poor verin, question

[Darian]

I first began to have suspicions about verin after she told matt and perrin that moiraine sent her to them, and later moiraine denies out right; were there other instances where verin might have gave her self away?

[Baletickle_to_da_face!]

I first began to have suspicions about verin after she told matt and perrin that moiraine sent her to them, and later moiraine denies out right; were there other instances where verin might have gave her self away?

 

Verin was a long time enigma. It's almost sad to see "Very Old Verin" be laid to rest permenently. I am not encyclopidic like others around here, but off the top of my head the scene in Path of Daggers(I beleive) where she compulses the Aes Sedai was pretty suspicious. That's a line that not too many non-Dark Aes Sedai cross.

 

That said, Verin remained mysterious without ever being too obvious. As much as I am sure a lot of people would like to say that they saw the relitively simple "Snape" move coming, I remember very few, if any, actually getting even most of Verin's bag of tricks right. I myself always thought "The Lie" was explainable through Aes Sedai stretching of understanding "truth". I am damn impressed that Jordan was planning it all the way from the beginning. Perfect example of why this series is so great.

[Luckers]

Yes, the incidences are called Verinisms--though they cover more than just her being Black. Off the top of my head... (read in light of how they may be interesting given her apparent ability to lie).

 

1. Verin, playing the fool, scares Moiraine and Siuan about Rand, suggesting that they gentle him and goes 'oh wait, we can't do that' (essentially she was heading off the posibility by rasing it before they could).

 

2. Verin tells Rand he shouldn't channel in Falme because the damane would detect him (we still don't have an answer to this, though Brandon brought it up in tGS so here is for hoping).

 

3. Verin doesn't say anything about Luc (though she knows who he is).

 

4. Verin warns Perrin to be careful with Alanna (because she was considering bonding him--Faile stopped this from occuring).

 

5. Verin induces Demira and the Salidar embassy into the disasterous confrontation with Rand, driving a wedge between them (part of ensuring Aes Sedai didn't end up in control of Rand, which we can all agree was a pretty good thing--this ties into the following).

 

6. Verin compels the captured Aes Sedai to serve Rand (actually this entire scene in the tPoD prologue is a giant Verinism--I suggest re-reading it in general).

 

7. Verin considers poisoning Cadsuane, and stops when Cadsuane reveals her intention to truly help Rand.

 

8. Verin thinks capturing Graendal would be very helpful.

 

 

Beyond that, there are also references in the series to her seventy year mission, and that her last big mistake was seventy years ago.

 

Also there is a new Verinism in tGS in that she suggests that her warder, Tomas, had to die within an hour of their respective betrayal in order to allow it (as per the Oath). Tomas was under no such Oath, and did not need to die, so her implication is very odd.

 

 

Did I miss any? I don't have access to my notes.

[Demiandre]

Just want to point that she is under a warrant in Far Madding. And that she considered giving Egwene Corianin Nedeal's note, but didn't.

 

And she is more versed in Prophecies than many. She guessed who the Wolfking was, she guessed the Watchers over the Weave were in Falme. She might know some of the Dark Prophecies as well.

[dovien]

This is why I love Verin. Even when everything has been revealed, she's still cloaked to her toenails in secrets.

[Sharaman]

She nearly married Eadwyn and settled down in Far Madding (where she, Caddy and Romanda all hail from).

She studied Ta'veren carefully.

She's brilliant with ciphers.

Mesaana met her twice early on for some reason. What reason?

She set several plans in motion before off-ing herself. We've only seen one (Mat).

She rooted around in the Tower storerooms and failed to find the oath rod. Did she also fiddle with the Horn of Valere?

A Darkfriend once told her smile reminded him of his dear dead mother and the last thing he saw was her smile as she killed him.

In all, a most entertaining personage.

[Luckers]

Corianin's notes! How could I forget that--my favourite of all the Verinisms.

 

My pet theory is that they contained dreams about TG, and specifically the dangers Aes Sedai idiocy could pose to the success of the Light. It makes sense, not only with everything Verin does, but also with her considering showing Egwene, but choosing not to.

[Dream]

I've never given much thought to the interactions between Verin and Ingtar but knowing now that they are both Dark, I see their interactions in a new ... um ... light.

[NetSlider]

 

4. Verin warns Perrin to be careful with Alanna (because she was considering bonding him--Faile stopped this from occuring).

 

 

We don't really know that - it's only a speculation that that was the reason why Verin warned Perrin. Alanna might be still a very big mystery. That's right, I'm picking a fight with the Lord of Awesome

[Gor]

Also there is a new Verinism in tGS in that she suggests that her warder, Tomas, had to die within an hour of their respective betrayal in order to allow it (as per the Oath). Tomas was under no such Oath, and did not need to die, so her implication is very odd.

I probably missed something but how do we know that Tomas didn't take an oath to serve the DO?

[Luckers]

 

4. Verin warns Perrin to be careful with Alanna (because she was considering bonding him--Faile stopped this from occuring).

 

 

We don't really know that - it's only a speculation that that was the reason why Verin warned Perrin. Alanna might be still a very big mystery. That's right, I'm picking a fight with the Lord of Awesome

 

Yeah...

 

"They all should have been bonded at the first chance. They are too important to run loose, him most of all." Color blossomed suddenly in [Alanna's] cheeks; it would be a good while yet before she had full control of her emotions again.

 

Verin knew what caused the blushes; Alanna had let her tongue run away with her. They had had Perrin under their eyes for long weeks while testing young women in the Two Rivers, but Alanna had quickly gone silent on the subject of bonding him. The reason was as simple as a heated promise from Faile—delivered well out of Perrin's hearing—that if Alanna did any such thing, she would not leave the Two Rivers alive. Had Faile known more of the bond between Aes Sedai and Gaidin, that threat would not have worked, yet her ignorance if nothing else had stayed Alanna's hand. Very likely it had been frustration over that, plus the frayed state of her nerves, that had led to what she did with Rand. Not only bonding him, but doing so without his permission. That had not been done in hundreds of years.

 

From there... a threat from Alanna to Perrin that Verin was aware of at the same time that Verin warned Perrin to beware Alanna... and lacking any warning from Verin to Egwene of any other sort of danger from the sister who held Rand's bond.

 

I probably missed something but how do we know that Tomas didn't take an oath to serve the DO?

 

He did--he was a darkfriend. He did not however take an a bound Oath upon a binder (the Oath Rod), thus him betraying his oath did not require the 'hour of death' issue that Verin betraying her Oath did. Thus Verin's suggestion that it did is very peculiar.

[Demiandre]

Corianin was the latest dreamer. But if so, why didn't she passed her knowledge to the hall or the Amyrlin? If those were predictions regarding TG, they would eventually be put in the 13th depository, not hidden in Verin's rooms, unknown of all sisters. Except if she was Black Ajah. In which case she would have passed them to the Black Ajah council somehow.

 

I believe that she was a dreamwalker as well as a Dreamer. A very good one. Maybe she discovered capabilities with the Power only possible in T'A'R. Something you can guess through her notes. And also information about T'A'R that will be useful to Egwene, and maybe could even be important for Perrin. He has a task to fulfill regarding T'A'R.

[Sharaman]

Corianin was the latest dreamer. But if so, why didn't she passed her knowledge to the hall or the Amyrlin? If those were predictions regarding TG, they would eventually be put in the 13th depository, not hidden in Verin's rooms, unknown of all sisters. Except if she was Black Ajah. In which case she would have passed them to the Black Ajah council somehow.

 

I believe that she was a dreamwalker as well as a Dreamer. A very good one. Maybe she discovered capabilities with the Power only possible in T'A'R. Something you can guess through her notes. And also information about T'A'R that will be useful to Egwene, and maybe could even be important for Perrin. He has a task to fulfill regarding T'A'R.

According to the Aiel WO she wasn't a particularly good dreamwalker/ dreamer. Of course, they were speaking from received knowledge since none of them had been around in her time. I'd suspect there was information that pertained to the BA or the GLoD and Verin thought upon consideration, that she couldn't let it go to Egwene without breaking her "last hour" oath. If Coreanin was herself BA, that would also explain why she had secreted her notes away because she too couldn;t betray the order or the GLoD.

Maybe this is RAFO - if it features again in the narrative.

[NetSlider]

4. Verin warns Perrin to be careful with Alanna (because she was considering bonding him--Faile stopped this from occuring).

 

 

We don't really know that - it's only a speculation that that was the reason why Verin warned Perrin. Alanna might be still a very big mystery. That's right, I'm picking a fight with the Lord of Awesome

 

Yeah...

 

"They all should have been bonded at the first chance. They are too important to run loose, him most of all." Color blossomed suddenly in [Alanna's] cheeks; it would be a good while yet before she had full control of her emotions again.

 

Verin knew what caused the blushes; Alanna had let her tongue run away with her. They had had Perrin under their eyes for long weeks while testing young women in the Two Rivers, but Alanna had quickly gone silent on the subject of bonding him. The reason was as simple as a heated promise from Faile—delivered well out of Perrin's hearing—that if Alanna did any such thing, she would not leave the Two Rivers alive. Had Faile known more of the bond between Aes Sedai and Gaidin, that threat would not have worked, yet her ignorance if nothing else had stayed Alanna's hand. Very likely it had been frustration over that, plus the frayed state of her nerves, that had led to what she did with Rand. Not only bonding him, but doing so without his permission. That had not been done in hundreds of years.

 

From there... a threat from Alanna to Perrin that Verin was aware of at the same time that Verin warned Perrin to beware Alanna... and lacking any warning from Verin to Egwene of any other sort of danger from the sister who held Rand's bond.

 

I probably missed something but how do we know that Tomas didn't take an oath to serve the DO?

 

He did--he was a darkfriend. He did not however take an a bound Oath upon a binder (the Oath Rod), thus him betraying his oath did not require the 'hour of death' issue that Verin betraying her Oath did. Thus Verin's suggestion that it did is very peculiar.

 

I know about this argument, but I still think that Verin's warning was not just regarding bonding (if about it at all). Alanna is a shady character and I know that makes me a part of the crazy group, but I think that she's black (without getting into that whole discussion). That's why i said what i did . Am I wrong? I think i'm not, but than who can say they were not feeling that they were right (like, really, really right) and than ended up completely wrong. My point was that it was never made clear and the whole interaction of Verin and Alanna in TR at that time was not explained from the RJ's lips (or if it had I did not see it anywhere). That's why I said it's a speculation b/c it is not in stone (unless, once again, there is a quote i don't know about). Logically, you are right about Faile making her move on the bonding subject, but than there is the whole other side of - did Verin warn Perry just about the bonding?

[Duskfire]

I was suspicious of Verin, but at the same time everything she did could still be explained under the Three Oaths, as long as one is crafty enough. Elaida is another who manages to get around the Three Oaths numerous times, and we know she isn't black, just deranged.

 

What really threw me off was when we got Verins point of view and how she was voicing things in a way so she was telling half truths but still wasnt breaking the Oaths. Thats what convinced me she was still a normal Aes Sedai. It seems like she tried to operate under the three oaths even when she wasn't, like Elayne and Nynaeve.

[Hadilmir]

He did--he was a darkfriend. He did not however take an a bound Oath upon a binder (the Oath Rod), thus him betraying his oath did not require the 'hour of death' issue that Verin betraying her Oath did. Thus Verin's suggestion that it did is very peculiar.

 

I took this as Tomas would commit suicide when he felt Verin die. It wouldn't fit with the redemption theme for her to release him and so he'll drink a quicker poison when the bond snaps to make sure that he doesn't really experience the warder death rage.

[Gaidzag]

He did--he was a darkfriend. He did not however take an a bound Oath upon a binder (the Oath Rod), thus him betraying his oath did not require the 'hour of death' issue that Verin betraying her Oath did. Thus Verin's suggestion that it did is very peculiar.

 

I took this as Tomas would commit suicide when he felt Verin die. It wouldn't fit with the redemption theme for her to release him and so he'll drink a quicker poison when the bond snaps to make sure that he doesn't really experience the warder death rage.

 

We don't really have any idea what kind of Oaths Darkfriends take--or how they are enforced/imprinted, so it is entirely possible that Tomas did make some kind of Oath equivalent to Verin's that would in fact require his death within an hour of relevation. It could be something as simple as Compulsion. Or the TP. As Rick James said, "True Power is a helluva drug."

[Luckers]

He did--he was a darkfriend. He did not however take an a bound Oath upon a binder (the Oath Rod), thus him betraying his oath did not require the 'hour of death' issue that Verin betraying her Oath did. Thus Verin's suggestion that it did is very peculiar.

 

I took this as Tomas would commit suicide when he felt Verin die. It wouldn't fit with the redemption theme for her to release him and so he'll drink a quicker poison when the bond snaps to make sure that he doesn't really experience the warder death rage.

 

If its as simple as him wanting to avoid the Death Rage, Verin would have just let go of the bond.

[Mik]

Did I miss any? I don't have access to my notes.

 

"Lord Luc" (Slayer) realising Verin is Black Ajah, by seeing the secret hand-sign. We find out much later this Black Ajah hand-signal exists from Delana meeting Aran'gar for the first time (LoC,Ch30):

At his first glimpse of Verin’s smooth-cheeked face, Luc stiffened slightly, eyes flickering to her hands so quickly many would not have noticed. He very nearly dropped his embroidered gloves. Plump and plainly dressed, she might have been another farm wife, but clearly he knew an Aes Sedai’s ageless face, when he saw one. He was not particularly happy to see one here. The corner of his left eye twitched as he listened to Mistress al’Seen name “Mistress Mathwin” “a scholar from outside”.

Verin smiled at him as if half-asleep. “A pleasure,” she murmured. “House Chiendelna. Where is that? It has a Borderland sound.”

“Nothing so grand,” Luc replied quickly, giving her a wary, fractional bow.

[Sharaman]

Did I miss any? I don't have access to my notes.

 

"Lord Luc" (Slayer) realising Verin is Black Ajah, by seeing the secret hand-sign. We find out much later this Black Ajah hand-signal exists from Delana meeting Aran'gar for the first time (LoC,Ch30):

At his first glimpse of Verin’s smooth-cheeked face, Luc stiffened slightly, eyes flickering to her hands so quickly many would not have noticed. He very nearly dropped his embroidered gloves. Plump and plainly dressed, she might have been another farm wife, but clearly he knew an Aes Sedai’s ageless face, when he saw one. He was not particularly happy to see one here. The corner of his left eye twitched as he listened to Mistress al’Seen name “Mistress Mathwin” “a scholar from outside”.

Verin smiled at him as if half-asleep. “A pleasure,” she murmured. “House Chiendelna. Where is that? It has a Borderland sound.”

“Nothing so grand,” Luc replied quickly, giving her a wary, fractional bow.

 

He was looking for the great serpent ring. Anybody who knows the ageless face would instinctively look for that as confirmation.

[Demiandre]

They have to have a sign to recognize themselves when needed. When two have to meet, you have to be sure it is the good one you're about to talk to.

 

I stumbled across a possible foreshadowing, but I'm sure I'm just reading too much into words.

Moiraine's advice was in the front of his head. Trust no woman who wore the shawl on the day she died

 

That was Rand thinking about what Verin just said about the possibility of the Salidar Aes Sedai meeting him. He was thinking about her. And that happened just before Alanna bonded him. So. Could this be to indicate, under cover of a incongruous warning from Moiraine, that Verin was not to be trusted even the day she died? I strongly believe that Verin was honnest when speaking about the Black Ajah, but maybe she lied about Tomas, as Luckers seems to think. And me as well, for that matter. A bit odd that he shall die too, in my humble opinion.

[Nooska]

They have to have a sign to recognize themselves when needed. When two have to meet, you have to be sure it is the good one you're about to talk to.

 

I stumbled across a possible foreshadowing, but I'm sure I'm just reading too much into words.

Moiraine's advice was in the front of his head. Trust no woman who wore the shawl on the day she died

 

That was Rand thinking about what Verin just said about the possibility of the Salidar Aes Sedai meeting him. He was thinking about her. And that happened just before Alanna bonded him. So. Could this be to indicate, under cover of a incongruous warning from Moiraine, that Verin was not to be trusted even the day she died? I strongly believe that Verin was honnest when speaking about the Black Ajah, but maybe she lied about Tomas, as Luckers seems to think. And me as well, for that matter. A bit odd that he shall die too, in my humble opinion.

It's hard to tell without the direct quote from Moiraine, but it seems more logical (and simple *waves the razor*) that Moi meant to not trust any woman that "wore the shawl" i.e. were Aes Sedai, on the day Moiraine died. To give any sort of veiled warning about the BA death and lieing even then, Moi would have to know of that oath, and the only reasonable way she would know this would be if she was BA - which we know for a fact that she wasn't - don't we?.

[Hadilmir]

If its as simple as him wanting to avoid the Death Rage, Verin would have just let go of the bond.

 

Unless Tomas wanted to die at the same time. I don't think he would ask to be released, it seems fitting that he'd try to die at the same time as Verin, who brought him to the Light. It's just opinion though.

[Luckers]

If its as simple as him wanting to avoid the Death Rage, Verin would have just let go of the bond.

 

Unless Tomas wanted to die at the same time. I don't think he would ask to be released, it seems fitting that he'd try to die at the same time as Verin, who brought him to the Light. It's just opinion though.

 

I think that should she have been speaking the truth, and Tomas went to spend his last hour with family, that she would have released the bond--I mean would you want to go into an insane death rage around your family?

 

Beside, Tomas was no coward--he wouldn't simply kill himself just because things were going to get difficult now Verin was gone. He would have if it achieved an end, but there is no percievable gain to him doing so.

 

Verin had things she needed to get done, things she was striving to survive to herself--that she wouldn't employ Tomas to do some of them is very strange.

[didymos]

If its as simple as him wanting to avoid the Death Rage, Verin would have just let go of the bond.

 

Agreed, but consider some questions (and answers):

 

Just how long do you think it'd be before someone came looking for him after Verin's death and the subsequent gutting of the BA that resulted?

 

Answer: Not very long at all.

 

Just what do you think he'd spend his time doing if freed from the bond?

 

Answer: Being constantly on the run and in hiding while praying his DF superiors or one of the Forsaken never, ever got a hold of him.

 

And just how succesful do you think he'd be at that, given what we've seen of how easy it is for disfavored DF's to be hunted down by the Shadow?

 

Answer: Most likely, not successful at all.

 

And just how painful do you think the punitive death following his pretty much inevitable capture would have been?

 

Answer: Ridiculously painful.

 

Could what he knew from his time with her still been useful?

 

Answer: Of course it could, and likely quite a lot of it was.

 

Would the Shadow have made damn sure to find that out before finally killing him?

 

Answer: You know it.

 

Would part of his punishment have been knowing of, and possibly witnessing, the horrifically cruel deaths of his non-DF family?

 

Answer: You know that too.

 

Tomas had no expectation of happily ever after, and that wasn't why he did what he did. He signed on to see Verin's mission done, and when it was, he died on his own terms, made killing the guiltless family he loved pointless, and also made sure the Shadow got nothing more from him ever again.