Moiraine, Leigh and Jason

[Grape_Ape]

Sid. Thank you.

 

Ok, so I've yet to see brought up WHY the Finns would bother to even hold Mo captive in the first place? Especially given they are fashion plates for the latest in human skin styles. This leads me to think that one of her wishes was that they not kill her for arriving the way she did. How else could she be alive after ~7.5 months? I think part of the reason I want her back so much is to know why they kept her alive.

 

Obviously there is debate as to whether or not she wished for an exchange in power with Lanfear. There is nothing I know of that is conclusive to prove either side of the argument. We can at least leave open the idea that she wished for it...OR...something similar. The scenario makes most sense to me is that Mo wished for an exchange and got only a fraction through the Finns twisting her intent. That seems right in character for them, and the irony of an AS getting a dose of her own medicine would be amusing.

 

My prediction is this:

 

Either

1) Mo didn't think to make a wish to leave (unlikely).

2) Mo used all three wishes to both keep her hide intact and foil Lanfear, leaving no wish available to get out.

 

And

3) One of Mo's wishes had to be that they don't kill her while she's there.

[Suttree]

 

So that's my theory. Mat, Jason and Leigh will enter the Towers of Midnight to save Moiraine, only to be followed in by Oluckers. Jason and Leigh will end up trapped in a Finn Leather-working factory [Oh CRAP!], Mat will lose an eye, but he, Moiraine and Oluckers will escape--all blissfully unaware that Oluckers is Demandred, and orchestrated the whole thing.

 

 

Very nice, but where is Valan Luca in all of this?

 

Yes! That was awesome, so good that people still remember those crazy Luca theories.

[Savere]

A chapter involving Olver which breaks Jason's heart? Yet which has elements of humour to it, and is inevitable but unpredictable. I think Olver will run away and follow Mat, Noal and Thom into the Tower of Ghenjei, thus changing the game away from the scene Moiraine foresaw and placing everything in risk. The tragedy will be the 'oh crap' result that Leigh referenced [more on this in a second], the humour will be in the 'oh Olver, you incorigable scamp' element of it, and the inevitability of it comes from Olver's fascination with the Tower, his history of not doing what he's told, and his history of following Mat when Mat tries to leave him behind

 

I read this a few times and I keep coming up with a theory that wont seem to let me go. I have read a lot of the speculation and I havn't seen anyone mention Olver's original reason for loving the game, the fact that it was the only object from his days with his late father. Remember it was the only possession that the boy owned and his greatest treasure. Through the books it seems to have been forgotten and I'm thinking that the "heart breaking" moment with having something to do with the destruction of the board or maybe his defense of the board and Olver's memories of his father?

[KefkaPalazzo]

I have always wondered whether the finns are somehow 'sponsored' (for lack of a better word) by the DO. I know they're not connected to him directly and likely have nothing to do with him, but the prohibition on questions relating to him has always struck me as odd. Is it simply because the DO is not in the mortal dimension and cannot therefore be fore-read like the rest of the world? Or is it something more sinister? Coming back to the sponsoring thing, in KoD, Tuon berates Mat for believing in so many "superstitions" and asks something like,"Do you really believe that if you sleep on Old Hob's hill, foxes come and give you true answers to three questions and snakes..." (I'm really sorry I can't remember the quote, someone please help me) where Old Hob refers of course to "Caisen Hob", another name for the DO.

 

Anyway, coming to the point, we know that so many rumours around Randland actually have their basis in fact, and I wondered if this old Seanchan tale was not as corrupted as it seems. Who really has the guts (or the luck) to spend a night sleeping on Shayol Ghul? Maybe simply doing so can transport you to Finnland. Or it could simply mean that the Finns have some sort of connection to the place, and what connection to Shayol Ghul can lack a connection to the DO?

 

Therefore, it is my theory that the DO somehow provides the Finns with something essential to them, in return for them not answering questions related to him and immediately executing or doing something as nasty to the people who are foolish enough to ask.

 

As to what the DO can offer to the Finns, I cannot say. Perhaps a regular supply of human skins peeled before they are sent to the trolloc cookpots? And why can he not simply bully them into obedience? Maybe because they are in a different dimension, he cannot affect them as strongly, and maybe traveling through the portal ter'angreal is as fatal for shadowspawn as traveling through an OP gateway. My theory is far from perfect, but it's just one of those things I like to think.

 

 

For all this support, the DO gives them new clothes? I can see it now: "I won the last battle and all I got was this lousy T-shirt"

[wvlr2]

For all this support, the DO gives them new clothes? I can see it now: "I won the last battle and all I got was this lousy T-shirt"

 

That would be more like:

 

"I won the last battle and all I got was this lousy LANFEAR T-shirt"

[Impressive Bosom]

It also may be that you and Mat Cauthon and another, a man I do not know, will try to rescue me. May, I say because it may be that you will not or cannot, or because Mat may refuse. He does not hold me in the affection you seem to. and he has his reasons which he no doubt thinks are good. If you try, it must be only you and Mat and one other. More will mean death for all. Fewer will mean death for all. Even if you come only with Mat and one other, death also may come. I have seen you try and die, one or two or all three. I have seen myself die in the attempt. I have seen all of us live and die as captives.

 

[Moiraine Damodred's Review of Towers of Midnight]

 

Just throwing this out there - that phrase 'death for all' has an Aes-Sedaiesque ambiguity to it. Death for all four who come? Death for all four plus Moiraine? Death for everyone in Finnland? Death for everyone in the Pattern?

 

It'll be interesting when we finally find out, interesting to say the least.

[KefkaPalazzo]

It also may be that you and Mat Cauthon and another, a man I do not know, will try to rescue me. May, I say because it may be that you will not or cannot, or because Mat may refuse. He does not hold me in the affection you seem to. and he has his reasons which he no doubt thinks are good. If you try, it must be only you and Mat and one other. More will mean death for all. Fewer will mean death for all. Even if you come only with Mat and one other, death also may come. I have seen you try and die, one or two or all three. I have seen myself die in the attempt. I have seen all of us live and die as captives.

 

[Moiraine Damodred's Review of Towers of Midnight]

 

Just throwing this out there - that phrase 'death for all' has an Aes-Sedaiesque ambiguity to it. Death for all four who come? Death for all four plus Moiraine? Death for everyone in Finnland? Death for everyone in the Pattern?

 

It'll be interesting when we finally find out, interesting to say the least.

 

What I wonder is if the "speak no word that is not true" oath extends to writing untrue things.

[Jimmy]

Yes, an Aes Sedai can no more write a lie then she could speak a lie

Reference Alviarin's letter to Rand in Carhien i believe. where she said for him to keep her letter close to the fires of his heart or something like that. Rand asked Moraine the same thing and Moraine confirmed that AS cannot write a lie.

[vasu619]

I have always wondered whether the finns are somehow 'sponsored' (for lack of a better word) by the DO. I know they're not connected to him directly and likely have nothing to do with him, but the prohibition on questions relating to him has always struck me as odd. Is it simply because the DO is not in the mortal dimension and cannot therefore be fore-read like the rest of the world? Or is it something more sinister? Coming back to the sponsoring thing, in KoD, Tuon berates Mat for believing in so many "superstitions" and asks something like,"Do you really believe that if you sleep on Old Hob's hill, foxes come and give you true answers to three questions and snakes..." (I'm really sorry I can't remember the quote, someone please help me) where Old Hob refers of course to "Caisen Hob", another name for the DO.

 

Anyway, coming to the point, we know that so many rumours around Randland actually have their basis in fact, and I wondered if this old Seanchan tale was not as corrupted as it seems. Who really has the guts (or the luck) to spend a night sleeping on Shayol Ghul? Maybe simply doing so can transport you to Finnland. Or it could simply mean that the Finns have some sort of connection to the place, and what connection to Shayol Ghul can lack a connection to the DO?

 

Therefore, it is my theory that the DO somehow provides the Finns with something essential to them, in return for them not answering questions related to him and immediately executing or doing something as nasty to the people who are foolish enough to ask.

 

As to what the DO can offer to the Finns, I cannot say. Perhaps a regular supply of human skins peeled before they are sent to the trolloc cookpots? And why can he not simply bully them into obedience? Maybe because they are in a different dimension, he cannot affect them as strongly, and maybe traveling through the portal ter'angreal is as fatal for shadowspawn as traveling through an OP gateway. My theory is far from perfect, but it's just one of those things I like to think.

 

 

For all this support, the DO gives them new clothes? I can see it now: "I won the last battle and all I got was this lousy T-shirt"

 

 

LMAO

 

But there are any number of things the Finns can get from the DO. An eternity of memories to feed off, if that's possible, or they could simply be saving their own skins from an attack from the DO when he decides he doesn't want lightsiders getting foreknowledge about his actions.

 

EDIT: But, we're drifting off-topic here, and I don't want to jack this thread with Finnland discussions.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

An alternate theory to Leigh's "Oh Crap" moment that I have considered is that this may actually have to do with Logain and Taim finally coming face to face. Specifically, this will at first appear to be a confrontation between the two but instead the two will claps hands and reveal the evil scheme which they have been hatching together. If this happens I will be severely heartbroken as I have been a huge Logain fans since the moment he left Tar Valon, but Leigh did say it involved to excellent story telling and I must admit it would be a rather clever twist. I suppose the real question here is have we been waiting quite 15 years for this confrontation? Well it was not until WT that we began seeing a clear divide in the BT between those loyal to Taim and those Loyal to Logain, and this book was released only ten years ago. Moreover, as of the end of LoC (16 years ago) we had good reason to believe that Taim was on the up and up as he had just shed up @ Dummi's well to save Rand's butt from the AS. On the other hand, Taim did always show a touch of animosity toward Rand and LTT always freaked out in his presence thus we also had reason to believe that Taim might have a hidden agenda. Couple this with the fact that Logain was more or less helpful and cooperate during the flight from Tar Valon and his time in Salidar and we have good reason to believe that Logain, at least, was on the up and up. Taken all together this did seem to indicate a Logain good, Taim bad dynamic and I for one began to suspect at this point that the two would ultimately come into conflict. Any thoughts?

[Scraps]

The eseence of the tower is to cheat. With moiraine's letter, she's indirectly set the rules of the game - you break the rules and you will die.

 

Mat likes cheating on the other hand - he uses his ta'veran luck and even if he didn't, I'm sure he'd learn how to cheat at anything.

 

Moiraine is using reverse psychology and she's tricking Mat into doing something that he would naturally do - Cheat. If she said anything else and instructed him to cheat, it might make him doubt those actions and the attempt would fail. This could implicate Olver.

 

This was just a passing thought - good read re luckers theory though.

[Terez]

Ok, so I've yet to see brought up WHY the Finns would bother to even hold Mo captive in the first place?

Bait

[Logoth]

5.“Well, finally, I have only been asking for this for like fifteen years. This is awesome. This is—wait. Uh, what’s going on… what are they… what does that… oh crap.”

 

I think this has to do with a) Moiraine escapes with Mat and crew from ToG and b) Moiraine will quickly give a thunderous reveal. I predict that someone that has been close to Rand for a long time is Demandred. Like Davram Bashere or someone else that we have not had a PoV from yet.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Yes, an Aes Sedai can no more write a lie then she could speak a lie

Reference Alviarin's letter to Rand in Carhien i believe. where she said for him to keep her letter close to the fires of his heart or something like that. Rand asked Moraine the same thing and Moraine confirmed that AS cannot write a lie.

 

No, but she can write something she believes is the truth. That doesn't mean it is true. She can misinterpret and make mistakes like anyone else.

[stoneface]

1. The Band will have strict orders to keep Olver from following. Olver will slip away and ride Wind, the winning racehorse, and follw the three into the ToG.

 

2. Interesting thought about Moiraine exchanging power with Lanfear. Some speculated that Lanfear had bargained for extra power herself ages past, and Cyndane lost the extra boost. (Penalty for entering twice, and able to enter twice because of the channeling and Moiraine's flying tackle?)

 

3. What was the price that Moiraine paid? Regardless of getting extra power, could the price have been getting burned out? However, Lan immediately lost his bond to her. Was Moiraine immediately burned out, or did the burning doorway cut the link, or does time flow diffferently (maybe not, or not much)? I have always thought that she burned out immediately. Was being imprisoned the price?

 

4. Whatever the cause, I expect Moiraine to be burned out. When Rand sees her, I expect that he will think that she is Caraline Damodred. Rand always thinks of Moiraine when he sees Caraline, and notes how much alike they look.

 

Definitely looking forward to reading it!

[AparnaVengakkad]

Is Apples First spoilers allowed here? Anyways i am posting. I hope it will be removed if not allowed.

 

Couldn't that exclamation be regard to Rand and Egwene meeting? I think people have waited a lot for that confrontation as well. (though i am not sure whether it is 15 years)

I didn't think Rand would be harmed at first, but it seem there is an AS law that says Amyrlin cannot put herself in danger. What if Egwene is not even told of Rand's arrival and some aes sedai tries to do something to him. Turn him away.. argue with him.. or worse (though i don't think that possible since they seem to have gained some sense).

 

If it is w.r.t Moiraine, i hope nobody gets killed. It will be too bad if it happens.

[Grape_Ape]

Ok, so I've yet to see brought up WHY the Finns would bother to even hold Mo captive in the first place?

Bait

 

I assume you mean to attract Mat? Had she not given Thom the letter before her departure, nobody would have any idea she's alive - including Mat. The Finns shouldn't have a reason to think Mo would be bait for anybody. But let's assume they manage to put together dynamic puzzle pieces that are existing in another dimension; why try and bring Mat back to Finnland? To what end? Seems far fetched to me. But you usually have something interesting to point out, so I'm all ears.

[Sniff Glare]

I'm being itched by a thought that there will be a wrinkle thrown in by the fact that the Aelfinn and Eelfinn are not in the same place. Moiraine fell into the foxes' doorway. Do we have evidence that the snakes and foxes interact with each other? What if the ToG entrance leads into the snake area? Would the different 'finn fight together, or would it be a "first we have to beat the snakes, then go in and beat the foxes"? A two-stage fight would allow different tactics to come into play, and maybe give each member of the raiding party a better chance to show why they were especially needed.

 

Also, Mat brought in a steel dagger the first time, so I'm guessing we are really talking about iron, right? Like handcuffs? Or is that too literal for "to bind"?

 

Sorry for the questions, but you guys are so wise...

 

 

[Cyf]

It depends. Mat never mentioned the dagger, they just asked. If they go by mythology, then steel counts. All that cold-forged-iron stuff was metaphor, not literal. If they go by the modern misinterpretation that seems so prevalent now, then it has to be uber-pure-iron. (I blame the Victorians and poor researchers of novels/RPGs, to be honest).

[KefkaPalazzo]

I'm being itched by a thought that there will be a wrinkle thrown in by the fact that the Aelfinn and Eelfinn are not in the same place. Moiraine fell into the foxes' doorway. Do we have evidence that the snakes and foxes interact with each other? What if the ToG entrance leads into the snake area? Would the different 'finn fight together, or would it be a "first we have to beat the snakes, then go in and beat the foxes"? A two-stage fight would allow different tactics to come into play, and maybe give each member of the raiding party a better chance to show why they were especially needed.

 

Also, Mat brought in a steel dagger the first time, so I'm guessing we are really talking about iron, right? Like handcuffs? Or is that too literal for "to bind"?

 

Sorry for the questions, but you guys are so wise...

 

They are in the same place. Lanfear fell in through the same doorway at the same time as Moiraine. The Aelfinn AND the Eelfinn held her. Reference Lanfear Cyndane's POV at the cleansing.

 

My personal theory is that it won't be a fight. It will be a stealth mission. The only way to win Snakes and Foxes (theoretically) is to not cross paths with either of them.

 

As good as RJ was about tactics in battle, I'd be really disappointed if the plan is much different from: You have a grand total of 3 people on your side you can count on. A fourth is expected to arrive, but her status is unknown. You are facing unknown numbers. These unknown numbers have unknown abilities, weapons, and possibly laws of physics. They are as alien to you as anything can be. Knowing all that, would YOU run into the tower, guns blazing, shouting "MOIRAINE SEDAI OF HOUSE DAMODRED, THE THREE OF US ARE HERE TO RESCUE YOU"? Hell no. You move as quickly and quietly as possible, praying to god that the Finn don't see you.

 

What bothers me, is how Rand got away with using his "sword of fire" thing in book 4. I wonder what they did when confronted with someone who did not follow the rules.

[Terez]

Ok, so I've yet to see brought up WHY the Finns would bother to even hold Mo captive in the first place?

Bait

 

I assume you mean to attract Mat? Had she not given Thom the letter before her departure, nobody would have any idea she's alive - including Mat. The Finns shouldn't have a reason to think Mo would be bait for anybody.

Aside from the fact that they can see the future? Or at least, the Aelfinn can.

 

But let's assume they manage to put together dynamic puzzle pieces that are existing in another dimension; why try and bring Mat back to Finnland? To what end? Seems far fetched to me. But you usually have something interesting to point out, so I'm all ears.

The savor, of course. It may just have to do with him being ta'veren - that might be something like a delicacy in 'Finnland, though it seems they have trouble handling more than one at a time - but it might also be that Mat has something in particular that they want. In any case, they don't get visitors very often, and they obviously thrive on them.

[Grape_Ape]

Ok, so I've yet to see brought up WHY the Finns would bother to even hold Mo captive in the first place?

Bait

 

I assume you mean to attract Mat? Had she not given Thom the letter before her departure, nobody would have any idea she's alive - including Mat. The Finns shouldn't have a reason to think Mo would be bait for anybody.

Aside from the fact that they can see the future? Or at least, the Aelfinn can.

 

But let's assume they manage to put together dynamic puzzle pieces that are existing in another dimension; why try and bring Mat back to Finnland? To what end? Seems far fetched to me. But you usually have something interesting to point out, so I'm all ears.

The savor, of course. It may just have to do with him being ta'veren - that might be something like a delicacy in 'Finnland, though it seems they have trouble handling more than one at a time - but it might also be that Mat has something in particular that they want. In any case, they don't get visitors very often, and they obviously thrive on them.

 

Right, the Aelfinn. But not Eelfinn (as far as has been shown or even alluded to). The Eelfinn seem the other side of the same coin to me - dealing more with the past (via memories).

 

To your second point - the savor - I can see that one. I was thinking more about the issues you mentioned with two at a time. One at a time, though, you may be right. With any luck we'll have an answer soon!!!

[Terez]

Right, the Aelfinn. But not Eelfinn (as far as has been shown or even alluded to).

It doesn't really matter, seeing as how they work together. The Aelfinn knew that Mat had to go to Rhuidean, and likely they knew exactly why.

[Guest kamikaze]

My crazy theory regarding Olver is that he is a Finn himself. He is always referred to as being ugly, to the point where I feel there must be a reason RJ wanted to continually reinforce it. It makes me think that Olver is actually a Finn child...thing.

 

Additionally, he has an weird fascination with the Snakes and Foxes game. This could be the big "reveal" concerning Olver. It's not what I would call likely, but it could happen.

[dwn]

Regarding the 15 year wait...

 

Leigh mentioned in her WoT re-read that The Path of Daggers was the first WoT book she had to wait for, so she actually started reading the series in '95 or '96. Therefore anything that started before or within ACoS would count as a 15 year wait.

 

Granted, Moiraine's return is one of the most likely events for it to pertain to. Another is Rand finally getting to Tar Valon, which hopefully turns out somewhat better than the events in Egwene's Accepted test.

 

-- dwn