13x13 Trick

[Sharaman]

Dying to evade the "Lord of the Grave", to whom all the dead belong.

 

Seems a little...... self defeating

 

I asked Brandon whether Verin would face punishment from the Dark One beyond the grave, and he replied that it would depend on whether he could get his hands on her. This, along with other hints, suggests the Dark One's power over the dead is not as great as he would like people to believe.

Balefire itself suggests that the GLoD has a very tiny window. If Verin can get past that, she's probably ok.

[Benganza]

On a Side note, can the 13x13 effect be removed by stilling the channeler similar to the three oaths? And afterwards you can youst heal up the severing, so this whole thing just becomes a matter of finding out who got turned?

[Barid Bel Medar]

On a Side note, can the 13x13 effect be removed by stilling the channeler similar to the three oaths? And afterwards you can youst heal up the severing, so this whole thing just becomes a matter of finding out who got turned?

 

Well that is the whole point of this thread. We are unsure if it is able to be healed or not. I would say that no, it couldn't be healed that way, as, even though it requires you to channel in the first place, it warps a persons personality which is a bit more permanent than the oaths. But I am guessing on that, you could be right.

[Sharaman]

Yes, guess it's not a commutative process. Chaneller can be 13x13 but once it's done, stilling won't remove the 13x13 influence. But we don't know for sure.

[FarShainMael]

The descriptions we get from the channelers that are probably turned seem to contradict this statement from Jordan. They don't seem to be just their 'mirrors'. Curious.

 

Perhaps they've been mindtrapped, instead. (ACOS25)

 

Re Verin: I'm sure I've read somewhere that a self-sacrificing death would take you out of reach of the DO, but I can't find the reference?

[yoniy0]

Ingtar surly hoped so, and my guess that if you've seen a quote it was one about him. I don't recall seeing that, though, so if you do find it, please share

[baalsmistress]

I guess the best chance for Verin is the time lag between her death and Egwene utilising the information she gave her. If the DO has a strictly limited time, as has been implied multiple times, then the delay is probably enough that she is safe.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I am saying Verin cannot be touched by the DO because she is a HotH.

 

However, RJ has said in an interview that the DO is big on revenge. He likes punishment to serve a purpose. Admittedly it would serve great purpose to punish Verin for her betrayal, it is unique circumstances, but I doubt he would be overly eager to bring her back.

 

INTERVIEW: Apr 20th, 2004

TOR Questions of the Week Part I (Verbatim)

 

ROBERT JORDAN

The Dark One doesn't care about his minions sufficiently to invest much time in their punishment except as it serves to correct their behavior or as object lesson to others, nor is there much in the way of gradation. Simple failure and outright betrayal might be punished equally, or one might result in death and the other in becoming an object lesson or in something else. (The mindtrap, by the way, could be called an object lesson only to the one so trapped; remember, none of the Forsaken know who is mindtrapped except Moridin and those who are trapped.) The decision, death or object lesson or something else, normally would be simply a matter of whether or not he believed there was any point to an object lesson and/or whether or not he felt there was really any further use in the individual. Or, for that matter, made for reasons unknowable to a human mind. Remember, the Dark One is NOT human and thinking of him in human terms just doesn't work.

 

I doubt he would transmigrate Verin just to punish her. If it was one of the Forsaken, however, I think there might be cause to. The DO might not even be aware of the betrayal either, and it might be too late when he found out.

[yoniy0]

You know, what's to say the rules for when the DO wants to grab a soul for transmigration are the same as when he wishes to torture one? If by swearing to him you actually lose some built-in protection all souls have, perhaps your soul remains his forever as well, never to be reborn. I know Randlanders don't believe it so (Rand figures Asmodean might be reborn as a changed man), but how would they know?

[FarShainMael]

Here's a bit more on transmigration:

 

TOR Questions of the Week Part I

WEEK 3 QUESTION (MATT HATCH)

 

There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately—that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death—but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the Pattern.

 

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

 

There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.

 

That last bit is quite interesting!

 

Re Ingtar, all I could find was this:

"It was my salvation I was thinking of. I would sound the Horn, and lead the heroes of the Ages against Shayol Ghul. Surely that would have been enough to save me. No man can walk so long in the Shadow that he cannot come again into the Light. That is what they say. Surely that would have been enough to wash away what I have been, and done."

 

"Oh, Light, Ingtar." Rand released his hold on the other man and sagged back against the stable wall. "I think.. I think wanting to is enough. I think all you have to do is stop being.. one of them." Ingtar flinched as if Rand had said it out. Darkfriend.

 

Nothing conclusive, just indicative.

[bigdoug1971]

I bleieve it's permanent. Like their very "soul" has been altered. I do not think you can heal a "soul"

If the eyes are a window to the soul, and you can see the change in their eyes, then I think the damage is permanent.

 

Examples in Randland: When a person, or Ogier, is caught in the Ways, it's not possible to heal them. When a Dragkhar gets somebody in their embrace and plants their "kiss", those people cannot be healed either.

 

While wounds of the body and mind can be healed, there has never been any evidence of the ability to heal a "soul". I do like the question, but I think somebody who was turned this way is just out of luck.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I have thought about this, from all we have on the subject, I say that he does not have command over anyone's soul.

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 9th, 1996

 

ACOS Signing Report - Erica Sadun (Paraphrased)

 

He also doesn't have any power over reincarnation beyond being able (with certain limitations) to 'catch' a soul while it is on its way to the afterlife (at which point the soul is out of his reach). RJ explained this further in the TOR Questions of the Week. There's no indication that he has any power at all over the Wheel, either, though he does seem to be able to corrupt the Pattern in a way with his touch.

 

 

INTERVIEW: Sep 3rd, 2005

 

DragonCon Signing Reports - Matt Hatch (Verbatim)

 

MATT HATCH

He doesn't have access to all souls to be able to grab any soul?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

No, no, no. Because of the Bore and the fact that the bore is best perceived, the Bore doesn't really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, it's simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere, or did, and uh, that's, when you know, Rahvin died, Rahvin is balefired out of time, slain out of time, cannot be reached, gone. Be'lal, (names someone else)

.

 

INTERVIEW: Apr, 2003

Budapest Q&A (Verbatim)

 

QUESTION

I have an exiting question, maybe, we heard of making the Forsaken reborn, so has the original body any reflection to the mind of the Forsaken?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

Well, if a Forsaken dies and is reborn naturally, through the turning of the Wheel, no.

Here it suggests that even the Forsaken are reborn naturally.

 

It seems that only Gray Men have actually "given their souls" to the DO.

 

INTERVIEW: Apr, 2003

 

Budapest Q&A

(Verbatim)

The Gray Men are slightly different. But they also have given up their souls. They've given up their souls in a way. Already, their souls are gone. But it's happened in a way that protects them against this emptiness, as if they're severed from the physical and spiritual side. And the spiritual side is gone, but the physical side remains so there is an intellect in that body, but no soul. And that's why they are Gray Men.

 

Besides, supposedly the Champion of Light has gone over in the past turnings, if the DO had control over that soul, Rand would be pretty screwed.

 

I don't think that the people of Randland know this though. However, I think the term "Lord of the Grave" is a bit of an exaggeration. He seems to be able to bring people back to life, but that is only if he is able to 'catch' them before they return to the afterlife, whatever that is.

[Mhaliah]

This really comes down to the purpose of the Myddraal in the circle. The nature of a myddraal is not very well known. How do they fade? What do they do in the 13x13? etc.

 

Could this forshadow some "ter'angreal" like qualities to the Myddraal? A living ter'angreal of the shadow that allows access to the True Power of the Dark One forming a compulsion? Or is it an expression of the human stock in the Myddraal having a connection to the One Power? No myddraal are expressed as having "gender" but 13 is the most female channelors that are able to link without a male channelor. I doubt this is coincedental.

[TristanWebb]

I don't have a copy with me, but I thought the BWB says all Myrddraal are male. Might have said sterile as well, but less certain of that.

[baalsmistress]

It says "So far as it is known, all Myrddraal are male, probably sterile due to their hybrid nature, and completely lacking in individualistic expression, such as ornamentation or variations in armour or clothing." -- The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, page 99

[zerachiel76]

On a related point, does anyone think either of the "great healers" Nynaeve or Flynn will discover how to heal 13x13 in AMOL? I've already seen someone (can't remember who sorry) said they don't think they will.

[Hagazussa]

I do not think being tuned to the shadow is something that someone can heal, though it might be possible to get though to them and have them themselves turn back. That makes for a much more dramatic scene to instead of just fancy magick and you are healed then internal struggle and then someone manages to get back to the light themselves, that seams more likely to me.

[mjasghar786]

There seems to be a part permanent compulsion - which nyneave could Heal - and a dark link

Now we know that shadow link can be broken - rand did it to asmo. It's amazing he never tried to recreate that ability to see the dark threads as it could well have been a way to detect dark friends

Of course that would have been difficult for the plot

My guess is though that many if the turned will die in combat , with the rest suiciding or having their minds melted when the dark one is sealed

Interesting point - will Fades all die then? Where do their souls come from? When they and trollocs die do they taint that soul next time? And if they do how will that effect the next Age

Finally, if the DO is sealed, what happens to those souls in his grasp? Everything points to them being released as we know that Ishy has been born in other Ages presumably when the angry one has been sealed away

[zerachiel76]

There seems to be a part permanent compulsion - which nyneave could Heal - and a dark link

 

Where is the source for this info? I'm not disbelieving you, I'd just like to know where the info comes from. The rest of your post is very interesting too, I'd not considered that Rand could break the dark link like he did to Asmo, good thinking tho. Maybe if he can remember how to sever the link he can teach others to do it?

[mjasghar786]

There was an RJ interview about the turning

To paraphrase turning suppresses the good qualities and lets the evil side get control, so the victim wouldn't want to be cured. Unfort the tone of the answer suggests they won't be cured in the books ie IIRC he said it could be done in theory perhaps whereas if it was going to happen you'd think it would be Rafo

[zerachiel76]

Thanks Mjas :)

[yoniy0]

I kinda got the opposite impression from what he said, that it'd be hard for one to turn back on one's own (for one thing, you wouldn't want to), implying that it's possible to Heal it, and we might get to see it happen.

[MasterAblar]

I kinda got the opposite impression from what he said, that it'd be hard for one to turn back on one's own (for one thing, you wouldn't want to), implying that it's possible to Heal it, and we might get to see it happen.

 

I've always thought that Rand might be able to do something about it what with the positive effect he has on everybody, making people's pain go away (Almen Bunt, Ituralde). It seems to me that the 13x13 is something that goes deeper than a simple injury or even something like the taint. It changes a persons very nature, which is something I don't think Nyneave can affect.

[Knivy]

"Noone is to far gone to the Shadow to turn back to the Light" or something..;.

 

There must be some way to reverse 13*13, since AS know about it and they can say that. At least they believe it.

[mjasghar786]

Who says all aes sed know about it? If they did pevara would have figured it out

Did RJ say anything about healing the madness? If he said rafo then why not say rafo about this as well