What's up with Taim

[menzarra]

I was reciently reading the character bios on Taim (http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/) And i read the theories there about Taim and his background. But something struck me as odd...

 

Rand kills Ishy, all other proclaimed Dragons get captured and or get debunked when this happens. Ishy is reborn as Moridin (supposedly, i think he has) Taim then escapes from the sisters killing some or all (i dont recall). How could a shielded man surrounded by sisters and warders free himself without powerful outside help like a forsaken? Its possible that Moridin freed him and made him a pet. Just like he did with Mog and New Lanfear. Moridin then teaches Taim what he needs to know and perhaps gives him a "taint blocker" so his tool doesnt become corrupted.(this is just a guess) He then sends Taim to Rand. Moridin then fully shows up in the books after this. Taim wouldnt be a DF but he has no choice but to obey his master since Moridin has his soul.

 

Perhaps his original plan was to stay near Rand to gain his trust until his master told him it was time to strike and kill Rand. But Rand being Tae'vern (spelled wrong i think) twisted it around and set Taim up where he is today. Which worked out for Moridin because now he has a bunch of trained shady ahsa'men ready to spread chaos. Ready to do the bidding of Taim who is doing the bidding of Moridin.

 

Just a theory. :)

 

 

We know Moridin has 2 of those soul gems, 1 is Mog but the other is really unknown. Its been assumed that its Lanfear's since her new name is Last Chance and shes doing Moridin's bidding. But that isnt 100% proof, shes always been calculating. Perhaps shes doing this of her own free will knowing she could die forever if the DO wills it. Thats enough insentive for anyone. RJ does like to twist things into appearing what they really are not.

[Guest Majsju]

We know Moridin has 2 of those soul gems, 1 is Mog but the other is really unknown. Its been assumed that its Lanfear's since her new name is Last Chance and shes doing Moridin's bidding. But that isnt 100% proof, shes always been calculating. Perhaps shes doing this of her own free will knowing she could die forever if the DO wills it. Thats enough insentive for anyone. RJ does like to twist things into appearing what they really are not.

 

Read the chapter At The Gardens in KOD, pretty much confirms the second mindtrap is Cyndane's.

 

Strangely, he put his free hand to the breast of his coat, and Cyndane flinched. Moghedien shivered.

[...]

"No one else," Cyndane said. When he lowered his hand, she exhaled softly then took a swallow of wine. Sweat glistened on her forehead.

[menzarra]

Ive only read KoD 1 time so far... getting back up to it again. (on WH now)

 

Grasping at straws....

Perhaps she became mind trapped after failing to stop Rand when he clensed Saidin and for helping him. So now he has a 3rd or he only carried Mog's and Ceydean with him. Perhaps a a Mind Trapped male has a different appearance. Alot of guesses on my part.

 

hehe

 

While in my mind it was a good theory, as good as any really i dont fully believe Taim is a DF. Even with him saying Let the Lord of Chaos Rule. Its too obvious.

[Luckers]

The question of how Taim escaped has occured to me also. We have seen what thirteen sisters can do against non-channelers, so i find it unlikely that Taim's followers were actually able to free him. Of Channelers, i believe there are four possibilities.

 

1. The Forsaken... but would even one of the Forsaken be willing to go against thirteen Aes Sedai?

 

2. Random Black Ajah, acting on Liandrins' plan. Problem being that the Three Black Oaths seem to forbid revealing the plans of the Black Ajah, indicating therefore that Joiya was lying, and the Black Ajah never had any such plan, or perhaps that she altered the plan (adding the Taim-pretending-to-be-Rand part so that it wasn't the same plan). This is possible.

 

3. It was done subtly, by someone within the camp... this would need to be one of the Aes Sedai, or at a stretch one of the warders, and may involve poison and so forth.

 

4. Another possibility is that it was done by some of the men Taim had gathered and trained. I know he said they died or he killed them because of the taint, but if he is a darkfriend that seems unlikely to me, meaning they may have been ordered by the Shadow to free him.

[TaeaDawn]

Though' date=' I should point out that you chopped off the end of the quote:

 

Week 4 Question: At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you.

 

Alrighty.. just to point this out... but..."Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim"... does not mean he is NOT Mazrim Taim. If.. say... There was never a man named Taim and he is Demandred's creation... those words would still be true. He had never posed as Taim because he WAS him.

 

A truth as beautiful as any Aes Sedai could make it :P

 

[Diefett]

I don't have my books with me :( but I seem to recall a meeting of Forsaken where one, Greandal I think, comments to another about their school.

 

I think that the real Taim's dead, and a Forsaken took his place.

[Luckers]

Alrighty.. just to point this out... but..."Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim"... does not mean he is NOT Mazrim Taim. If.. say... There was never a man named Taim and he is Demandred's creation... those words would still be true. He had never posed as Taim because he WAS him.

 

Sorry, Taim has been present, active and known from since before Demandred was free.

 

I think that the real Taim's dead, and a Forsaken took his place.

 

This is unlikely. We know that Demandred cannot be be the one, so look at the other options.

 

Moridin - No, being Taim would curb his freedom too much, plus i dont really think it fits his personality. Also we have the Demandred/Taim/Moridin order confliction issues that cropped up. That said, we do see Taim favouring Moridin's colouring... but then he also utilizes Sammaels sigil, and utilizes several other Forsaken mannerisms that are more likely assumed from proximity, rather then genuined... at least to my mind.

 

Osan'gar - No. Dead.

 

Aran'gar - No. A woman, and with the Rebels.

 

They are the only remaining male forsaken. No, i dont think Taim is a Forsaken.

[Trib4l]

What are people's thoughts on Taim being turned during the period that he "disappeared" in Saldaea?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Everybody keeps assuming that the Forsaken only become free when we meet them. Realities, even fictional ones, still require lead time. They have to get acclimated. Soak up the local language and culture. Learn enough so that they don't trip over their own feet the first time they have to interact in the world.

 

So, we really don't know, and have no way to know, precisely when any single Forsaken became free again.

 

I think too much is made of red/black, and gauntleted fist symbology. Those have been martial colors and and martial symbols in many human societies over time as well. Taim is building a martial society of channelers. There is nothing particularly strange or sinister in employing martial colors and sysmbols in that context.

 

Taim may very well be Dark. We have more than enough hints pointing us in that direction. But, hints aren't proof. And, so far we lack real proof.

 

He could want Rand dead for any number of his own very personal reasons having nothing to do with the DO, or any Forsaken. If/when AMoL gets published, we'll learn, without doubt, who and what Taim really is. Until then, we're all just spitting in the wind.

[Luckers]

Actually, no, WE do know when the Forsaken escaped. We've explained it to you before, but you didn't listen.

[Bob T Dwarf]

No, Luckers, you don't "know." You're simply willing to accept the first simple explanation that presents itself.

 

These are rather ordinary people who simply possess a Talent. They are not gods springing full grown from the brow of Zeus.

 

They have to wake up. They have to remember to breathe in and out again. They have to relearn how to move; to make their fingers and toes work. They have to regain the strength they've lost after 3000 years of confinement. They have to learn the language and the customs. All of that takes time. Then they have to plan what they're going to do and where they're going to go. All of that before they can reenter the world.

 

So, no, we really have no idea. Neither when they awoke nor when they actually first reentered the world. All we know is when we first encounter them in their present guises.

[WarkWark]

Is it possible that Taim is just already insane, but instead of going "No TV, No Beer, Make Homer go something something" insane, he just thinks much higher of himself then he should. Or maybe he sold his soul to heal his insanity, We know that it is possible because of Moridin and LTT in book 1.

[Thor]

I am sure that Taim is a DF/dreadlord. And I am almost certainly sure that Logain will beat him to a pulp.

 

As for Taim taking on forsaken manarisms (sp?), that's just because he is unconsciously trying to remind himself that he is as good as any of them.

[KaptainKaos]

Just so that everyone knows Jordan has also been quoted as saying something along the lines that the person that Demandred is working through or posing as is not someone that has been visibly introduced through any point of view.

[Alia]

Honestly, the fact that Taim says "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" or something to that effect (darn college and tiredness and not having my book to have exact quote) makes it obvious that he is, or SHOULD BE a Darkfriend. How high a DF is up to debate (obviously) but that he is a df is not really an issue. I mean, I like coincidences just as much as anyone else, but...the number of times Taim has done something is a lil much for coincidence.

 

But, then, yes, RJ could pull one over on us...

[drak_Morgan]

Hey!!!

 

I always thought it was Demandred.

Now, after reading all your analysis I have No Idea.

It was almost written in stone in my mind, and now, so much doubt........

well once i get through KOD again i'll start over.....

:( at GH because i bought a stupid paperback.......

i freekin hate them, they are poo.

fallin apart and loosing pages after one read....

 

sorry thats another topic

[Luckers]

Bob. Aginor and Balthamel were the first to awaken aside from Ishy. They woke and came straight to the Eye of the World. Ergo, prior to that, the other Forsaken were not free. Oh, but thats right, i forgot, your the author of this series and feel free to rewrite it whenever you disagree.

 

We know.

[Bob T Dwarf]

No. Jordan has said that Aginor and Balthamel were the first to become free since they were the closest to "the surface."

 

Everybody assumes that, since they are the first ones we meet in-the-flesh, that they just awoke.

 

First of all, one thing does not imply the other. They could have been awake and doing any number of other things for years. They could have been assembling the clues, along with a good enough picture of the present geography to figure out where The Eye of the World was most likely to be found in the here-and-now. Additionally, them having just awakened while also being the first to do so does not work out for the timelines of other Forsaken. Semirhage is the most glaring example of that. She was already established in Seanchan and had been appointed Tuon's new Truthspeaker at about the time EotW begins. Possibly even slightly earlier.

 

In short, they could not have just awakened when we meet them.

 

It's called "backstory", Luckers. Every character in fiction has one. Sometimes as the story unfolds, we learn pieces of what a character's backstory is. Mostly we don't. But, the backstory exists whether we learn what it was or not. It's the stuff the author chooses not to include in the interest of concentrating on more immediately interesting material.

[algspkr]

No. Jordan has said that Aginor and Balthamel were the first to become free since they were the closest to "the surface."

 

Everybody assumes that, since they are the first ones we meet in-the-flesh, that they just awoke.

 

First of all, one thing does not imply the other. They could have been awake and doing any number of other things for years. They could have been assembling the clues, along with a good enough picture of the present geography to figure out where The Eye of the World was most likely to be found in the here-and-now.

There was no Eye before they were imprisoned, had there imprisonment been normal like the others, excluding Ishmael, they would not have known of its existance upon awakening. Thier imprisonment at the edge of the seal allowed them to watch the present age form their prison, absorbing events, and the language (this was stated by RJ, but I cannot find the quote if someone would like to help me out on it)

 

If I remember correctly the conversation at the Eye implied that they had recently been freed, and the rest were still imprisoned.

Additionally, them having just awakened while also being the first to do so does not work out for the timelines of other Forsaken. Semirhage is the most glaring example of that. She was already established in Seanchan and had been appointed Tuon's new Truthspeaker at about the time EotW begins. Possibly even slightly earlier.

I thought Winter's Heart put her appearance at the same spring the rest showed up.

[Luckers]

Aginor states that only he, Ishamael, and Balthamel are free at the time of the Eye of the World. Feel free to look it up.

 

Unlike you, we base our opinion on textual evidence.

[Zacharias]

Rand HAS handled Taim and the Ashaman pretty poorly. Considering they're going to be so important at TG, you think he would have made a little bit more effort to make sure they were dedicated to him. And i think he let taim have free rein for far too long.

[Luckers]

Indeed, it's why im especially annoyed at the way he deals with Logain. Rand should be making the man loyal, not aggravating him. Logain could never challanged Rand, and yet he's treating him like a rival, which is making him a rival. Its stupid.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Trib4l -

 

Taim being forcibly turned is a possibility I hadn't considered. Jordan introduced forcible turning for some reason, so it's certainly possible that he could have been.

 

I just haven't seen any evidence to confirm that Taim might be such a case.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Luckers -

 

The passage you refer to reads thusly:

"Were bound." Aginor smiled; his yellowed teeth had the look of fangs. "Some of us are bound no longer. The seals weaken Aes Sedai. Like Ishamael we walk the world again, and soon the rest will come. I was too close to this world in my captivity, I and Balthamel, too close to the grinding of the Wheel, but soon the Great Lord of the Dark will be free, and give us new flesh, and the world will be ours once more. You will have no Lews Therin Kinslayer this time. No Lord of the Morning to save you. We know the one we seek, now, and there is no more need for the rest of you."

 

Notice that he says "some." Some typically means more than two. Had he meant two and only two, he probably would have said, "we two", or "Balthamel and I", or some such. He didn't, he used the indeterminate term "some". Some could be any number from three to eight or ten. All some really means in this context, is that not all of them are awake and about yet at the time he is speaking.

 

Deciding that "some" means only those two is called jumping to unwarranted conclusions.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, because of the context, its an entirely warranted conclusion. "Some of us are bound no longer. The seals weaken, Aes Sedai" Which ones? He continues, "Like Ishamael we walk the world again, and soon the rest will come." Who is we? Aginor and Balthamel. The "some" that are "bound no longer" are the three he references, himself (Aginor), Balthamel, and Ishamael. The "rest" who "will come" (future tense), are the other (at that time) 10 Forsaken.

 

It is very clear, given context from the events. But, you're sure to not believe it.

 

Incidentally, I'd think the man who insists that only the six people NAMED in the Palace could have killed Asmodean would likewise insist that only the three Forsaken NAMED could have been free ... but consistency is not your strong suit.