Thing In The Blight PoV

[Rcurran]

I don't know the exact ins and outs but someone here must, God created the heavens and the earth then this then that, in WOT there was a moment if creation when it's all happened at once in Christianity there was a period of creation.

 

Lucifer rebelled in heaven and was cast down. Lucifer is categorically not a God.

 

The dark one came about at the moment of creation. This is how I see the debate - you're saying the Dark one is the antithesis of the Creator. I'm saying he is not - rather the Dark One is the Antithesis of /creation/.

 

Very different I'm sure but maybe I'm being silly. Anyone with me....? Ah no, didn't think so!

[DocBean]

When exactly was Birgitte risen from dead and where exactly it says that dead cannot be brought back to life? Ofcourse a mortal cannot do it. Isn't Wheel bringing EVERY dead back to life all the time? This book is neither yours nor mine so our "believes" don't matter.

 

 

I never said the dead cannot be brought back to life. I was addressing your comment that everything I posted about previously was "nonsense"

One part of my post was about Birgitte's resurrection. I'm explaining why you were wrong in saying that was nonsense.

Birgitte's body was dead and gone. Correct?

Her soul was in T'A'R.

Her soul was pulled into the real world by Moggy.

She is now Alive in a mortal body.

 

That's resurrection, and Neither the Creator, nor the Dark One played a role in that.

 

 

As for killing the Dark One. We can go back and forth all day.

There are 7 Spokes. Each spoke represents an Age.

So it's reasonable to assume that the same 7 Ages are destined to repeat themselves over and over again.

We know Rand's Age (the third age) is an age long past and an age yet to come.

Which means the same age will happen over again, Which is why RJ said it's not unique.

However, that doesn't mean the 3rd age is not unique compared to other ages, or the 2nd Age.

 

We know at the beginning of creation the Dark One was sealed outside of the pattern.

The first Age started spinning, we don't know what else happened. Dinosaurs maybe?

We know in the 2nd age (The Age of Legends) The Dark One was released from a prison, and Lews sealed him back up.

In the 3rd Age, Rand will have to deal with him again.

There are a lot of ages to come before the Dark One needs to be sealed back up like the original seal.

However, there is nothing saying it won't happen before the 1st age comes back around.

Beyond the 2nd and 3rd Age we know NOTHING.

 

You can't say that the Champion of Light hasn't killed the Dark One before.

We know Rand has the knowledge of ALL of his past lives.

Why would you think Rand is less powerful now then he's been in the past?

We KNOW he's more powerful now then Lews was, what's to say he's not more powerful in the 3rd Age then any other?

 

There is NOTHING in the books anywhere that says definitively that the Dark One cannot die, or that he doesn't want to die.

 

We KNOW that the Forsaken can be sealed up in the Bore. Why not Fain?

What is the bore if not a hole in the pattern? Most of them did not Age at all; therefore, it's reasonable to say the pattern did not touch the Forsaken that were deep inside.

Therefor, It's reasonable to say they were bound outside the Pattern.

[jdbond]

DO was NEVER released from his prison. Rand remembered his past life only because of taint or some other mechanism which resurrected LTT in his mind. LTT never had this problem. And yes Rand is lame compared to LTT.We DON"T know if Rand is more powerful than LTT. It's just your "belief". He is only a shadow of LTT and (was)is guided by a dead man.Peace.

[jdbond]

I don't know the exact ins and outs but someone here must, God created the heavens and the earth then this then that, in WOT there was a moment if creation when it's all happened at once in Christianity there was a period of creation.

 

 

Not in the books. Obviously people in WOT don't have religion so they have very primitive knowledge of all thing Creator.

 

Lucifer rebelled in heaven and was cast down. Lucifer is categorically not a God.

 

According to God or us? What is a God?

 

The dark one came about at the moment of creation. This is how I see the debate - you're saying the Dark one is the antithesis of the Creator. I'm saying he is not - rather the Dark One is the Antithesis of /creation/.

 

Book clearly proves that people in Randland have no clue about Creation, Creator and DO. And what exactly is antithesis of creation? Creator created anti-thesis of creation? Too much theology for my taste. I won't say it's exactly Christianity but name Shai'tan itself is a GIANT clue! It's Satan you know;)

 

Very different I'm sure but maybe I'm being silly. Anyone with me....? Ah no, didn't think so!

 

 

I am not a theist so such blasphemous ideas don't bother me.

[DocBean]

DO was NEVER released from his prison. Rand remembered his past life only because of taint or some other mechanism which resurrected LTT in his mind. LTT never had this problem. And yes Rand is lame compared to LTT.We DON"T know if Rand is more powerful than LTT. It's just your "belief". He is only a shadow of LTT and (was)is guided by a dead man.Peace.

 

Have you read Veins of Gold?

Rand remembers ALL of his past lives.

There is another character who could do that too - Birgitte.

Her memories are fading, we don't know if Rand's will.

 

His memories of all of his past lives WILL make him more powerful then LTT.

[Rcurran]

@jdbond

 

I'm not a theologist or religious at all, so no real authority. I did go to a Catholic school and have a Catholic family so I know some things. I'm also wanting to avoid offending anyone and also it's worth saying that of course RJ was a master of combining many ideas to create new ones an there are many wonderful examples throughout the books.

 

Anyway I just wanted to get that disclaimer out the way then say explain what I meant in my last post. Satan is not considered a God in Christianity, Judaism or Islam. Satan is something else. I think there is a corrolory between this and the WOT, the Creator is "God" and there is only 1 God. The Dark One is not a God but merely the opposite of the essence of creation. As the "Creator" the "God" in WOT has one primary role - to create the world. The Creators only output was Creation, a result of this was that the Dark One (which is how we characterise a concept which is much larger than the words themselves) came into being, as part if the necessary principle of balance. This means that the Dark One is not the opposite of the Creator but of Creation itself.

 

Equally the One Power is not the essence of the creator yet the it is the power which sustains the Creators only significant contribution to this whole schema. The pattern is the long term mechanics of the Creators vision. In his infinite wisdom the creator sealed the balancing elements to his creation on the opposite side ofthe pattern, which were ultimately discovered by mankind. The dark one which is a combination of destruction and the opposite of the one power has developed a degree of personality and when we see that in action we assume, because of his power that he is somehow a God. Unfortunately that's not the case as if he were a God then simply destroying in the way the Creator creates wouldn't rely on using creations - eg people, to further his goals.

 

Thatsjustmyopinion.com

[Loophole]

Food for thought.

 

The creator didn't create anything. The creator only existed after he created something you cant really call it the creator without anything created hehe.

 

Anyway the way I see it is the creator and DO are two sides of one coin. I think any of them killing the DO would be silly, but however it goes down I am sure it will be awesome.

[Maji]

DO was NEVER released from his prison. Rand remembered his past life only because of taint or some other mechanism which resurrected LTT in his mind. LTT never had this problem. And yes Rand is lame compared to LTT.We DON"T know if Rand is more powerful than LTT. It's just your "belief". He is only a shadow of LTT and (was)is guided by a dead man.Peace.

 

Have you read Veins of Gold?

Rand remembers ALL of his past lives.

There is another character who could do that too - Birgitte.

Her memories are fading, we don't know if Rand's will.

 

His memories of all of his past lives WILL make him more powerful then LTT.

 

I don't know if it will make him more powerful than LTT, it has not been confirmed if LTT had the knowledge of his past lives or not. Just because he was crazy in Rand's head isn't conclusive enough to determine that. Rand will definitely have a few cards (read: tricks) up his sleeve with this new wealth of knowledge though.

[Lisa Campbell]

There are 7 Spokes. Each spoke represents an Age.

So it's reasonable to assume that the same 7 Ages are destined to repeat themselves over and over again.

 

Hi guys, I've never been one to look for really in depth facts or to keep up with all interviews etc. so this statement has me a little confused because I'm not sure where these "facts" are coming from.

 

Mathematically speaking, if you have a wheel with 7 spokes you will have 8 segments. So are there 8 ages or only 6 spokes. Can someone clear this up for me please?

[wvlr2]

Mathematically speaking, if you have a wheel with 7 spokes you will have 8 segments. So are there 8 ages or only 6 spokes. Can someone clear this up for me please?

Not sure what kind of math you are using, but if you draw a circle with 7 spokes, it has 7 gaps between the spokes.

[Sid]

Mathematically speaking, if you have a wheel with 7 spokes you will have 8 segments. So are there 8 ages or only 6 spokes. Can someone clear this up for me please?

Not sure what kind of math you are using, but if you draw a circle with 7 spokes, it has 7 gaps between the spokes.

Yeah, a straight line with seven notches in in creates 8 line segments, but in a circle the first and last would be connected to each other

[Lisa Campbell]

been a long day, yeah I was thinking in straight line not circle, whoops

[Rcurran]

I thunk you are all wrong no matter what you're saying. In always right and j know everything. RJ used to phone me up and be all 'what's the dark one? how's the wheel work? how many spokes does it have?'

 

Of course I'd help him out a lot but sometimes I'd just say 'write and find out' and you know what? He did.

[Rcurran]

Mostly I was just like 'man, stop phoning me! jeeeeebus!'

[Ashaman Kovan]

I'd say that in the WoT universe the DO is pretty much a god, yes. Maybe one limited by a more powerful god, but still basically a god. The Dark ONE.

He only has to use tools, like the Forsaken and such because he's bound. Look at the way he's been able to affect the world and the pattern just by being partially free.

I'm not really sure where this argument came from or where it was intended to go, but I think it's at least safe to say that in WoT terms the DO is a "god".

[Ashajaan06]

I'd say that in the WoT universe the DO is pretty much a god, yes. Maybe one limited by a more powerful god, but still basically a god. The Dark ONE.

He only has to use tools, like the Forsaken and such because he's bound. Look at the way he's been able to affect the world and the pattern just by being partially free.

I'm not really sure where this argument came from or where it was intended to go, but I think it's at least safe to say that in WoT terms the DO is a "god".

 

Certainly one of the coolest POVs! I've always thought the GLOD/DO/Shaitan is the equal opposite of the Creator and I agree with someone up who said there may be similarities between the Mistborn deities and WOT deities. As for the name Shaitan, its arabic for Satan but i think the similarities between Abrahamic theology and WOT end there. Its more Hinduism/eastern religion based- Brahma/Creator, Shiva/the Dark One and Rand/Preserver. Anyway there's my opinion..cant wait for NOV 2! :D

[Sharaman]

I'd say that in the WoT universe the DO is pretty much a god, yes. Maybe one limited by a more powerful god, but still basically a god. The Dark ONE.

He only has to use tools, like the Forsaken and such because he's bound. Look at the way he's been able to affect the world and the pattern just by being partially free.

I'm not really sure where this argument came from or where it was intended to go, but I think it's at least safe to say that in WoT terms the DO is a "god".

 

Certainly one of the coolest POVs! I've always thought the GLOD/DO/Shaitan is the equal opposite of the Creator and I agree with someone up who said there may be similarities between the Mistborn deities and WOT deities. As for the name Shaitan, its arabic for Satan but i think the similarities between Abrahamic theology and WOT end there. Its more Hinduism/eastern religion based- Brahma/Creator, Shiva/the Dark One and Rand/Preserver. Anyway there's my opinion..cant wait for NOV 2! :D

Not much similarity with Hindu Trinity actually - much more Manichean. Conventionally Shiva and Vishnu are equally powerful, while Brahma takes a backseat except when a new creation is required. Shiva and Vishnu are also full-fledged Gods and neither is in the least, evil. The circular time concept yes, and reincarnation too, are taken from the three Indian religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism).

[Rcurran]

Who here actually thinks Satan is considered a God in Christianity? Baring in mind it's a religion with only one God.

 

The Arabic for Satan does nothing to further your pov.

 

I don't want a big debate about it but if you're trying to use real world theology to explain the dark one then bear in mind that Satan was an angel cast down from the heavens, not a God. That's the bottom line.

[Sharaman]

RJ went with the Manichean heresy rather than conventional X-ianity. There, we are talking two Gods, one of Light and one of Darkness.

[redmid17]

Who here actually thinks Satan is considered a God in Christianity? Baring in mind it's a religion with only one God.

 

The Arabic for Satan does nothing to further your pov.

 

I don't want a big debate about it but if you're trying to use real world theology to explain the dark one then bear in mind that Satan was an angel cast down from the heavens, not a God. That's the bottom line.

 

While Christianity in general does not consider the Devil a god (most references consider him a fallen angel), he is, for all intents and purposes, God's most powerful enemy and very much active in opposing him. In that context, I think it would be fair to consider him a god of sorts. The toughest thing here is to nail down whether you mean an Abrahamic god or something more along the lines of pagan/greek/roman gods. I don't really care either way as I happen to find it a mixture of the two concepts. The fact that even the Bible refers to Satan/Devil/Lucifer as "the prince of this world" and "the god of this world."

 

I find it far more interesting to compare Rand/LTT and his titles with the devil and his mythology.

 

Rand Al'Thor - He Who Comes With the Dawn, Dragon Reborn

LTT - Lord of Morning, Prince of the Dawn, Dragon

 

Lucifer is Latin for "light bearer," and the devil is identified as a dragon and "the old serpent" in the Book of Revelations. The book of Isaiah has an entire passage about the King of Babylon taunting people with him as the Morning Star. I find these kind of parallels a lot more interesting.

[Rcurran]

Essentially I suppose I agree with you all, the DO has powers so vast that we may as well consider him a god. Thing is I don't see him as balance to the creator as I see the creator as being much bigger and stronger than the dark one.

 

That's to say if the dark one were to win and unravel

The pattern and destroy everything he,d end up not really existing. The creator could start all over.

 

The fight here, in my opinion, is over the world and the wheel not a winner takes all or fight to the death between the creator and the dark one. The dark one wants to destroy what the creator created not the creator himself. He doesn't want to own the world like most of the wot world think but to end it, like moridin states.

 

Do you follow me? Not sure I'm being clear enough. Essentially if the do is a god is ultimately irrelevant his m.o is to destroy the world not the creator.

 

Without light there is no darkness, simply nothing.

[Guest J.R.]

rand will seal the D.O away with the true power

or just make a giant far-madding esque no-channeling terangreal

so oh!

and i liked the thought that the Collam Daan was the D.O's

prison.

nice

[Guest Osarolj]

Very intriguing post here that probably accentuates RJ's theme in the story: that events become twisted and mangled over time. That, to me, is why this story is so interesting

 

Who here actually thinks Satan is considered a God in Christianity? Baring in mind it's a religion with only one God.

 

The Arabic for Satan does nothing to further your pov

 

I don't want a big debate about it but if you're trying to use real world theology to explain the dark one then bear in mind that Satan was an angel cast down from the heavens, not a God. That's the bottom line.

 

While Christianity in general does not consider the Devil a god (most references consider him a fallen angel), he is, for all intents and purposes, God's most powerful enemy and very much active in opposing him. In that context, I think it would be fair to consider him a god of sorts. The toughest thing here is to nail down whether you mean an Abrahamic god or something more along the lines of pagan/greek/roman gods. I don't really care either way as I happen to find it a mixture of the two concepts. The fact that even the Bible refers to Satan/Devil/Lucifer as "the prince of this world" and "the god of this world."

 

I find it far more interesting to compare Rand/LTT and his titles with the devil and his mythology.

 

Rand Al'Thor - He Who Comes With the Dawn, Dragon Reborn

LTT - Lord of Morning, Prince of the Dawn, Dragon

 

Lucifer is Latin for "light bearer," and the devil is identified as a dragon and "the old serpent" in the Book of Revelations. The book of Isaiah has an entire passage about the King of Babylon taunting people with him as the Morning Star. I find these kind of parallels a lot more interesting.

[tneva82]

I guess to me I dont see the point of the series if its all the same as the previous turnings.

 

We have mighty fine story to read. That's point enough for quite a few people ;)

 

but I find it hard to believe that this age we are currently reading about will end like every other age.

 

So you think RJ is plain old lier?

 

Maybe time will be made effectivily linear

 

Funny. We have had the damn author of the series denying this yet this keeps popping up. Lol.

 

Why can't people just accept facts that we do know. Facts given to us by the author of the serie in a first place...