Super Spoiler PoV

[sleepinghour]

Nynaeve doesn't have the same skill with Compulsion that Graendal does. First off, Graendal is making an assumption that Nyn knows how to "read" the Compulsion weaves. Something we have not heard meantioned before. Nynaeve has seen a weave or two fo Compulsion, but certainly has not seen all of the intricate ways it can be woven.

 

I don't mean that Nynaeve knows as much about Compulsion as Graendal, just that she has the raw Talent for it as strongly since it's similar to Healing. And since Nynaeve mostly works by instinct when she Heals, I can see her figuring out how to "read" Compulsion if she only got the idea to try it. At the moment, though, she doesn't know how or even that it can be done.

[aunt_pol]

 

Perrins POV - He has acheived great success, and has hit a few pitfalls - but nothing even close to what Rand (and half the other characters in the book) have dealt with.

 

 

Em, His entire family was eaten by Trollocs.

 

Elayne's the only other that lost close family, and she'll soon discover her mother's alive.

I'm not sayin' he's not a moany whingebag, but he does have some small cause.

Fain's and his whitecloaks killed them.

 

Of course, you're quite right Charlz. I forgot that, and was just remembering Perrin's PoV of the whole thing.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

Perrins POV - He has acheived great success, and has hit a few pitfalls - but nothing even close to what Rand (and half the other characters in the book) have dealt with.

 

 

Em, His entire family was eaten by Trollocs.

 

Elayne's the only other that lost close family, and she'll soon discover her mother's alive.

I'm not sayin' he's not a moany whingebag, but he does have some small cause.

Fain's and his whitecloaks killed them.

 

Of course, you're quite right Charlz. I forgot that, and was just remembering Perrin's PoV of the whole thing.

 

While this is true, I dont think Perrin would really appreciate the distinction.

 

His family is still dead or

[aunt_pol]

Actually I'd say it'd make the loss harder. Whitecloaks are supposed to be good. Confused, and way over zealous, and filled with gobshites like Byar, but not mindless like Trollocs.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Actually I'd say it'd make the loss harder. Whitecloaks are supposed to be good. Confused, and way over zealous, and filled with gobshites like Byar, but not mindless like Trollocs.

 

Again, I dont think Perrin would care about the distinction.

 

This is an objective, almost philisophical way of thinking. People dont usually do that when their whole family dies. Perhaps years after, but i doubt he wouyld be thinking "oh, at least it was better than people. Trollocs are inherently cruel, they cant help it. It would be tragic to see a human decend into such depravity."

 

Id think he would be more worried about hsi family and how much they suffered.

 

We have whitecloaks "Burn the Farm, kill his people. Perhaps questioning involved, although Fain in this instance just went crazy and killed them."

 

and Trollocs. they cook and eat the bodies of the dead. They have no mercy, and are extremely cruel.

 

I tell you, I would rather my family get killed by whitecloaks than suffer the horrors of a Trolloc slaughter.

[aunt_pol]

True enough- of course, it's the kind of secret that just HAS to come out.

[Barid Bel Medar]

True enough- of course, it's the kind of secret that just HAS to come out.

 

Oh yes, its like dangling a piece of meat in front of a lion (or should I say wolf?) in regards to storyline.

 

It will definitely cause some big commotion.

[aunt_pol]

Yep. Boss man Galadedrid is not gonna be happy. Ha, imagine him meeting Fain. Don't think it's likely, but it would be fun.

[aunt_pol]

I'm still trying to articulate my thoughts on the whole Trolloc cookpot death vs Whitecloak fire death. I guess its the difference between someone you live being killed by wild animals and them being killed by regular people. I get your point, it's not something you'd sit weighing up the pros and cons, and there prob was a bit less suffering, but there's something harder to understand about people killing people.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I'm still trying to articulate my thoughts on the whole Trolloc cookpot death vs Whitecloak fire death. I guess its the difference between someone you live being killed by wild animals and them being killed by regular people. I get your point, it's not something you'd sit weighing up the pros and cons, and there prob was a bit less suffering, but there's something harder to understand about people killing people.

 

Yeah, I get what you are saying.

 

But to compare a trolloc to a "wild animal" I dont think is correct.

 

They ARE half wild animal, but also half human.

 

I think it really is difficult to say, because we do not have a real life comparison to a Trolloc. These things were bread for evil, with crude human intelligence. They ARE evil. Not like just an animal. They delight in cruelty.

 

The closest I think you could relate in real life would be the whitecloaks and medieval torturers V Trollocs being murderers who delight in pain and suffering.

 

But it depends on how you personally read the Trollocs. But I equate it to being somewhat like "demons" in Christian faith. They are inherently evil, Id rather a person kill me than a demon kinda thing....

 

As I said, its extremely hard to explain/compare.

[Charlz Guybon]

I'm still trying to articulate my thoughts on the whole Trolloc cookpot death vs Whitecloak fire death. I guess its the difference between someone you live being killed by wild animals and them being killed by regular people. I get your point, it's not something you'd sit weighing up the pros and cons, and there prob was a bit less suffering, but there's something harder to understand about people killing people.

 

Yeah, I get what you are saying.

 

But to compare a trolloc to a "wild animal" I dont think is correct.

 

They ARE half wild animal, but also half human.

 

I think it really is difficult to say, because we do not have a real life comparison to a Trolloc. These things were bread for evil, with crude human intelligence.

 

They're smarter than people give them credit for. They can forge iron, speak and write in a runic alphabet. Some can even learn the human language.

[Luckers]

At the very least there is potential drama in Perrin learning that Bornhald covered up Fain killing Perrin's folk.

[Musenge_09]

At the very least there is potential drama in Perrin learning that Bornhald covered up Fain killing Perrin's folk.

 

 

I agree. Something I see as likely is this info being a trigger that sends Perrin into hammer-wielding death mode and doing something significant to the overall story (freeing Galad? Killing some as-yet unrevealed high-up DF's amongst the WC's? Acting as a catalyst for the WC's being brought completely under the umbrella of the good guys pre-Last Battle?).

 

However I think this book will also be the one where Perrin (finally) starts to reconcile himself with the fact of his uniqueness and importance, and I think a key to his doing this is an acceptance that when he loses it and goes wolf for a while, he's actually pretty bad-arse, and if he can control those explosions to some extent he's going to be one of the Light's most powerful weapons in the coming days/weeks/months. By accepting this and not fighting it all the time he can finally do what he has always wanted, and tame it to some extent.

 

Reading back over that, I realise it sounds a little bit "give in to your anger", but I don't mean it like that. I mean that the aggression and violence of the wolf are a part of Perrin, as much as his compassion, loyalty and sense of duty, and that by denying that part of himself he turns it into a negative that he feels he has to avoid at all costs, when it it actually a powerful tool that he can harness to his and the Light's benefit, if only he can accept that.

[TreeJoe]

Small chance, but I wonder if Perrin will forgive Byar and Bornhald for their past actions against him, thereby helping THEM realize they have not turned so far from the light that they can't come back.

 

What amazes me is how few whitecloaks actually realized how far gone their organization was....

[nnokwoodeye]

It got me wondering about how Graendal might ultimately be defeated, and I think I have an idea (but I'm half way down a nice bottle of wine, so you have been warned). We've seen how meticulously Graendal plans everything. Even her escape plans have escape plans. She's obsessive about it. She has seen Cuendillar Rand, and is scared. He's much more dangerous than she had ever imagined. That will feature in all her future plans: how to avoid/manipulate/trap Rand the big bad matri-coital channeller of doom, teetering at the edge of the chasm of total insanity. The man who doesn't even blink before channelling enough balefire to rend the Pattern beyond repair.

 

...only he's not like that any more. The healing has begun. It may take some time, but Rand is no longer a taut string balanced on a knife edge and ready to explode at the drop of a hat (to murder my metaphors by dropping them into boiling water). After all this time underestimating Rand, I wonder if Graendal might now overestimate him. I think we will see, either in ToM or (more likely) in MoL that Graendal weaves a cunning web to capture Cuendillar Rand, only to discover that Just Plain Rand doesn't so much defeat her trap as walk right around it.

 

I'm looking forward to finding out.

 

 

I've been thinking the same thing.

I wouldn't be surprise if she would think that the new softer rand is some kind of a ruse to get his enemies to underestimate him (just like she herself did by exaggerating her "pleasures") and when he wouldn't react to her manipulation the way she anticipated she would think he is on to her and look for hidden meanings in his actions to try to figure out what he plans for her.

 

When I found out she is still alive I was disappointed because it seem fitting that the local chess master would die by a ridiculously simple plan, but if she would spend the rest of the book trapped in a "wilderness of mirrors", fighting against a shadowy rand that exists only in her head, it would be totally worth it

[Grig]

Small chance, but I wonder if Perrin will forgive Byar and Bornhald for their past actions against him, thereby helping THEM realize they have not turned so far from the light that they can't come back.

 

What amazes me is how few whitecloaks actually realized how far gone their organization was....

 

 

I know Perrin is a pushover, but if he "forgives" someone that took orders from and covered up for the person who murdered his entire family over an offhanded insult, the character is dead to me in a way that he never could have been in the darkest of the Faile days. That just is not believable or desirable. After Jason's review, it seems the most believable/likely path is him gaining Byar/Bornhald's respect, and somehow finding out (whether they tell him or another of the Whitecloaks does) that Fain was traveling with the Whitecloaks and while doing so murdered his family. This will set him off, and be the source of his angst that pushes him to almost lose himself to the wolf. Maybe he'll end up making peace with Byar/Bornhald as part of his becoming human again, but forgiveness would simply break suspension of disbelief.

[mikael]

Small chance, but I wonder if Perrin will forgive Byar and Bornhald for their past actions against him, thereby helping THEM realize they have not turned so far from the light that they can't come back.

 

What amazes me is how few whitecloaks actually realized how far gone their organization was....

 

 

I know Perrin is a pushover, but if he "forgives" someone that took orders from and covered up for the person who murdered his entire family over an offhanded insult, the character is dead to me in a way that he never could have been in the darkest of the Faile days. That just is not believable or desirable. After Jason's review, it seems the most believable/likely path is him gaining Byar/Bornhald's respect, and somehow finding out (whether they tell him or another of the Whitecloaks does) that Fain was traveling with the Whitecloaks and while doing so murdered his family. This will set him off, and be the source of his angst that pushes him to almost lose himself to the wolf. Maybe he'll end up making peace with Byar/Bornhald as part of his becoming human again, but forgiveness would simply break suspension of disbelief.

 

Well put, but it depends theme is dominant. Id say its a pretty popular thing to do to let characters forgive their tormentors in order to maintain their humanity... I dont really see him murdering them, but then again, maybe theres some over the brink events in the future of Perrins story. Dont remember where I was going with this, but its pretty much a no win situation. Cant really start off the relationship with Galad by killing his closest ally, nor can he ignore what the WCs have done to him. One interesting thing will be to see how Galad reacts to the whole thing, the "right" thing would be to hold the WCs that were present responsible, no?

 

Btw, is Byar/Bornhald tainted by Fain so that they could never trust Perrin?

[crazyone]

Graendal crept through the camp, careful that no one noticed her. She was approaching the tent where that Min girl slept...thinking all the while "I will use the TP and balefire this little chit just like I did that traitor Asmodean". Suddenly she hears a noise behind her...she turns..

"YOU!!!....NO!!!"

 

*and now we are left with the arguement of Who killed Graendal?

[aunt_pol]

Small chance, but I wonder if Perrin will forgive Byar and Bornhald for their past actions against him, thereby helping THEM realize they have not turned so far from the light that they can't come back.

 

What amazes me is how few whitecloaks actually realized how far gone their organization was....

 

 

I know Perrin is a pushover, but if he "forgives" someone that took orders from and covered up for the person who murdered his entire family over an offhanded insult, the character is dead to me in a way that he never could have been in the darkest of the Faile days. That just is not believable or desirable. After Jason's review, it seems the most believable/likely path is him gaining Byar/Bornhald's respect, and somehow finding out (whether they tell him or another of the Whitecloaks does) that Fain was traveling with the Whitecloaks and while doing so murdered his family. This will set him off, and be the source of his angst that pushes him to almost lose himself to the wolf. Maybe he'll end up making peace with Byar/Bornhald as part of his becoming human again, but forgiveness would simply break suspension of disbelief.

 

Well put, but it depends theme is dominant. Id say its a pretty popular thing to do to let characters forgive their tormentors in order to maintain their humanity... I dont really see him murdering them, but then again, maybe theres some over the brink events in the future of Perrins story. Dont remember where I was going with this, but its pretty much a no win situation. Cant really start off the relationship with Galad by killing his closest ally, nor can he ignore what the WCs have done to him. One interesting thing will be to see how Galad reacts to the whole thing, the "right" thing would be to hold the WCs that were present responsible, no?

 

Btw, is Byar/Bornhald tainted by Fain so that they could never trust Perrin?

 

 

Galad could be key to that. He gets to the bottom of the whole thing, finds out precisely what if any part Byar and Bornhald played in the massacre, and either

A: offers the taking of their heads to Perrin, while helping Perrin to understand that sometimes it's hard to do the right thing but it must always be done,

or

B: decides that as Children who did a terrible thing, they are subject to Whitecloak internal law and executes them himself.

I could easily see Galad, once he gets his legs under him, orchestrating a Great Purge of his own. God knows it's needed.

[Mr Hindley]

Graendal crept through the camp, careful that no one noticed her. She was approaching the tent where that Min girl slept...thinking all the while "I will use the TP and balefire this little chit just like I did that traitor Asmodean". Suddenly she hears a noise behind her...she turns..

"YOU!!!....NO!!!"

 

*and now we are left with the arguement of Who killed Graendal?

 

If you ask me Who Killed Graendal, it's just got to be Asmodean. Come on - it's not called the Wheel of Time for nothing!

[MichaelJG]

 

Galad could be key to that. He gets to the bottom of the whole thing, finds out precisely what if any part Byar and Bornhald played in the massacre, and either

A: offers the taking of their heads to Perrin, while helping Perrin to understand that sometimes it's hard to do the right thing but it must always be done,

or

B: decides that as Children who did a terrible thing, they are subject to Whitecloak internal law and executes them himself.

I could easily see Galad, once he gets his legs under him, orchestrating a Great Purge of his own. God knows it's needed.

 

 

That's true. In addition, I hope to see Galad do something about the hatred for the WT the Children have. I really can't see him letting that slide under his command considering he has family that is AS and tower trained. Plus he and Gawyn trained in the WT and he cared for the woman who became the Amyrlin Seat, not to mention helping Nynaeve and Elayne during his tenure as a Whitecloak. Then there is the fact that Gareth Bryne and Gawyn will both likely be warders. I can easily see him doing something to blunt the hatred amongst the Children for those who use the OP.

[aunt_pol]

Yeah, Galad has the potential to be really rather cool. And of course, if he did decide to beat some sense into his brother, well then *obviously* it'd be just the Right Thing to do...

[nnokwoodeye]

Graendal crept through the camp, careful that no one noticed her. She was approaching the tent where that Min girl slept...thinking all the while "I will use the TP and balefire this little chit just like I did that traitor Asmodean". Suddenly she hears a noise behind her...she turns..

"YOU!!!....NO!!!"

 

*and now we are left with the arguement of Who killed Graendal?

 

The Graendal who was killed was actually Cadsuane in disguise; she was compelled to kill Min in that form by the real Graendal, to mess with Rand mind. but before the plan was executed Graendal saw Rand give a coin to a small beggar child, and figured that the child was the real Min and that the person in the tent was just a decoy, so she quickly balfired Cadusane to get rid of the evidence.

[Diederichos]

In regards to End of a Legend/Grandal-Cadsuane. Wouldn't it be nice if Cads died while protecting someone/thing important from Graendal, maybe took her out in the process or maybe not(likely not given that this is supposed to be a dark book). And then maybe an involuntary/solitary tear comes from Rand and he's surprised by it as he dabs at it. Maybe he comments on her 'teach him laughter and tears' bit. That'd be ironic for you.

[Cyf]

Hope not, I can't stand Cadsuane. :)

 

As for me, I thought this was a little convenient, but it didn't bother me too much. I'd have been rather upset if the big blast of balefire didn't get anyone. Then it would have been just over the top. While this isn't a DEM (the idea of True Power, weaves that only the True Power can do such as Healing Madness temporarily, and so on are all established), the entire sequence of events is very specific and convenient in order to get Graendal out of there.

 

Still looking forward to this book, though. And I'm sad there was no Mat POV.