a philosophical question: the dark one betrays..

[Darian]

one of the few things I have come across, though definitely not explicitly indicated in the story, is that the only forsaken to truely understand the mind of the dark one is Ishamel. While the rest of the forsakens battle for power in terms of the idea that when the dark one is freed, they will divide and conquer the lands and govern them--all under the dark one. However, it is my assumption that Ishamel conveys a certain thought long betrayed by the dark one to his Nabelis: that he is the antithesis of the creator, which implies that he wants to undo everything the creator did, whether as a final insolent attack against the creator or simply a dangerous grudge, the very thought relies on shakespeare's "motiveless, maligancy" or evil for the sake of evil. I believe that the dark one plans on undoing the pattern, thereby creating a plane of 'nothingness'--a final sop to the creator. what mystifies me the most is how effortlessly ishamel embraces this frightening idea...does the other forsaken know this? did Semihrage find out too late? and if they did, which one will most likely turn against the dark one to save a world where if destroyed, there would be nothing left to rule? or are they all self driven and blinded for what was promised to them? it seems to me that they fail to realize that the father of lies is capable of lying even to his most trusted servants. any thoughts? i greatly appreciated it!! :)

[Zyntras]

dont forget that most of the forsaken have serious drug issues and the DO is the only dealer around ;p

 

so i think he has his people prettie much under control

[Byzantine279]

No, the greedy fools have no idea. If they learned they would probably be the first to go beg rand to stop him, they are far too greedy to want creation to be destroyed since if it doesn't exist then they have nothing to rule later.

 

Ishy just gave up and became all doom and gloom like Rand was in tGS, he's just depressed to the point of wanting creation itself to end, scary really.

[The Wolf King]

I always thought Lanfear would have been smart enough to figure that out, but I guess her lust for power has totally blinded her to the Dark One's intent once he becomes free.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It does seem strange, but I dont think it really is.

 

The DO isnt anything like a human, you cannot really predict it. It would be like us trying to understand God. You just cant do it.

 

ALl of the Forsaken went over to the Shadow for power, revenge or freedom.

 

Semirhage had the option of severing, binding or go over to Shadow.

 

Demandred wanted to be more powerful the LTT, so he went over.

 

Asmodean wanted to play his music forever...

 

Anyway, it all comes down to the fact that they all want to be Immortal and all powerful.

 

They know they cannot trust the DO fully. They know he might betray them.

 

But he has given them access to the TP, promised immortality and shown power beyond any measure.

 

They believe nothing can stop the DO. That he will certainly win. So they take the chance of immortality and great power that the DO has promised.

[Zyntras]

i think its quite difficult to understand for someone who only wants to rule that the one being that could rule everything does not want to, but in fact wants to destroy all of what he rules.

 

its like: you are totally happy to finally have been able to buy yourself a new car. You drive around in your new car and see that gloomy guy you have seen at the carseller guy, too. you whatch him and see how he destroys ALL cars of the carseller you did not buy with a sledgehammer and then wanders of to buy new cars :o .

[Barid Bel Medar]

Here is what RJ had to say about it.

 

 

TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005 https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_53c74tbncv#Robert_Jordan_Quotes

 

Week 1 Question: The Dark One has promised his followers immortality and power above all others on the Day of Return. In previous interviews you have said that this is within his power. My question is, will he? I mean, he doesn't seem very loyal or trustworthy to me. If (Light forbid) he breaks free, will he remember the "little people" or just destroy all the puny humans when he remakes the world in his own image?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: That's the big question for the Forsaken, isn't it. Can they trust the Dark One? You're right; he isn't very trustworthy or loyal. Greed leads people to believe strange things, to excuse the most abhorrent behavior on their parts-just check out the nightly news for confirmation-and at the root, that is what motivates the Forsaken and, in truth, most Darkfriends. Greed for power, greed for immortality. That makes them believe, because they want to believe. So will he grant these things? Maybe. After all, he gains more willing followers, more eager followers, if he is seen to give rewards. But will he care whether he has any followers at all in a world where he is all-powerful? Flip a coin and check which way the wind is blowing. Maybe you can find the answer there.

[The Wolf King]

Here is what RJ had to say about it.

 

 

TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005 https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_53c74tbncv#Robert_Jordan_Quotes

 

Week 1 Question: The Dark One has promised his followers immortality and power above all others on the Day of Return. In previous interviews you have said that this is within his power. My question is, will he? I mean, he doesn't seem very loyal or trustworthy to me. If (Light forbid) he breaks free, will he remember the "little people" or just destroy all the puny humans when he remakes the world in his own image?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: That's the big question for the Forsaken, isn't it. Can they trust the Dark One? You're right; he isn't very trustworthy or loyal. Greed leads people to believe strange things, to excuse the most abhorrent behavior on their parts-just check out the nightly news for confirmation-and at the root, that is what motivates the Forsaken and, in truth, most Darkfriends. Greed for power, greed for immortality. That makes them believe, because they want to believe. So will he grant these things? Maybe. After all, he gains more willing followers, more eager followers, if he is seen to give rewards. But will he care whether he has any followers at all in a world where he is all-powerful? Flip a coin and check which way the wind is blowing. Maybe you can find the answer there.

 

So basically the Forsaken are effed.

[FarShainMael]

Possibly the events of VoG - not to mention the balefiring of Natrin's Barrow - may give the FS pause. It will be interesting to see some of their PoVs on those.

[Kestrel]

Possibly the events of VoG - not to mention the balefiring of Natrin's Barrow - may give the FS pause. It will be interesting to see some of their PoVs on those.

Please excuse the sidestep here, but my brain seems to have been temporarily disconnected.

 

What is VoG?

[Zyntras]

Veins of Gold, Last chapter of tGS (the Gathering Storm :o )

[graendalzooescapee]

Veins of Gold, Last chapter of tGS (the Gathering Storm :o )

 

I don't even think Ishamael is depressed. He's a nihilist philosopher (the Guide gives his first book title as "Absence of Meaning") whose research led him to the conclusion that the DO would win and annihilate the world. He isn't wasting time being depressed--he just joined what he believed to be the winning side in the hopes of getting some temporary good out of the situation. My dear husband (maybe you'll meet him when his work lets up} thinks Ishy is kind of admirable in the way he accepts the end results of his belief system.

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, the Forsaken are just as screwed as everyone else if the DO wins. So, as a wiser man than me once said, that's why you don't ally yourself with the forces of darkness - because they'll screw you.

[NetSlider]

dont forget that most of the forsaken have serious drug issues and the DO is the only dealer around ;p

 

so i think he has his people prettie much under control

 

Can you imagine Demandred "Hey, is this 5 o'clock free crack give-away? Come on man, I'll s**k ur d%&^ for it, man!" (Dave Chappelle anyone?)

[Jon Paul]

He isn't wasting time being depressed--he just joined what he believed to be the winning side in the hopes of getting some temporary good out of the situation.

 

Elan isn't looking for any good. Goodness doesn't exist in Elan's mind. Nor does evil for that matter.. morality is not a factor for Elan because it isn't really a factor in the Wheel of Time. There is simply Order and Chaos and what humans wish to prescribe to them.

 

Elan is with Shai'tan because he's concluded that Shai'tan is going to win eventually. Maybe not in this age or the next, but some time down the line. Why fight it? Why try and keep the barbarian at the gate?

 

People don't go and shelter in the palm of the Creator after the die in Randland, they go to a little lake and sit there until the Pattern decides to yank them out again, rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. There's no point in trying to enjoy every minute you can.. when the Dark One breaks out you're going to cease anyway. Elan recognises this. He just wants to cease now because it's going to happen anyway.

 

That is why Elan is so bad-ass. He just wants it over with.

[Vermillion]

He isn't wasting time being depressed--he just joined what he believed to be the winning side in the hopes of getting some temporary good out of the situation.

 

Elan isn't looking for any good. Goodness doesn't exist in Elan's mind. Nor does evil for that matter.. morality is not a factor for Elan because it isn't really a factor in the Wheel of Time. There is simply Order and Chaos and what humans wish to prescribe to them.

 

Elan is with Shai'tan because he's concluded that Shai'tan is going to win eventually. Maybe not in this age or the next, but some time down the line. Why fight it? Why try and keep the barbarian at the gate?

 

People don't go and shelter in the palm of the Creator after the die in Randland, they go to a little lake and sit there until the Pattern decides to yank them out again, rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. There's no point in trying to enjoy every minute you can.. when the Dark One breaks out you're going to cease anyway. Elan recognises this. He just wants to cease now because it's going to happen anyway.

 

That is why Elan is so bad-ass. He just wants it over with.

 

But there is a paradox that he hasn't taken into account. The creator exists outside of time. The creation of all of Randland and I mean all of Randland every infinite second, every infinite variable were created at once. Time plays out in a cyclical nature meaning what happens has happened before infinite times and infinite variables. There is no beginning and there is no end. The Future is the Past. Each age is slightly different until infinity where it repeats exactly the same. Each moment branches off infinite variables of what could happpen. Yeah, doesn't make sense on a human level lol.

 

This means that if the DO was freed he would have already been freed in the past or the future. This says to me that he can't be freed. The only catch is that if the DO breaks free maybe it's not included in the pattern but even the DO admitted that he does not operate outside of time.

[Jon Paul]

But there is a paradox that he hasn't taken into account. The creator exists outside of time. The creation of all of Randland and I mean all of Randland every infinite second, every infinite variable were created at once. Time plays out in a cyclical nature meaning what happens has happened before infinite times and infinite variables. Each age is slightly different until infinity where it repeats exactly the same. Yeah, doesn't make sense on a human level lol.

 

This means that if the DO was freed he would have already been freed in the past or the future. The only catch is that if the DO breaks free maybe it's not included in the pattern but even the DO admitted that he does not operate outside of time.

 

Oh I know, I started a thread about this, or very close to, a while ago but I think it was lost when the forums were updated. There are infinite variations of the Pattern. If Rand turned left one day whilst pacing, or right, a mirror-world would exist in which he moved in the opposite direction. And those mirror-world's substantiality rely on the chances of them being a true possibility. Assuming that TG is going to go down on a razor's edge, then a mirror-world with true substantiality will be thrown up in which the Dark One does win and break free. As Verin said, there is only one Prison and one Dark One. If he breaks free in one world he breaks out in all. So doesn't this mean the Dark One should already have broken free?

 

This is why Oriental philosophy/theology has no hold on.. it's simply mad :p!

 

But then again, the Dark One actually not being a part of the Pattern, but instead being superior to it and existing outside of it like the Creator.. this could mean that although everything that is happening has already happening, is happening and will happen forever more in a constant stagnation, no progress.. gah anyway, Shai'tan is not a part of the Pattern so is not technically a part of that.. sorry, my brain's been confuddled thinking about this :p!

[moroten]

But there is a paradox that he hasn't taken into account. The creator exists outside of time. The creation of all of Randland and I mean all of Randland every infinite second, every infinite variable were created at once. Time plays out in a cyclical nature meaning what happens has happened before infinite times and infinite variables. Each age is slightly different until infinity where it repeats exactly the same. Yeah, doesn't make sense on a human level lol.

 

This means that if the DO was freed he would have already been freed in the past or the future. The only catch is that if the DO breaks free maybe it's not included in the pattern but even the DO admitted that he does not operate outside of time.

 

Oh I know, I started a thread about this, or very close to, a while ago but I think it was lost when the forums were updated. There are infinite variations of the Pattern. If Rand turned left one day whilst pacing, or right, a mirror-world would exist in which he moved in the opposite direction. And those mirror-world's substantiality rely on the chances of them being a true possibility. Assuming that TG is going to go down on a razor's edge, then a mirror-world with true substantiality will be thrown up in which the Dark One does win and break free. As Verin said, there is only one Prison and one Dark One. If he breaks free in one world he breaks out in all. So doesn't this mean the Dark One should already have broken free?

 

This is why Oriental philosophy/theology has no hold on.. it's simply mad :p!

 

But then again, the Dark One actually not being a part of the Pattern, but instead being superior to it and existing outside of it like the Creator.. this could mean that although everything that is happening has already happening, is happening and will happen forever more in a constant stagnation, no progress.. gah anyway, Shai'tan is not a part of the Pattern so is not technically a part of that.. sorry, my brain's been confuddled thinking about this :p!

 

But we HAVE seen examples of worlds were the DO won. In tGH when Hurin, Rand and Loial gets yanked into another version of their world they see its completly different cause thats a world were the DO won the battle vs light.

[Jon Paul]

But we HAVE seen examples of worlds were the DO won. In tGH when Hurin, Rand and Loial gets yanked into another version of their world they see its completly different cause thats a world were the DO won the battle vs light.

 

No, that was a mirror-world in which the Shadowspawn defeated Hawking and over-ran the known world (between the Aryth Ocean and the Spine of the World, and the Blight and the Sea of Storms). The Dark One isn't an evil villain sitting in a high tower twisting his moustache whilst watching the poor wee lass tied to the train tracks struggle to get free. The Dark One is simply Chaos. He's not even evil. He's simply Chaotic. If he wins, there is no Pattern.

 

And remember, as Verin said, if the Dark One breaks free in one world, he breaks free in all worlds. There's only one Shai'tan, there's only one Prison.

[threadnecromancer]

But we HAVE seen examples of worlds were the DO won. In tGH when Hurin, Rand and Loial gets yanked into another version of their world they see its completly different cause thats a world were the DO won the battle vs light.

 

No, that was a mirror-world in which the Shadowspawn defeated Hawking and over-ran the known world (between the Aryth Ocean and the Spine of the World, and the Blight and the Sea of Storms). The Dark One isn't an evil villain sitting in a high tower twisting his moustache whilst watching the poor wee lass tied to the train tracks struggle to get free. The Dark One is simply Chaos. He's not even evil. He's simply Chaotic. If he wins, there is no Pattern.

 

And remember, as Verin said, if the Dark One breaks free in one world, he breaks free in all worlds. There's only one Shai'tan, there's only one Prison.

 

But by that same token should there not be a world in which the attempt to seal the Bore failed? It seemed that the light was on the verge of total defeat prior to the strike on Shayol Ghul so shouldn't the Dark One have escaped there?

[Byzantine279]

It is a complicated meta-physical matter that we, as human beings, are simply no good at comprehending. Fortunately, Elan really wasn't any better at comprehending it then us since his conclusion that the Shadow MUST win is false.

 

As for what Verin said: We all seem to have simply discounted the possibility that she lied or was wrong. Or that what she said simply doesn't mean what we think it does, which would be typical considering "Aes Sedai answers".

 

I think the chance of the DO winning at each turning is something like 1 (the actual number is irrelevant, any constant works) divided by infinity. That means that the odds of him succeeding are infinitely small. It also means that if you spin the wheel an infinite number of time you get infinity divided by infinity. Which, as anyone who has taken calc knows, is a mathematical nightmare that cannot be computed on its own. As such, there is no way to know if he is going to succeed or fail. (yes, it seems like it would be 1, thus certain, but that is not true).

[Colonel_Sanders]

It is a complicated meta-physical matter that we, as human beings, are simply no good at comprehending. Fortunately, Elan really wasn't any better at comprehending it then us since his conclusion that the Shadow MUST win is false.

 

As for what Verin said: We all seem to have simply discounted the possibility that she lied or was wrong. Or that what she said simply doesn't mean what we think it does, which would be typical considering "Aes Sedai answers".

 

I think the chance of the DO winning at each turning is something like 1 (the actual number is irrelevant, any constant works) divided by infinity. That means that the odds of him succeeding are infinitely small. It also means that if you spin the wheel an infinite number of time you get infinity divided by infinity. Which, as anyone who has taken calc knows, is a mathematical nightmare that cannot be computed on its own. As such, there is no way to know if he is going to succeed or fail. (yes, it seems like it would be 1, thus certain, but that is not true).

 

I am unsure how you can decided he is incorrect? You use the assumption first that the probability of him escaping effectivly zero when there is nothing to back that up. Anybody could pull a random figure from the air to back up a theory, (I realise you said you think but you also said he must be false which is a definate not an opinion) any other denominator would make your theory incorrect as eventually the shadow will win.

 

I don't mean to sound rude or anything sorry.

 

Anyway hello everyone, long time reader first time poster

[Byzantine279]

It is a complicated meta-physical matter that we, as human beings, are simply no good at comprehending. Fortunately, Elan really wasn't any better at comprehending it then us since his conclusion that the Shadow MUST win is false.

 

As for what Verin said: We all seem to have simply discounted the possibility that she lied or was wrong. Or that what she said simply doesn't mean what we think it does, which would be typical considering "Aes Sedai answers".

 

I think the chance of the DO winning at each turning is something like 1 (the actual number is irrelevant, any constant works) divided by infinity. That means that the odds of him succeeding are infinitely small. It also means that if you spin the wheel an infinite number of time you get infinity divided by infinity. Which, as anyone who has taken calc knows, is a mathematical nightmare that cannot be computed on its own. As such, there is no way to know if he is going to succeed or fail. (yes, it seems like it would be 1, thus certain, but that is not true).

 

I am unsure how you can decided he is incorrect? You use the assumption first that the probability of him escaping effectivly zero when there is nothing to back that up. Anybody could pull a random figure from the air to back up a theory, (I realise you said you think but you also said he must be false which is a definate not an opinion) any other denominator would make your theory incorrect as eventually the shadow will win.

 

I don't mean to sound rude or anything sorry.

 

Anyway hello everyone, long time reader first time poster

 

 

Yes, I'm aware of that. But as has been stated earlier the Shadow has NOT won yet. The cycle has already played itself through an infinite number of times. The only way in which the DO still has a chance of winning is if it is infinitely small since otherwise he would have already won by now, an infinite number of times, actually. Otherwise they are right and the DO has no chance at all, but i don't like the idea that the Shadow wouldn't win even if the light just sat there and let them come.

 

As for me dismissing Elan as wrong, it is simply because mathematically, and logically, the DO either has a 0% chance of winning or an infinitely finite one, and neither are the "certain victory" Elan believes in.

[Colonel_Sanders]

It is a complicated meta-physical matter that we, as human beings, are simply no good at comprehending. Fortunately, Elan really wasn't any better at comprehending it then us since his conclusion that the Shadow MUST win is false.

 

As for what Verin said: We all seem to have simply discounted the possibility that she lied or was wrong. Or that what she said simply doesn't mean what we think it does, which would be typical considering "Aes Sedai answers".

 

I think the chance of the DO winning at each turning is something like 1 (the actual number is irrelevant, any constant works) divided by infinity. That means that the odds of him succeeding are infinitely small. It also means that if you spin the wheel an infinite number of time you get infinity divided by infinity. Which, as anyone who has taken calc knows, is a mathematical nightmare that cannot be computed on its own. As such, there is no way to know if he is going to succeed or fail. (yes, it seems like it would be 1, thus certain, but that is not true).

 

I am unsure how you can decided he is incorrect? You use the assumption first that the probability of him escaping effectivly zero when there is nothing to back that up. Anybody could pull a random figure from the air to back up a theory, (I realise you said you think but you also said he must be false which is a definate not an opinion) any other denominator would make your theory incorrect as eventually the shadow will win.

 

I don't mean to sound rude or anything sorry.

 

Anyway hello everyone, long time reader first time poster

 

 

Yes, I'm aware of that. But as has been stated earlier the Shadow has NOT won yet. The cycle has already played itself through an infinite number of times. The only way in which the DO still has a chance of winning is if it is infinitely small since otherwise he would have already won by now, an infinite number of times, actually. Otherwise they are right and the DO has no chance at all, but i don't like the idea that the Shadow wouldn't win even if the light just sat there and let them come.

 

As for me dismissing Elan as wrong, it is simply because mathematically, and logically, the DO either has a 0% chance of winning or an infinitely finite one, and neither are the "certain victory" Elan believes in.

 

Infinitely finite is a contridiction in terms but that is beside the point, either there is a 0% chance which is just crazy or there is a chance however small which just makes it an inevitability, and the fact it hasnt happened yet cannot be used to deduce that it will not happen as inductive reasoning cannot be used in a situation where there are probabilities

[Byzantine279]

It is a complicated meta-physical matter that we, as human beings, are simply no good at comprehending. Fortunately, Elan really wasn't any better at comprehending it then us since his conclusion that the Shadow MUST win is false.

 

As for what Verin said: We all seem to have simply discounted the possibility that she lied or was wrong. Or that what she said simply doesn't mean what we think it does, which would be typical considering "Aes Sedai answers".

 

I think the chance of the DO winning at each turning is something like 1 (the actual number is irrelevant, any constant works) divided by infinity. That means that the odds of him succeeding are infinitely small. It also means that if you spin the wheel an infinite number of time you get infinity divided by infinity. Which, as anyone who has taken calc knows, is a mathematical nightmare that cannot be computed on its own. As such, there is no way to know if he is going to succeed or fail. (yes, it seems like it would be 1, thus certain, but that is not true).

 

I am unsure how you can decided he is incorrect? You use the assumption first that the probability of him escaping effectivly zero when there is nothing to back that up. Anybody could pull a random figure from the air to back up a theory, (I realise you said you think but you also said he must be false which is a definate not an opinion) any other denominator would make your theory incorrect as eventually the shadow will win.

 

I don't mean to sound rude or anything sorry.

 

Anyway hello everyone, long time reader first time poster

 

 

Yes, I'm aware of that. But as has been stated earlier the Shadow has NOT won yet. The cycle has already played itself through an infinite number of times. The only way in which the DO still has a chance of winning is if it is infinitely small since otherwise he would have already won by now, an infinite number of times, actually. Otherwise they are right and the DO has no chance at all, but i don't like the idea that the Shadow wouldn't win even if the light just sat there and let them come.

 

As for me dismissing Elan as wrong, it is simply because mathematically, and logically, the DO either has a 0% chance of winning or an infinitely finite one, and neither are the "certain victory" Elan believes in.

 

Infinitely finite is a contridiction in terms but that is beside the point, either there is a 0% chance which is just crazy or there is a chance however small which just makes it an inevitability, and the fact it hasnt happened yet cannot be used to deduce that it will not happen as inductive reasoning cannot be used in a situation where there are probabilities

 

 

It is an oxymoron typically, but this in case I'm using it to describe the mathematical concept of 1/infinity, which is smaller than can be imagined, yet not exactly 0.

 

Wrong. If there was a small chance greater than any number divided by infinity then it would have already happened. The wheel has ALREADY turned an INFINITE number of times. As such, it is only possible for their to be the two cases I have mentioned, because any other possibilities would have already resulted in a victory. It can be used when an infinite number of trials has taken place.