Dark one would just bring him back?

Being 'burned out of the pattern' by Balefire places you beyond the DO's control, I believe they're ordered not to do that (though the DO's orders are anything but clear).

Also, they're just too arrogant for that, they believe in their own superiority, despite evidence to the contrary. although, Ishy did resort to it in the Stone of Tear when Rand was wielding Calandor.

[Barid Bel Medar]

was thinking..

 

Now this may sound offensive, but bear with me here.

 

Thats the whole problem, you were thinking.

 

The war isnt being played how we think it is. (As per Verin's comment in tDR)

 

The DO is not human, he does not think like a human, cannot be understood by humans.

 

The DO isnt playing with brute channeling force, his game is something else. Like we see in tGS, with Rand turning. With "sowing Chaos" and turning the forces of light against each other.

 

It is not as simple as "oh they could have stole all this stuff and used it to blast the crap out of everything."

[Baletickle_to_da_face!]

What everyone else has said makes a good deal of sense. Also consider that Rhuidean, The Stone of Tear, and The White Tower are some of the oldest strongholds built relitively soon after the Breaking, and they all have thier own stockpile of items of the Power.

 

To me it would make sense that decades after the Breaking and Ishy finally locked up for a 1,000 years, that inbetween that time the Shadow's forces would not have been particularly organized. Not unified enough to carry out a mission to round up all the items of power laying about. On the other hand, the populous as a whole probably would have the mindset post-Breaking at an almost subconcious level to gather up all the items of Power and contain them in places like the White Tower(for supervised use), Tear(to make sure they are never used again), or Rhudean(tradition required they be protected).

 

It's possible that if the BA even got the idea to gather up items of the Power by the time they did there was literally just scraps to pick over. Obviously by the time the books have started this is the case, as we have Sammy drooling over a cache in Ebou Dar that, from the sound of it, doesn't exactly dwarf the big three we know about.

[OptimusPrime]

Surely though Black ajah sisters could leave the white tower and search out these items and not have them cataloged? Whats to stop black sisters from just stashing them away and not keeping them at the tower? Also among all the positions at the tower you would think looking after the objects of the one power would have definitely been near the top the list for them to try and occupy?

 

Do you remember in TGS when Siuan said to Egwene it almost seemed as if the Pattern had guided her (Suian) towards the position as Amyrlin Seat? I took that as a nice little hint that Siuan has been Ta'veren before. And considering that she was involved in the real deal, searching for the Dragon Reborn, I think its entirely possible that the Black Ajahs evident incapability is not all their fault, what with her also having been involved in hunting the Black Ajah.

 

What better person for the Pattern to raise as a Ta'veren than someone like Suian, an Amyrlin raised from the Blue Ajah, who would be dedicated to finding the Dragon Reborn? If this was true, and that Suian had been Ta'veren, I think it also entirely possible that when the Dragon was Reborn, the Wheel would inevitably know this even before he became Ta'veren and would have other Ta'veren, like Suian, begin sliding things into place via the tamaralellagram thingy of the Ta'veren, you know, their affect on other threads that can spread through the Pattern and whatnot? What I think happened is that Suian became Ta'veren when the Dragon had been reborn, and that her tamaralellagram made Moiraine and Lan a homing device that would find the Dragon Reborn via his own Ta'verenism when it became activated.

 

I am beginning to think that Ta'verenism in general is the ability to affect the Pattern with their will.

[Magnetic Zero]

Being 'burned out of the pattern' by Balefire places you beyond the DO's control, I believe they're ordered not to do that (though the DO's orders are anything but clear).

 

Being hit by balefire does not necessarily put you out of the Great Lord's reach.

 

The strength of the balefire determines how much of a given thread is burned. A tiny amount of balefire does not completely remove a thread from the pattern, but a mere few seconds.

 

When a person dies, there is a window of opportunity for the Great Lord wherein he can decide to take the soul and migrate it into a new body or not. A few seconds is within that window of opportunity. Just how big the window is, is unclear. But the Great Lord is not suddenly unable to bring back someone who has been killed with balefire.

 

See Be'lal.

 

If you did not mean to say that being balefired would remove you from the Great Lord's grasp instantaneously, then just ignore this post.

[Sagacious Lu]

Being 'burned out of the pattern' by Balefire places you beyond the DO's control, I believe they're ordered not to do that (though the DO's orders are anything but clear).

 

Being hit by balefire does not necessarily put you out of the Great Lord's reach.

 

The strength of the balefire determines how much of a given thread is burned. A tiny amount of balefire does not completely remove a thread from the pattern, but a mere few seconds.

 

When a person dies, there is a window of opportunity for the Great Lord wherein he can decide to take the soul and migrate it into a new body or not. A few seconds is within that window of opportunity. Just how big the window is, is unclear. But the Great Lord is not suddenly unable to bring back someone who has been killed with balefire.

 

See Be'lal.

 

If you did not mean to say that being balefired would remove you from the Great Lord's grasp instantaneously, then just ignore this post.

 

Be'lal didn't come back after Mo balefired him.

[Magnetic Zero]

You're right, I was thinking of Balthamel. I always confuse 'em. And he was not balefired.

 

In support of my point:

 

Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

 

There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.

 

Taken from: http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

was thinking..

 

Now this may sound offensive, but bear with me here.

 

Thats the whole problem, you were thinking.

 

The war isnt being played how we think it is. (As per Verin's comment in tDR)

 

The DO is not human, he does not think like a human, cannot be understood by humans.

 

The DO isnt playing with brute channeling force, his game is something else. Like we see in tGS, with Rand turning. With "sowing Chaos" and turning the forces of light against each other.

 

It is not as simple as "oh they could have stole all this stuff and used it to blast the crap out of everything."

 

lol, no offense taken :D i kinda was thinking at some ridiculous hour in the morning so.. yeah.

I can see what everyone is saying now and im tending to agree, i hope there is a BA PoV sometime soon just to see what they are upto now they got their asses kicked.

[yoniy0]

i hope there is a BA PoV sometime soon just to see what they are upto now they got their asses kicked.

You're kidding, right? Off the top of my head, both Verin and Elza had PoVs. Delana did as well.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

i hope there is a BA PoV sometime soon just to see what they are upto now they got their asses kicked.

You're kidding, right? Off the top of my head, both Verin and Elza had PoVs. Delana did as well.

 

I mean post them fleeing the WT.

[yoniy0]

I mean post them fleeing the WT.

Oh, right. Sorry.

[Kaznen]

Remember that DFs are not team players. They wouldn't surrender something that could be of use to their superiors when they could use that something themselves to overthrow there superiors and become the superior themselves.

 

And we have had several examples of AS coming across a angreal or ter'angreal and not turning it over to the Hall. They keep it for themselves and after they die, well the Hall can do what it wants.

[Tom Sawyer]

 

The *angreal in the Tower are extremely well-guarded for the most part. They are all catalogued quite neatly. When the Aes Sedai who fled the Tower near the beginning of the series stole a bunch of *angreal on their way out, they didn't do it in style just because they wanted to prove they were evil. They were caught and had to escape. For an organization that wants to keep its identity and very existence a secret, doing things as obvious as stealing *angreal is not a very good idea. They could conceivably attempt to place the blame on other sisters or something of the sort, but there's no way to ensure success there, and again, they wanted to remain secret.

 

What do you mean they're extremely well guarded? During the Seanchan attack, Egwene bamfed into the room and grabbed a bunch of them without any problem. If this wand that she got is the most powerful sa'angreal there, why didn't one of the Forsaken do that? Turn a rock into a replica of it and no one would notice. They've all been moaning about not being able to find any angreal and yet all (well, the female ones anyways) have instant access to a huge stock of them. It just seems wierd that they didn't pick any up.

[Durinax]

 

The *angreal in the Tower are extremely well-guarded for the most part. They are all catalogued quite neatly. When the Aes Sedai who fled the Tower near the beginning of the series stole a bunch of *angreal on their way out, they didn't do it in style just because they wanted to prove they were evil. They were caught and had to escape. For an organization that wants to keep its identity and very existence a secret, doing things as obvious as stealing *angreal is not a very good idea. They could conceivably attempt to place the blame on other sisters or something of the sort, but there's no way to ensure success there, and again, they wanted to remain secret.

 

What do you mean they're extremely well guarded? During the Seanchan attack, Egwene bamfed into the room and grabbed a bunch of them without any problem. If this wand that she got is the most powerful sa'angreal there, why didn't one of the Forsaken do that? Turn a rock into a replica of it and no one would notice. They've all been moaning about not being able to find any angreal and yet all (well, the female ones anyways) have instant access to a huge stock of them. It just seems wierd that they didn't pick any up.

they are warded to give alarm, and during the attack alarms where going off all over the place so paying attention to that ward. So it is understandable that forsaken didnt seize it before. although I think we may see mesaana with a few angreal now since she may have seized the opportunity

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

The *angreal in the Tower are extremely well-guarded for the most part. They are all catalogued quite neatly. When the Aes Sedai who fled the Tower near the beginning of the series stole a bunch of *angreal on their way out, they didn't do it in style just because they wanted to prove they were evil. They were caught and had to escape. For an organization that wants to keep its identity and very existence a secret, doing things as obvious as stealing *angreal is not a very good idea. They could conceivably attempt to place the blame on other sisters or something of the sort, but there's no way to ensure success there, and again, they wanted to remain secret.

 

What do you mean they're extremely well guarded? During the Seanchan attack, Egwene bamfed into the room and grabbed a bunch of them without any problem. If this wand that she got is the most powerful sa'angreal there, why didn't one of the Forsaken do that? Turn a rock into a replica of it and no one would notice. They've all been moaning about not being able to find any angreal and yet all (well, the female ones anyways) have instant access to a huge stock of them. It just seems wierd that they didn't pick any up.

they are warded to give alarm, and during the attack alarms where going off all over the place so paying attention to that ward. So it is understandable that forsaken didnt seize it before. although I think we may see mesaana with a few angreal now since she may have seized the opportunity

 

Also, the wards were made before Travelling was rediscovered. Along with all of the other miracles of the power that are being rediscovered (by the Rebels, not Tower AS) and as Durinax said, the fact the Tower (the White Tower!!! Impossible!! the AS would say) was besiged by a bunch of crazy channeler-leashing Seanchan, I dont think many were thinking about the angreal wards. They were more concerned about... you know... not dying or being leashed like a dog.

[Tom Sawyer]

 

they are warded to give alarm, and during the attack alarms where going off all over the place so paying attention to that ward. So it is understandable that forsaken didnt seize it before. although I think we may see mesaana with a few angreal now since she may have seized the opportunity

 

So it gives off an alarm. Big deal. By the time someone walks down a hall and checks to see what's going on, they're a thousand miles away. Why would they care that a bunch of Aes Sedai are searching for the angreal in a tower on the other side of the continent from them? Why would Mesaana care that they're looking for a thief in the basement when she's already upstairs on a balcony? She can hide an angreal for better than they can look for it, so she could leave it lying around in her room while the place is torn apart searching for it and not have to worry at all. I just don't see what their concern with these alarms would be.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

 

they are warded to give alarm, and during the attack alarms where going off all over the place so paying attention to that ward. So it is understandable that forsaken didnt seize it before. although I think we may see mesaana with a few angreal now since she may have seized the opportunity

 

So it gives off an alarm. Big deal. By the time someone walks down a hall and checks to see what's going on, they're a thousand miles away. Why would they care that a bunch of Aes Sedai are searching for the angreal in a tower on the other side of the continent from them? Why would Mesaana care that they're looking for a thief in the basement when she's already upstairs on a balcony? She can hide an angreal for better than they can look for it, so she could leave it lying around in her room while the place is torn apart searching for it and not have to worry at all. I just don't see what their concern with these alarms would be.

 

Not to mention im sure Mesaana could have disabled the wards anyway considering that even Cadsuane wasn't surprised her wards failed when she had the leash.