Moiraine, Leigh and Jason

[Asha'man Handsome]

Thom dies.

 

The humorous part? Well, if anyone could make jokes in a situation where they knew they had to sacrifice themselves then it would be Thom. Well, Mat of course, but we know he will survive.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Terez]

We know Thom will survive too.

[Asha'man Handsome]

Because he marries Moiraine?

 

Surely there's got to be a way around this? I mean, even Moiraine herself wrote about the possibility of death. She saw death and Thom would have been one of those that died.

 

So either Moiraine is lying (not true), did not see true possibilities (doubt it) or she and Thom don't necessarily take a roll together (in my mind, the most likely).

[Terez]

Because he marries Moiraine?

 

Surely there's got to be a way around this? I mean, even Moiraine herself wrote about the possibility of death. She saw death and Thom would have been one of those that died.

Sure, but the evidence points toward Thom surviving. This is how Moiraine knew Thom wasn't killed by the Fade. This is how she was able to say by the First Oath that Thom would survive Tanchico. I doubt Min's viewing had anything to do with Tanchico, which means that there was some event in the future that Moiraine knew Thom would live to reach. The marriage viewing - the only viewing Min ever had that 'failed' - seems most likely by far.

 

At the point of the Rhuidean possible futures, she was forced to reconsider what she knew because of the apparent likelihood that they would all die, but of course the most logical answer is that the choices she saw in Rhuidean were true, and that Min's viewing is also true. Min's viewing just so happens to coincide with the apparently unlikely Rhuidean option that allows for both Moiraine and Thom to escape alive.

[Asha'man Handsome]

Because he marries Moiraine?

 

Surely there's got to be a way around this? I mean, even Moiraine herself wrote about the possibility of death. She saw death and Thom would have been one of those that died.

Sure, but the evidence points toward Thom surviving. This is how Moiraine knew Thom wasn't killed by the Fade. This is how she was able to say by the First Oath that Thom would survive Tanchico. I doubt Min's viewing had anything to do with Tanchico, which means that there was some event in the future that Moiraine knew Thom would live to reach. The marriage viewing - the only viewing Min ever had that 'failed' - seems most likely by far.

 

At the point of the Rhuidean possible futures, she was forced to reconsider what she knew because of the apparent likelihood that they would all die, but of course the most logical answer is that the choices she saw in Rhuidean were true, and that Min's viewing is also true. Min's viewing just so happens to coincide with the apparently unlikely Rhuidean option that allows for both Moiraine and Thom to escape alive.

 

WHich is all fine and dandy, except I come back to the point where Moiraine states that she has seen Thom die. She explicitly states that it will happen if more than 3 go to ToG.

 

Which means she herself understands that previous visions/viewings may not necessarily hold true. All we can take from Moiraine is that she believed Thom would survive up until ToG. From there she is clear that continued survival is not guaranteed.

[Terez]

Because he marries Moiraine?

 

Surely there's got to be a way around this? I mean, even Moiraine herself wrote about the possibility of death. She saw death and Thom would have been one of those that died.

Sure, but the evidence points toward Thom surviving. This is how Moiraine knew Thom wasn't killed by the Fade. This is how she was able to say by the First Oath that Thom would survive Tanchico. I doubt Min's viewing had anything to do with Tanchico, which means that there was some event in the future that Moiraine knew Thom would live to reach. The marriage viewing - the only viewing Min ever had that 'failed' - seems most likely by far.

 

At the point of the Rhuidean possible futures, she was forced to reconsider what she knew because of the apparent likelihood that they would all die, but of course the most logical answer is that the choices she saw in Rhuidean were true, and that Min's viewing is also true. Min's viewing just so happens to coincide with the apparently unlikely Rhuidean option that allows for both Moiraine and Thom to escape alive.

 

WHich is all fine and dandy, except I come back to the point where Moiraine states that she has seen Thom die. She explicitly states that it will happen if more than 3 go to ToG.

 

Which means she herself understands that previous visions/viewings may not necessarily hold true. All we can take from Moiraine is that she believed Thom would survive up until ToG. From there she is clear that continued survival is not guaranteed.

From Min's viewing, it's guaranteed. Just because Moiraine has reason to doubt does not change the fact - Min's viewings are always true. They are 'absolute foretellings' according to RJ, which means that (unsurprisingly) Thom's success in getting both himself and Moiraine out of there alive is guaranteed. Mat's survival is guaranteed because of RJ's comments on him. Farstrider can die, though.

[Asha'man Handsome]

Because he marries Moiraine?

 

Surely there's got to be a way around this? I mean, even Moiraine herself wrote about the possibility of death. She saw death and Thom would have been one of those that died.

Sure, but the evidence points toward Thom surviving. This is how Moiraine knew Thom wasn't killed by the Fade. This is how she was able to say by the First Oath that Thom would survive Tanchico. I doubt Min's viewing had anything to do with Tanchico, which means that there was some event in the future that Moiraine knew Thom would live to reach. The marriage viewing - the only viewing Min ever had that 'failed' - seems most likely by far.

 

At the point of the Rhuidean possible futures, she was forced to reconsider what she knew because of the apparent likelihood that they would all die, but of course the most logical answer is that the choices she saw in Rhuidean were true, and that Min's viewing is also true. Min's viewing just so happens to coincide with the apparently unlikely Rhuidean option that allows for both Moiraine and Thom to escape alive.

 

WHich is all fine and dandy, except I come back to the point where Moiraine states that she has seen Thom die. She explicitly states that it will happen if more than 3 go to ToG.

 

Which means she herself understands that previous visions/viewings may not necessarily hold true. All we can take from Moiraine is that she believed Thom would survive up until ToG. From there she is clear that continued survival is not guaranteed.

From Min's viewing, it's guaranteed. Just because Moiraine has reason to doubt does not change the fact - Min's viewings are always true. They are 'absolute foretellings' according to RJ, which means that (unsurprisingly) Thom's success in getting both himself and Moiraine out of there alive is guaranteed. Mat's survival is guaranteed because of RJ's comments on him. Farstrider can die, though.

 

The thing that's always gotten me about Min's viewings is that surely there will be at least one that doesn't come true. It's the exception that makes the rule, isn't it?

 

There's also the possibility that they will get married in Finnland as part of some ploy by the Snakes/Foxes. The bastardly thing to do would be to bind two people together just before you tear them apart.

 

I mean, isn't this thread based around the validity of Moiraine's letter? We can't just accept the validity in order to start this conversation and then all of a sudden dismiss it because of Min's viewings. It either holds weight or it doesn't. You can't eat a peach and stay alive, too, you know...

[Terez]

 

The thing that's always gotten me about Min's viewings is that surely there will be at least one that doesn't come true. It's the exception that makes the rule, isn't it?

No? But if you want an exception...none of them will come true if the Pattern is destroyed.

 

There's also the possibility that they will get married in Finnland as part of some ploy by the Snakes/Foxes. The bastardly thing to do would be to bind two people together just before you tear them apart.

It seems unlikely.

 

I mean, isn't this thread based around the validity of Moiraine's letter? We can't just accept the validity in order to start this conversation and then all of a sudden dismiss it because of Min's viewings. It either holds weight or it doesn't. You can't eat a peach and stay alive, too, you know...

No one said her letter was invalid. She saw many options in the rings. Only one of them can come to pass, and she happened to see a chance for survival. That chance just so happens to coincide with Min's viewing, which is an absolute foretelling rather than a varied one. The rings only served to show her what she had to do in order to make that particular option come to pass.

[Rcurran]

Exception that proves the rule... Quite probably the most misused common phrase. So much so I read it and doubt my own brain.

 

Thing is it's not the thing that goes against the rule that proves it. It's with exception the rule is proved not by exception. I mean seriously, what did you think it meant?

 

For example a man floated off the ground today - ah ha! Gravity does exist, that man proved it?

 

Sounds bonkers

[Aquarius]

Sounds bonkers

Yes :p

Everybody here assumes that Min will be wrong if and only if the DO wins (end of time, Pattern destroyed, blah, blah ...)

As it been discussed here some vision of hers could also be wrong if somehow the Patern was... unfolded ?? Sorry, I don't really know how to say it, (not native english, blah blah...). I mean. If time becomes linear and (wheel broken or freewheeling), what effect will that have on the Pattern (which is what Min is supposed to be looking at) ?

[Asha'man Handsome]

So when Moiraine says that she sees death for all if there aren't 3 (Thom, Mat and one other) and she is quite adamant about it, then we're all cool to say that there is no truth to her vision whatsoever? So it's just to be dismissed?

 

Now I'm cool with that but let's lay it down now. If Olver enters ToG then we can just dismiss Moiraine's letter?

 

So we can just dismiss this thread, then, because it is entirely based upon Moiraine's letter?

 

Once again, I'm cool with that as long as we're all sweet with it.

[Terez]

So when Moiraine says that she sees death for all if there aren't 3 (Thom, Mat and one other) and she is quite adamant about it, then we're all cool to say that there is no truth to her vision whatsoever? So it's just to be dismissed?

Can you read?

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Regarding the 15 year wait...

 

Leigh mentioned in her WoT re-read that The Path of Daggers was the first WoT book she had to wait for, so she actually started reading the series in '95 or '96. Therefore anything that started before or within ACoS would count as a 15 year wait.

 

Granted, Moiraine's return is one of the most likely events for it to pertain to. Another is Rand finally getting to Tar Valon, which hopefully turns out somewhat better than the events in Egwene's Accepted test.

 

-- dwn

 

Well, in Egwene's accepted test she had the ageless face so it would be impossible for things to go exactly as they did in the arches.

[dwn]

Well, in Egwene's accepted test she had the ageless face so it would be impossible for things to go exactly as they did in the arches.

 

I didn't mean to suggest they would. Only that Rand wasn't in a happy place in Egwene's Accepted test and that, presumably, his visit to Tar Valon now will turn out better (skirt smoothing, cool looks and raised eyebrows notwithstanding).

 

-- dwn

[Sharaman]

Well, in Egwene's accepted test she had the ageless face so it would be impossible for things to go exactly as they did in the arches.

 

I didn't mean to suggest they would. Only that Rand wasn't in a happy place in Egwene's Accepted test and that, presumably, his visit to Tar Valon now will turn out better (skirt smoothing, cool looks and raised eyebrows notwithstanding).

 

-- dwn

 

What about the sniffing then? Don't forget the sniffing.

[Rcurran]

I wouldn't be surprised if the initial events with the Finns worked along the lines of a Boolean puzzle.

[Arthur55]

Well what I see is Mo letter describes a number of threads the pattern can take in regards to her situation, but all know the most likely of those threads to come true is the one in relation to Min Foretelling. I can't see it going any other way.

 

She will be rescued by Mat, Tom and one other and also we may see Mat loose one of his eyes because of the rules regarding entrance into the Eelfin and Alfins Domain.

[Naffy]

 

The thing that's always gotten me about Min's viewings is that surely there will be at least one that doesn't come true. It's the exception that makes the rule, isn't it?

No? But if you want an exception...none of them will come true if the Pattern is destroyed.

 

But we know that the pattern won't be destroyed because we get an except from Loial's book at the beginning of ToM. I am surprised that there hasn't been more talk about this HUGE spoiler. Not to mention all the 4th age excerpts at the beginning/end of the other books.

[Cyf]

I don't really think that's a huge spoiler. I mean, who the heck really expected Jordan to take a Grimdark ending and have the Dark One win or something? Really? :)

[Rcurran]

Some people referred to it as the third age... I believe Loial's book was written, maybe in age -7 or as some knew it, the Fourth age. I think it was also written in ages 1000974 and 12.

[NetSlider]

The thing that's always gotten me about Min's viewings is that surely there will be at least one that doesn't come true. It's the exception that makes the rule, isn't it?

No? But if you want an exception...none of them will come true if the Pattern is destroyed.

Well, that's cheerful of you

[maddface]

This maybe a bit of a read, please excuse the wall of text.

 

There are several things in this thread that have thrown me for a loop and a couple of questions that I may have an answer for (hopefully):

 

1) The issue of how time is in Finnland is one that I believe I have the answer for. When Mat entered the ter angreal in Rhuidein (sp.) he did so pretty much right after Rand entered the column ter angreal. When Mat was let out, he was hanging from the tree of life and Rand was just exiting the column ter angreal. This does not answer the time issue, however we find out later that they had been gone for 7 days. Now given this information and one can assume from the book text, that Mat was not in Finnland for more than a few hours at most. Unless some form of miracle occurred while Rand was performing CPR to Mat, we have to assume that Mat was hanging there for less than 15 minutes (as after that time roughly he would be unable to be resuscitated). These facts would mean that at least in the Foxes side of Finnland that time flows differently than in the real world (simalar to TAR). Given the benefit of the doubt that time only flows slower in Finnland than we can say that Moraine has been trapped in Finnland for approx. 1 month while 7.5 months passed in the real world.

 

2) One bit of speculation that I would like to throw out there is that the foxes did not expel Mat from Finnland UNTIL AFTER he made his third wish. Only after that time did they require payment for said wishes (although they did grant his wishes prior to expelling him presumably). What is to say that the reason Moraine is still alive in Finnland is that she has not made all three of her wishes yet. I agree that one of her wishes was probably to wish Lanfear away, but what would be her other two. Maybe her third wish will be similar to Mat and wish them all out of Finnland. Then payment for the wishes is that Mat gives an eye up (why, I haven't deduced yet but its just a theory anyway).

 

3) I must have missed Min's viewing of Thom marrying Moraine. I know that Min's viewing that Moraine would have to be there for Rand to win the last battle worried her but I cannot recall where she said Thom and Moraine would marry. Can anyone point me to where that happened? (Unless its in ToM as I have not read any of the pre-release material.)

 

Personally, I agree with the other theories of what happens. The three men go in and then Olver follows after them. Then when they get to Moraine she wishes her and the three men to be released from Finnland and then Olver shows himself and Noal sacrifices his spot on the exit list for Olver. That's just my theory though.

[Sid]

We've had headers and footers from the Fourth Age before Loial's book excerpt.

 

It would seem that this isn't the last turning of the Wheel like Moridin wants/expects, but it says nothing of what will or won't happen other than the DO won't break completely free and destroy reality in the current age.

[Tenesmus]

as to asmodean for some reason i keep thinking moraine is the one who killed him, please don't ask why i have no textev, its just the feeling i keep getting over the years

 

Hey, Welcome to the "I have always thought Moiraine did it, but have no real evidence" club! A long time ago when I was reading my first edition hard back of TFOH, and got to the end when Asmo got toasted, I just assumed it was Moiraine. That was way back when I was just an avid reader of the books, before I knew there were all these feaky fans out there discussing these things. In my mind it was just Moiraine. It fit. Her letter to Rand telling him to not trust Jasin, saying she can not wholly support Rand using him, and that he is still a forsaken at heart. She was even eavesdropping on Jasin and Rand with her bluestone. Then she goes and gets herself sucked into Finnland purposely and is likely given three wishes. Even Asmo's reaction, "You? No!" fit very nicely. I just made the mental connections, it wasn't very hard.

 

I hope we find out that all the Graendal hints were a false trail and that I was right with my initial reaction reading the book so long ago.

[masty]

I know for sure there have been discussions about this so what is the most solid theory on why moraine is alive when lanfear died and had to be brought back as cyndane by DO?