The Bodyswap Theory

[damandred]

Both bodies are dying in the tent, then suddenly one starts healing. You can make a case for delayed reation to a change of souls if you like. Up to now both cases are valid as the whole bodyswap thing is unexplained. But for me the most simple explanation is Rand' soul moved into moridins body = Moridins body healed.

 

@ jack of shadows

" yes thats good, that is what you need to do"

 

Carry Moridin out of the pit?

[Sabio]

The problem I would have with it happening in the tent is, neither was in any shape to do anything, there was no channeling since the Asha'man in the tent would of sensed it, so using nothing but the link he would of had to somehow force out Moridin's soul while putting his in Moridin's.  That why it makes sense that it started when they were linked in the cave. 

[Estetio]

I though the same as Sabio, we don't know where the body swap started to happen but, in my opinion, is more likely it starting in the cave while Rand and Moridin still got power and then probably the end of body-swaping in the tent not taking place until Rand's soul get accustomed to Moridin's body. After that, one (Rand) start to heal. 

[jack of shadows]

@mb, @demandred,

"rand carrying the body",

"rand coming out of the cave"

when rand saw the old woman,he was already outside the pit of doom with moridin,

so why state the obvious?

we(the readers),already know that rand did manage to drag moridin out with him,so

what's the purpose in retelling it?

i'll have to agree with sabio,the body swap probably did start inside the pit when rand

and moridin were still linked,when moiraine looked towards the cave for the last time,

she saw rand and moridin standing in the light,talking maybe? agreeing maybe?

[damandred]

The problem I would have with it happening in the tent is, neither was in any shape to do anything, there was no channeling since the Asha'man in the tent would of sensed it, so using nothing but the link he would of had to somehow force out Moridin's soul while putting his in Moridin's. That why it makes sense that it started when they were linked in the cave.

I can see your point, but i think moridin' soul had already left his body inside the pit. I dont know why it is such a big leap to think that, 1, Rand carryed Moridin' empty shell out of the pit, 2, once in the tent left his old battered body and entered Moridins( via link).Rather than 1, swapped bodies in the pit, 2, carried out his own body in Moridins without noticeing, 3, was dying in the tent while his body " got use" to the new soul then healed.

 

Why does flinn think Rand carried out Moridin? Maybe because the way the bodies were found? I know people will say because a forsaken wouldnt save the dragon, but is that any more far fetched than the dragan saving a forsaken?

However it happened, it is clear Rand didnt do it delibrate, so for others to say that body swapping was the reason for the aiel comments make no sense. All Rand knew at the time of the comments is he had just escaped the cave he wasnt " doing" anything else, and if the swap had already happened he had already done it.

[damandred]

I though the same as Sabio, we don't know where the body swap started to happen but, in my opinion, is more likely it starting in the cave while Rand and Moridin still got power and then probably the end of body-swaping in the tent not taking place until Rand's soul get accustomed to Moridin's body. After that, one (Rand) start to heal.

End of body swapping? I dont get it. So Rand swapped bodies, had the strengh to carry his own out, then started dying while his new body got use to its new soul? I dont see why this theory is any more valid than my own.

[damandred]

@mb, @demandred,

"rand carrying the body",

"rand coming out of the cave"

when rand saw the old woman,he was already outside the pit of doom with moridin,

so why state the obvious?

we(the readers),already know that rand did manage to drag moridin out with him,so

what's the purpose in retelling it?

i'll have to agree with sabio,the body swap probably did start inside the pit when rand

and moridin were still linked,when moiraine looked towards the cave for the last time,

she saw rand and moridin standing in the light,talking maybe? agreeing maybe?

The old womans comments imo are for rand saving moridins body. What else could it be? If the swap happened inside the pit, then she couldnt of been speaking about that as it had already of happened. All rand was doing at the time escaping he wasnt consciously doing anything else.

[jack of shadows]

@damandred,

did you ask yourself why the old woman was there in the first place?

she seemed to be doing absolutely nothing,all she said was "yes,that's

good,that is what you need to do" and retreated,so why did robert jordan

place her there?why do we care what a nameless aiel is saying about

rand and his activities concerning moridin?

i really want to believe that there was more to this aiel woman than:

"cool,you dragged moridin out?wonderful-byeeeeee".....

because if that is her only contribution robert jordan could have easily replaced her with nynaeve.

[Sabio]

It had to of been deliberate because rand would of had no reason to carry a body out of the cave.  Him having Alvina (however you spell her name)  having gold and clothes ready for him show he had at least thought it out.  The other thing is from the time he passed out outside the cave to the time he awoke in the tent there is nothing to make us think he was conscious between those two points.  Since for most of it he was being monitored and no one said anything about him waking up.  So if it started in the tent he would of had to of done it while being unconscious.  Which is why I believe it started while they were in the cave, Rand's pov outside of the cave doesn't lead me to think he was in any shape to do much.

[damandred]

@damandred,

did you ask yourself why the old woman was there in the first place?

she seemed to be doing absolutely nothing,all she said was "yes,that's

good,that is what you need to do" and retreated,so why robert jordan

placed her there?why do we care what a nameless aiel is saying about

rand and his activities concerning moridin?

i really want to believe that there was more to this aiel woman than:

"cool,you dragged moridin out?wonderful-byeeeeee".....

because if that is her only contribution robert jordan could have easily replaced her with nynaeve.

 

No doubt if RJ would of lived the whole Jenn thing would of been made clearer. Going of Aviendha' meeting in the waste, it seems to me RJ had some role for the Jenn wise ones in affecting the world post TG. I think BS and the team have kept the RJ completed scenes,and if RJ would of finished the series those scenes would of been explained in earlier books. I think there wasnt enough in the notes for BS to do that. So Imo scenes like that of the old woman by the pit and the other with Avi in the waste probably should if been edited out.

[damandred]

It had to of been deliberate because rand would of had no reason to carry a body out of the cave. Him having Alvina (however you spell her name) having gold and clothes ready for him show he had at least thought it out. The other thing is from the time he passed out outside the cave to the time he awoke in the tent there is nothing to make us think he was conscious between those two points. Since for most of it he was being monitored and no one said anything about him waking up. So if it started in the tent he would of had to of done it while being unconscious. Which is why I believe it started while they were in the cave, Rand's pov outside of the cave doesn't lead me to think he was in any shape to do much.

I think the gold was left just in case. All through the last couple of books Min and Elayne are nagging Rand about not expecting to live even cads has a go at him about that, so it may have been left as a gesture to them.

As for the swap i dont think Rand conscously planned to swap bodies with Moridin. I think he was as suprised as anyone to wake up in moridins bod. Suprised but not shocked, he knew after all of the link between them.

[jradnut]

I've yet to become familiar enough with mechanics of this forum in order to reply with quotes, but when I am, watch out!

 

Somebody mentioned that crossing bale fire streams might have led to a body swap, and this has been bothering me greatly.

 

First off, anybody who has ever watched Ghostbusters knows that crossing streams is NEVER a good idea; could lead to the end of the universe.

 

 

There is no secondly because just needed to get this off my chest, ;p

[mb]

the cartoon or the movie?

 

either way, this series is different.

[Guest rynka]

I think he was in both bodies since he defeated the dark one.

 

"Rand tripped.  The body in his arms was so heavy.  He slipped to the ground.  He could......see just faintly, A figure kneeling down beside him.   "Yes", a woman whispered.  He did not recognize the voice.  "Yes, that's good.  That is what you need to do".   He blinked his vision fuzzy.  Was that aiel clothing?  An old woman, with grey hair? Her form retreated, and Rand reached toward her, not wanting to be alone. Wanting to explain himself. " I see the answer now" he wispered. "I asked the Aelfinn the wrong question. To choose is our fate. If you have no choice, then you aren't a man at all. You're a puppet" shouting. Rand felt heavy. He plinged into unconsciousness."

 

This thing, to me looks like the crucial part of the switch, half of him lost consciousness at the beginning, and the other one at the end.

It just feels like there's a lack if interaction with the body at the beginning, after the second sentence. If the one carrying would have slipped then there should have been something said about the body falling or him on top etc. Instead there's just -- the body is heavy -- he slipped. As in, he, the body, slipped. That's where I think the one half -carrying- fainted, and the other one, the one who could see a bit was viewing things instead.

The aiel woman knelt beside him, as he was already on the ground, not kneeling by a dropped body.

When she's talking to him, I think she refers to his soul transfering already, not the carrying of the body or something he might do in the tent in the future. His soul is split in two, that is also why both of the bodies were dying in the tent until he made the choice -which he talked about with the woman- and switched fully to one of them, the healthier, deciding to live. That's why he was also surprised when he woke up, not in Rand's body, but Moridin's. He chose life, and so the healthy of the two. If he'd stayed undecided, he would have died in both bodies.

[dawnflower8]

WAIT A SECOND.

 

People were predicting the bodyswap 3 years BEFORE AMoL actually came out? Wow, that's impressive.

[Suttree]

Since Terez doesn't make it by that often these days I thought I would share a recent post of hers from over at TL. Makes one somewhat nostalgic for the old days when this type of analysis was a bit more common.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=220174&postcount=10

 

This is something I posted about back when the book came out. One of the reasons I never liked the bodyswap theory (aside from the ick factor, which I always acknowledged was irrational in itself) was the fact that the foreshadowing did not seem to predict a swap but rather a merge. I always assumed that the reason Rand had to die was to sever the link, but I figured it was impossible for Rand to die without Moridin dying, which really threw a wrench into the spokes of the theories I was trying to craft on the subject (which is part of why my theory site never went live). The pieces just didn't fit.

 

Now that it's done, it makes a lot more sense, because I don't think that Moridin necessarily died at the end. The "necessarily" is important because I think RJ always meant to leave it hanging in a very Schrödinger kind of way (to use his own terminology for the art of writing fantasy). But it still should have been impossible for one to die without the other dying if the link was to serve any other purpose beyond a simple plot device. What I mean by that is, for Moridin to die, his thread would have had to have been cut (severing the link by way of the afterlife), but his thread had merged with Rand's, so the severing of that link would deserve, in pure storytelling terms, some sort of in-book explanation as to what happened. Anything less is deus ex machina which in turn cheapens the arc of the merge. Not everything in a story has to be explained, but the get-out-of-death-free card is one of those things.

 

I think there is a certain poetry to the idea that Moridin did not get the oblivion that he was so much looking forward to, because his thread is still tied to Rand's. RJ even planted a hint of what that might be like for Moridin by describing what happens when your cour'souvra gets crushed. It fits much better the foreshadowing, in TEOTW 24 when Rand dreamed that he merged with Ishamael, and Min's viewing. She said one dies, and the other does not, but it was Rand's body that died, which would seem to work on the same level as all the other prophecies that said Rand, specifically, would die.

 

And in fact, if Rand is technically dead, and his soul has technically gone to the afterlife in Tel'aran'rhiod, it provides an eloquent explanation for why the waking world is like the World of Dreams for Rand now. His soul is in Tel'aran'rhiod, but since his thread merged with Moridin's, his body is in the waking world.

 

That brings to mind Dom's theory that Calian and Shivan are not Elayne's twins, but Tigraine and Luc, and that Slayer was created by merging Luc with Isam, and then killing Luc's body, sending his soul to the afterlife. "One did live, and one did die, but both are"—from the Dark Prophecy in TGH, about Slayer. But we know that RJ had the last scene in mind before he started writing, and of course, he foreshadowed Rand's eventual fate in TEOTW 24.

 

Of course, Slayer could change back and forth between Luc and Isam, and considering Rand's pipe, he can probably do the same in a physical sense (which relieves the aforementioned ick factor), but Rand is different because he is Rand even in Moridin's body. But since TPOD at the latest, he has been Moridin too, in a very real sense.

 

The overarching theme of WoT is balance, and while the symbol for the One Power represents saidar and saidin, it also represents Light and Shadow. In a sense, it's a conflation caused by the taint and the Breaking, but in a sense it also represents the cycle of the Wheel, and the need for the Dark One to be broken free once every Turn.

 

In Rand specifically, it has implications beyond that. He was a good-natured boy when the story began, and no matter how it progressed he remained that kind of person, but the taint started him down a dark path that was only worsened when he began to merge with Moridin, however that came about. In order to defeat his enemy, he had to become his enemy, and defeat the darkness that was inside himself. He accomplished that on Dragonmount, and though he was still clearly merged with Moridin after Dragonmount, he was completely in control of himself. He had simply overpowered the part of himself that was Moridin, and more broadly, the part of himself that was under the influence of evil (from the taint, from Moridin, and from the imperfect qualities of his own character).

 

On top of those thematic implications, it provides an way for him to go incognito without channeling, and perhaps more importantly, as was hinted in Aviendha's visions of the future, perhaps it's Moridin's personality that gives Rand the necessary selfishness to stay out of the conflicts happening in the world after the Last Battle, which is something that bothered a lot of readers. But perhaps it took a vestige of Moridin to allow Rand to actually enjoy the fruits of a job well done.

That Calian and Shiva bit is certainly food for thought. The possibility had never crossed my mind.

[nicholas.westmiles@gmail.com]

I had always had the thought in my head that, since Rand has both himself and Lews Therin in his head, that one of those would have to die, and the other would live, as a fulfillment of the prophecies.  It's certainly fascinating to think of the all the possibilities that arise from the cyclic nature of the Wheel.