Perrin's PoV

[Deadsy]

I would care about Perrin losing his family if he actually ever had a thought about them, but he rarely does. He's more worried about minor problems. That's what I don't like about him. The things he whines about are stupid.

[Muad Cheade]

To be honest, for a fella that spends so much time thinking about every flipping thing he does, I for the life of me can't see why Perrin didn't send Grady and Neald off to round up a few more Ashaman/men once he realised they were gonna have to get stuck in at Malden. I mean, if your wife's kidnapped, wouldv you not ask your powerful friend for help, rather than spend three books on it?!

His task was supposed to be a secret. That was the reason for the mock fight. Everyone was supposed to think he had been banished so as not to look for him.

 

If he sent Asha'man to look for Rand (who would later go off the grid), the entire world would know where he was within days.

 

He was also supposed to bring the prohpet back to Rand alive, and sooner rather than later. Perrin blew off his mission from the moment Faile was kidnapped.

And the Prophet would not make it easier by Traveling. Also, the Prophet was too insane to control which is why he is dead. And finally, Perrin bloodied the Shaido completely, brought the nation of Ghealdan under Rand's banner and proved to the Westlands that an alliance with the Seanchan is possible....I think Rand wouldn't be too angry about that.

 

 

It isn't that Perrin lacks believability, it's that he's so pedestrian. He whines. He cries. He obsesses. About the same things. Over and over and over and... well, you get it.

 

The whole series has become a trite parody of itself. Almost any given scene you can predict what will be written - and scenes involving Perrin, most of all.

 

He NEEDS to get awesome, quick. Otherwise he's been a total waste of space and time.

Pedestrian? He's a wolfbrother who goes nearly insane when he's in battle. The majority of Mat in the first half of the series was him "whining" about being caught in Rand's ta'avern pull, yet no one complains about that. Rand did very much of the same also.

 

If it's so predictable, there's no need for you to read the rest of aMoL, right?

 

Somehow, I don't think everyone agrees with you.

 

 

I think nearly being forced to strangle the person you love and nearly kill them is orders of magnitude worse than having all of your family killed while you are in another country. But I agree Perrin has had it pretty bad compared to most of the rest of the charachters.

 

Perrin has not lost his mind. Rand is the one who has been hearing voices. Rand has been sooo much crazier than Perrin.

You can't really say which event would be more traumatizing to an individual.

 

 

I would care about Perrin losing his family if he actually ever had a thought about them, but he rarely does. He's more worried about minor problems. That's what I don't like about him. The things he whines about are stupid.

He was the only one of the ta'avern (and Emond Fielders) who went home after the Trollocs and Whitecloaks invaded.

[DemandredFO]

Muad Cheade, Perrin went home to be a coward and Faile stopped him. Rand doesn't go home because he doesn't was the Foresaken to level it for sport like Semiraghue did in Seanchan. Mat is tied to closely to Rand until LoC. Egwene and Nyneave are Aes Sedai, they couldn't make their own choice until LoC and then Egwene was too busy follow AS rules and Nyneave was minding Elayne then Rand. Everyone else, has some kind of reason for staying away, Perrin went home trying to be useless.

[perrin51]

Muad Cheade, Perrin went home to be a coward and Faile stopped him. Rand doesn't go home because he doesn't was the Foresaken to level it for sport like Semiraghue did in Seanchan. Mat is tied to closely to Rand until LoC. Egwene and Nyneave are Aes Sedai, they couldn't make their own choice until LoC and then Egwene was too busy follow AS rules and Nyneave was minding Elayne then Rand. Everyone else, has some kind of reason for staying away, Perrin went home trying to be useless.

 

So if i understand you correctly, Perrin going back to the Two Rivers to surrender to the White Cloaks was a cowardly move. Turning himself over to them for killing two men and saving his family and friends from persecution is cowardice? So by the same logic all Aiel are cowards. Anyone who tries to take responsibility for their actions are cowards. That is a truly interesting idea. It couldn't perhaps have been noble and honorable to do this? Hmmm.

 

At this point in the story he had very little to hold him and the good strong morals that he was raised with took over. He did what he felt he needed to do. What his honor demanded that he do. He was naive in his trust of the White Cloak honor and justice. He was thick and stubborn on that point. However once events conspired to show him the correct path, he did the right thing.

[Cut Strand]

Muad Cheade, Perrin went home to be a coward and Faile stopped him. Rand doesn't go home because he doesn't was the Foresaken to level it for sport like Semiraghue did in Seanchan. Mat is tied to closely to Rand until LoC. Egwene and Nyneave are Aes Sedai, they couldn't make their own choice until LoC and then Egwene was too busy follow AS rules and Nyneave was minding Elayne then Rand. Everyone else, has some kind of reason for staying away, Perrin went home trying to be useless.

 

So if i understand you correctly, Perrin going back to the Two Rivers to surrender to the White Cloaks was a cowardly move. Turning himself over to them for killing two men and saving his family and friends from persecution is cowardice? So by the same logic all Aiel are cowards. Anyone who tries to take responsibility for their actions are cowards. That is a truly interesting idea. It couldn't perhaps have been noble and honorable to do this? Hmmm.

 

At this point in the story he had very little to hold him and the good strong morals that he was raised with took over. He did what he felt he needed to do. What his honor demanded that he do. He was naive in his trust of the White Cloak honor and justice. He was thick and stubborn on that point. However once events conspired to show him the correct path, he did the right thing.

Cowardly because the Children of the Light are basically a terrorist organization.

 

1. They take hostages (Mat's family).

2. They accuse anyone that doesn't agree with them of being a darkfriend. And they feel no compulsion to honor bargains with darkfriends.

3. Dain admitted in a PoV that he covered up the murder of Perrin's family by Fain.

4. Dain agreed to aid the defense of Edmond's Field, then his men just sat pretty on the green.

 

You can't trust anyone like that in negotiations. Even if Perrin's family were still alive, if he had surrendered to them, he would've been executed and the Whitecloaks wouldn't have left. And Perrin should have known that going in.

 

There was nothing Perrin could do to spare the Two Rivers. Dain was looking for Perrin AND Rand. Mat was a target because Fain said so. And Dain should have known that Rand was in Tear, but they didn't come to the Two Rivers for the trio, they came because Fain wanted to hurt people and draw the trio to them.

 

The Children of the Light (as a whole) are a horrible group.

[TheAngryDruid]

The Children of the Light (as a whole) are a horrible group.

 

No, not all of them. Niall was just misguided and prejudiced, and touched by Fain.

 

Bornhald the elder wasn't a horrible man, we've seen that through his and Dain's POV's.

 

Galad may be turning them in the right direction. And Children like Trom don't seem so bad.

[DemandredFO]

Perrin51, if Perrin had carried out his original plan(for a moment assume no Slayer). Fain and the WCs would've killed everyone anyway. Besides, he would've died and probably doomed Rand to failure.

[Stevros]

The Children of the Light (as a whole) are a horrible group.

 

No, not all of them. Niall was just misguided and prejudiced, and touched by Fain.

 

Bornhald the elder wasn't a horrible man, we've seen that through his and Dain's POV's.

 

Galad may be turning them in the right direction. And Children like Trom don't seem so bad.

 

 

By stating "as a whole" it generally infers that there are exceptions.

[perrin51]

Perrin51, if Perrin had carried out his original plan(for a moment assume no Slayer). Fain and the WCs would've killed everyone anyway. Besides, he would've died and probably doomed Rand to failure.

Very true. This is the naivety that I mentioned. He was too important to the pattern to throw away is his life that way.

[Muad Cheade]

Perrin51, if Perrin had carried out his original plan(for a moment assume no Slayer). Fain and the WCs would've killed everyone anyway. Besides, he would've died and probably doomed Rand to failure.

Very true. This is the naivety that I mentioned. He was too important to the pattern to throw away is his life that way.

 

Yet doesn't Rand exhibit the same naivety multiple times. For example, during the Battle of Cairhien, he channels too much of the power and attempts to find Couladin in order to duel him. He also puts himself in risky positions and leaves often without thinking of the consequences. That has mostly changed since the Seanchan showed him that the Dragon Reborn is still mortal and not invincible.

 

We must remember that the main characters are all maturing (they're mostly from 18 to 27). You can see this in the way they acted then and the way they act now.

[bulf]

 

 

Yet doesn't Rand exhibit the same naivety multiple times. For example, during the Battle of Cairhien, he channels too much of the power and attempts to find Couladin in order to duel him. He also puts himself in risky positions and leaves often without thinking of the consequences. That has mostly changed since the Seanchan showed him that the Dragon Reborn is still mortal and not invincible.

 

We must remember that the main characters are all maturing (they're mostly from 18 to 27). You can see this in the way they acted then and the way they act now.

 

Well Rand has the excuse of being mad :P

[Orderofolde]

The figurines to me represented the opposite of what Faile told perrin. Her father said a general must care for the living, but perrin still cares for the dead too much.

 

The only figurine that was dead was Aram, the others are still alive and with him. I think that part of the dream sequence has to do with his "Questions of Leadership" and that the Two River folks are only half molded. Maybe he needs to forge them into an army instead of a bunch of farmers with bows.

 

Exactly, nicely put. He is also struggling with people he knew all his life now looking to him as a Lord and for leadership, people that took a switch to his backside now bowing and deferring to him. If he was raised with a silver spoon in his mouth from the beginning, it wouldn't be a struggle at all, and even a Perrin raised that way would have some arrogant tendancies.

 

Let us also not forget, his family was killed by Whitecloaks, who came to the Two Rivers because of him. Talk about your burden to bear. He is also beginning to mull over on a deeper level Aram's death and the battle in its entirety. His actions resulted in tens and tens of thousands dead, from Masema's followers to the Aiel to dead among his own ranks which were fairly light. He grew up in a society where killing was wrong, and now so many lay dead at his feet for (one always associates their own needs) rescuing Faile. It will now be her job to call him a lummox and thump him a time or two to reinterate the hundred thousand people he helped to free, and the further towns these Aiel would have eventuially visited, plundered, and more people killed. In the end he will not be 100% sated, but he will see the reason in that his actions far outweighed any personal gain. And all the while, there's the wolf dream/wolves to deal with.

 

You just have to put your feet into his boots. In TEoTW, he was a simple smith's apprentice who one day aspired to be as good as Master Luhan. Then he was thrown out into the world, first the Two Rivers, then all the bits leading to Caemlyn, and beyond. Add to it all his adventures and returning home and facing Trollocks and Whitecloaks, getting married to a woman who wants to be yelled at and roughted around a little bit, he wasn't prepared for it or for being a lord and leading men. He just does it because someone needs to. Now he's shifting to accept that there's little he can do but embrace who he has become.

[TheAngryDruid]

The Children of the Light (as a whole) are a horrible group.

 

No, not all of them. Niall was just misguided and prejudiced, and touched by Fain.

 

Bornhald the elder wasn't a horrible man, we've seen that through his and Dain's POV's.

 

Galad may be turning them in the right direction. And Children like Trom don't seem so bad.

 

 

By stating "as a whole" it generally infers that there are exceptions.

 

Yeah, I get that. But generally, when you give enough exceptions, it is kind of inferred that the premise may not be valid. Since you didn't seem to get that the first time, I'll get challenge it outright.

 

I mean, how many WC's do we really know well (who aren't Darkfriends)?

 

Niall, G. Bornhald, D. Bornhald, Valda, Asunawa, Byar, & Galad?

 

Of those, Niall, both Bornhalds, and Galad we know aren't so bad.

 

Byar is a zealot. Valda was an @ss, but could have been touched by Fain, and then we have Asunawa, who could likewise have been tainted, or be a DF.

 

It's a military organization, they follow orders. Unfortunately, a lot of their leaders (particularly Valda and Asunawa) have been leading them astray. The worst thing Dain did was in trying to avenge his father (Gawyn behaved similarly, and for less cause).

 

I mean, Perrin did kill two Whitecloaks for no reason. And a bunch more when he freed Gaul. There is some cause there.

[Jong]

 

Cowardly because the Children of the Light are basically a terrorist organization.

 

1. They take hostages (Mat's family).

2. They accuse anyone that doesn't agree with them of being a darkfriend. And they feel no compulsion to honor bargains with darkfriends.

3. Dain admitted in a PoV that he covered up the murder of Perrin's family by Fain.

4. Dain agreed to aid the defense of Edmond's Field, then his men just sat pretty on the green.

 

You can't trust anyone like that in negotiations. Even if Perrin's family were still alive, if he had surrendered to them, he would've been executed and the Whitecloaks wouldn't have left. And Perrin should have known that going in.

 

There was nothing Perrin could do to spare the Two Rivers. Dain was looking for Perrin AND Rand. Mat was a target because Fain said so. And Dain should have known that Rand was in Tear, but they didn't come to the Two Rivers for the trio, they came because Fain wanted to hurt people and draw the trio to them.

 

The Children of the Light (as a whole) are a horrible group.

 

The ___________ (as a whole) are a horrible group.

 

This same statement could be made about almost any group of people presented in the WOT. Taveren do plenty of terrible things, so do Ashaman, and aes sedai, so do the aiel. So do the Seanchan, So do Andoran nobles. etc...

 

For almost the entire WOT we are seeing the children from the perspective of Andoran's and Aes Sedai -- people who are the geo-political adversaries of the Children.

 

Galad is the one explicitly virtuous character in the entire WOT. The fact that he overcomes his inatte Andoran hostility towards the children and joins them and has risen through the ranks, seen the corruption of men like Valda and Asunawa and still believes in the children -- says something to me about the virtue of the children as a whole.

[Wheel of Thyme]

Hi all...

Jong, Galad's sticking with the Whitecloaks despite all theyve done thats negative doesnt indicate the Children of the Light have real merit. It indicates Galad is naive and possibly deluded, in my opinion.

 

Its rather like someone who joined the Nazi party because they liked its ideals, but was willing to ignore and deny the rancid truth of the evils the Nazis were, and the vile acts that they did.

 

Sincerely,

Wheel of Thyme

[DPT24]

Um... there's really not a whole lot of good about the whitecloaks. Ever read RJ's comments about them? It looks like they'll find some redemption, but, ... if they didn't attack and torture and lynch everyone who got in their way, Perrin wouldn't have needed to kill them.

[Jong]

Hi all...

Jong, Galad's sticking with the Whitecloaks despite all theyve done thats negative doesnt indicate the Children of the Light have real merit. It indicates Galad is naive and possibly deluded, in my opinion.

 

Its rather like someone who joined the Nazi party because they liked its ideals, but was willing to ignore and deny the rancid truth of the evils the Nazis were, and the vile acts that they did.

 

Sincerely,

Wheel of Thyme

 

You just compared Galad to a Nazi stooge? Wow, I am going to invoke Godwin's law on that one.

[Jong]

Um... there's really not a whole lot of good about the whitecloaks. Ever read RJ's comments about them? It looks like they'll find some redemption, but, ... if they didn't attack and torture and lynch everyone who got in their way, Perrin wouldn't have needed to kill them.

 

RJ is given a lot of credit for developing a big world with realistic cultures, and this sort of authentic feel -- real histories etc... And then you read his comments about the white cloaks and its like yea maybe not that one.

[Random Man]

Hi all...

Jong, Galad's sticking with the Whitecloaks despite all theyve done thats negative doesnt indicate the Children of the Light have real merit. It indicates Galad is naive and possibly deluded, in my opinion.

 

Its rather like someone who joined the Nazi party because they liked its ideals, but was willing to ignore and deny the rancid truth of the evils the Nazis were, and the vile acts that they did.

 

Sincerely,

Wheel of Thyme

 

You just compared Galad to a Nazi stooge? Wow, I am going to invoke Godwin's law on that one.

IIRC, RJ himself said he wrote the Children as an organization to be something of a cross between the Spanish Inquisition and the Nazis, so I'd say the comparison is a valid argument and not a devolution of this thread a la Godwin's law. Galad first became introduced to the lofty ideals of the Children by reading the founder's book -- who had himself envisioned the Children as more of a priesthood than a global military organization that goes around putting the screws to anyone they feel like.

[Sharaman]

It's also a very misogynistic organisation with sort of assumes that only men can be super-pure vessels of the light. No particular reason why it should be all-male after all as it clearly is, - the vast majority of women are not channelers, after all. Lothair Mantelair must have been a Masema-type nutjob (without necessarily being manipulated by DFs).

[Cyf]

Not necessarily misogynist.

 

Remember, the Children were a response to the power of the White Tower, which regardless of the gaidin is pretty much female ran. Especially as, if you read between the lines, was pretty darn bad about that time. Remember, according to Moiraine and Siuan at one point it was totally acceptable to forcibly bond men against their will and so on. As such, it makes sense as a response to that, it would be male-oriented. I don't think this is necessarily misogynist -- at least anymore than the White Tower started misandrist. Both have elements of this, and are probably strongly so now (some of the things the Tower seems to believe about men with their policies is stomach-churning in my opinion), but I doubt it started out that way, anymore than the White Tower did.

 

Simply calling him a misogynist/Maseme nutjob is really simplifying things.

[Sharaman]

Mantelair came way after the AS had ceased their excesses. He was a creature of the War of the Hundred Years - post-Hawkwing. What little we know of the Way of the Light makes it fairly clear that he was both misogynistic and a nutjob.

[Cyf]

I think you're reading way too much into the current Whitecloak thinking as what it was then. Could he have been a nutjob? Sure? But we don't -know-. We've only seen bits and pieces of what he wrote, and as is always the case, things change over time. Look at how the RL bible is now and how many translations there are and how different they can be. :)

 

I think calling the guy a nutjob is letting personal bias creep in, myself.

[Sharaman]

I think you're reading way too much into the current Whitecloak thinking as what it was then. Could he have been a nutjob? Sure? But we don't -know-. We've only seen bits and pieces of what he wrote, and as is always the case, things change over time. Look at how the RL bible is now and how many translations there are and how different they can be. :)

 

I think calling the guy a nutjob is letting personal bias creep in, myself.

Unlike the Bible, The Way of the Light has not been translated and it is the work of one writer. So what we see is an original document. It's available to non-WC, as well. There is ample evidence in the few quotes we have that it was a very confused book written by a very confused guy.

[Guest E.B.Turner]

I don't know if it has been so noted elsewhere, but to me it seems Hopper has suddenly become quite linguistically sophisticated in the area of human speech. I must say I was very disappointed by the intellectual laziness of that and I don't think it is in keeping with Jordan's vision. It all seemed too much like a typical human conversation.

 

The dynamic interaction between Perrin and Hopper, and the wolves in general, was a fundamental aspect of the character and that sub-plot. Conveying thoughts and emotions the way the wolves [are supposed to] do, and as they generally have up-until-now, was a necessary device in my opinion. That form of communication was a vital aspect of Perrin's internal conflict between Wolf and Man. Now, it seems more as if it is Hopper who has fell prey to being 'humanized'.

 

Rather than we as readers being transported into the Mind of the wolves along with Perrin, here we have Hopper too-conveniently thrust into our world and our sensibilities, and THAT character suffers a grave indignity as a result. They both suffer for it, actually. Because of this, at least in what I read in the Prologue, Hopper is reduced to little more than a simplistic prop, a magical talking door-knob of just-in-time information, literary spackling written in to fill gaps in the author's ingenuity and patronize us with dry dialog.

 

Glimpses of Hopper and the wolves should draw us in and challenge us, should seduce us on a most basic and primordial level into THEIR world, as they do Perrin. By way of that, the inner conflict of Perrin's character should resonate within us, make us empathize with him, and the wolves, the same way the other characters and indeed the whole Wheel of Time has captured our hearts and our imaginations.

 

Mr. Jordan was capable of doing exactly that.

 

If it is not already too late, I would suggest that Mr. Sanderson go over to radiolab.org and find the time to listen to a couple of segments on "Words", and "Voices in Your Head", which made me ponder (among many other things) the relationship between Perrin and the wolves, and how they interact. I will also wholeheartedly throw in a suggestion to listen to the shows on "Animal Minds" and the like, as that also fits in nicely with the subject-at-hand.