Who Is The Third Man? Rand and Moridin's Link

[Leyrann]

Maybe they physically melt together...

[FarShainMael]

Um. As to the nature of the link I have a theory that seems to explain many things, and differs from your version somewhat:)

I think that during crossed stream episodes, the threads of Rand and Moridin has melded together somewhat, resulting in several effects.

First, the link makes them close -nearly one, but not quite. So that when it activates, Rand sees Moridin just from the side. Also, it makes them nearly indistinguishable from the "global" point of view -such as the Source or the Dark One. Then, when Rand is accessing saidin, but does not have control yet (or when he releases it), from the point of view of Saidin it is like TWO male access points are calling it - which result in (impossible) male-male link, ambiguity and severe dizziness/disorientation for recipients, until one of them resolves it by taking control of the flow.

 

Also, the way Rand accesses TP is through that link (he did see Moridin's face upon activation, in TGS), and the DO may not be even able to tell that it is not Moridin drawing on his power. Whether Moridin can use TP at the same time as Rand is debatable. Also, Rand does not feel any sickness upon drawing TP, since there is no ambiguity -all power comes from a single access point - Moridin, just being drawn through the link like the usual power circle, only more permanent. Just IMHO.

(Also, it would mean that Rand can still access TP. Any one think that DO will end up like The Great Serpent, with his behind in his mouth?)

 

Fascinating thought. A man-man circle is not possible with saidin - but it may well be possible with the unisex TP!

[Smiddywesson]

Is it possible that through the link rand amd moridin share that if they die together dark one bring rand back?

 

Nice. Maybe so

[Bougher]

i find this link to be the most fascinating thing going in the series and I think it will play THE crucial role in the outcome. I read a theory once that said balefiring balefire creates a paradox. They both cause the other to cease to exist, but if one ceases to exist, the other exists, and so on is the paradox. The only way for the pattern to solve this paradox is to make the two balefire streams (and thus their source) become one. I am not sure I buy into this theory fully, but it is interesting. I always wondered how (pre KOD) people thought this was the taint. I thought it was very clear right away that the dizziness was from this.

 

 

at the time i didnt relise what it was butit never made sences to me for it to be the taint

[Bougher]

i realt like the idea of the boar being sealled with the TP because it acualy makes senes cause we already know saidin cant seal up up the boar by its self so that leaves two optiones both halves of the OP or the TP i think TP because it could not be weakend by its self wear as the seals were inconplet yes but still weaked over time by the DO so in a way the TP

[Suttree]

i realt like the idea of the boar being sealled with the TP because it acualy makes senes cause we already know saidin cant seal up up the boar by its self so that leaves two optiones both halves of the OP or the TP i think TP because it could not be weakend by its self wear as the seals were inconplet yes but still weaked over time by the DO so in a way the TP

 

Adding Saidar would not have worked any better last time. Per RJ the only difference would have been for Saidar to be tainted as well.

[Eht Slat Meit]

My thoughts: When I first heard the "body swap" theory, it sounded ludicrous. Over the years it has grown on me. Now I expect to see Rand and Moridin grappling in a final fight in some non-physical sense, with Moridin pulling a "Gollum" ending that turns the battle to seal the DO. At the same time, Rand is killed (bodily); Rand comes back in Moridin's body while the three women weep over Rand's corpse. Later Min sees Rand/Moridin and a viewing lets her recognize him. "Woolhead," she says, "Let's go home." Or words to that effect...

 

So, the three are Rand, LTT, and Moridin; Rand lives in Moridin's body, and I tend to guess no more LTT (promise kept).

 

Even wilder theory: what if Moridin -is- the Dragon Reborn, one that was turned to the Shadow, and as a result, lost not only his soul but his memories as well, all in exchange for immortality? Strangely, there is no mention of a Champion of the Dark in sha'rah...

 

Two interesting quotes from TPoD:

 

The Fisher was always worked as a man, a bandage blinding his eyes and one hand pressed to his side, a few drops of blood dripping through his fingers. The reasons, like the source of the name, were lost in the mist of time. That troubled him sometimes, enraged him, what knowledge might be lost in the turnings of the Wheel, knowledge he needed, knowledge he had a right to. A right!

On the board, the Fisher stood waiting, but in the greater game, al’Thor moved already to his wishes. And soon, now... It was very hard to lose a game when you played both sides of the board. Moridin laughed so hard that tears rolled down his face, but he was not aware of them.

[2RiversFan]

Eht Slat Meit said:

Even wilder theory: what if Moridin -is- the Dragon Reborn, one that was turned to the Shadow, and as a result, lost not only his soul but his memories as well, all in exchange for immortality? Strangely, there is no mention of a Champion of the Dark in sha'rah...

 

That theory of Moridin being the Dragon reborn is fascinating, but it would have to be that Rand has two souls (or perhaps 1/2 of a single soul) for it to be true. IIRC Rand remembered many, many past lives while he was on Dragonmount.

 

I have a sneaking suspicion of something else: Both Rand and Moridin/Ishamael are the Fisher. Afterall, the Fisher is described as being half black and half white. I've also always felt that Moridin is more ripe for returning to the Light than the other Forsaken that are in it for selfish reasons. What if 'The Betrayer of Hope' can be made to see Hope again? It is much easier to do that than to make someone turn away from greed by my way of thinking.

Edited February 15, 2012 by 2RiversFan

[Eht Slat Meit]

 

That theory of Moridin being the Dragon reborn is fascinating, but it would have to be that Rand has two souls (or perhaps 1/2 of a single soul) for it to be true. IIRC Rand remembered many, many past lives while he was on Dragonmount.

 

Eh, I was referring to the loss of the soul. Per that theory, Moridin has none, only whatever life thread he possessed when the DO severed him from the Pattern and granted him a special brand of immortality. It would explain his strange sense of entitlement to Fisher-specific knowledge. After all, per the theory, _he_ too is the Dragon, just like Rand, just like LTT.

 

I have a sneaking suspicion of something else: Both Rand and Moridin/Ishamael are the Fisher. Afterall, the Fisher is described as being half black and half white. I've also always felt that Moridin is more ripe for returning to the Light than the other Forsaken that are in it for selfish reasons. What if 'The Betrayer of Hope' can be made to see Hope again? It is much easier to do that than to make someone turn away from greed by my way of thinking.

 

Yeah, that's more or less what I'm looking at here, though I'm not committed to the theory. Like I said, wilder, and borderline loony due to the largely circumstantial evidence for it.

[Elan Tedronai]

min already has forseen this. Rand and moridin merge which results in one of them dying. more probably moridin

[Eggplant]

So, the three are Rand, LTT, and Moridin; Rand lives in Moridin's body, and I tend to guess no more LTT (promise kept).

 

I'm pretty sure that Rand and LTT are one in the same. ToM seemed to make that clear I thought.

[damandred]

I like the idea of moridin getting turned to the light. I've always thought of him as champion of the dark, which is how he himself sees himself(going by his comments in EotW prologue)

Maybe turning the CotD is the only way the light can get a decisive victory over the DO(until next time), the same as many believe the reverse is true for a DO victory.

[Suttree]

I like the idea of moridin getting turned to the light. I've always thought of him as champion of the dark, which is how he himself sees himself(going by his comments in EotW prologue)

Maybe turning the CotD is the only way the light can get a decisive victory over the DO(until next time), the same as many believe the reverse is true for a DO victory.

 

Going to take a fair amount as Brandon in an interview said Moridin is "nastier" than Fain by a long shot.

[Dagon Thyne]

i find this link to be the most fascinating thing going in the series and I think it will play THE crucial role in the outcome. I read a theory once that said balefiring balefire creates a paradox. They both cause the other to cease to exist, but if one ceases to exist, the other exists, and so on is the paradox. The only way for the pattern to solve this paradox is to make the two balefire streams (and thus their source) become one. I am not sure I buy into this theory fully, but it is interesting. I always wondered how (pre KOD) people thought this was the taint. I thought it was very clear right away that the dizziness was from this.

 

I believe that the link is connected to the "to live you must die" part of the prophesy. Rand's soul is linked to Moridin's.....Therefore, if Rand kills moridin, he will kill part of himself.....Rand must kill a part of himself in order to defeat moridin and survive....

[damandred]

I like the idea of moridin getting turned to the light. I've always thought of him as champion of the dark, which is how he himself sees himself(going by his comments in EotW prologue)

Maybe turning the CotD is the only way the light can get a decisive victory over the DO(until next time), the same as many believe the reverse is true for a DO victory.

 

Going to take a fair amount as Brandon in an interview said Moridin is "nastier" than Fain by a long shot.

 

 

 

Oh right didn't know that, that's something we don't see in the books.

Admittedly he sounds very pleased with the thought of the universe ending forever, but, apart from that he seems almost pleasant.

[Elan Tedronai]

I like the idea of moridin getting turned to the light. I've always thought of him as champion of the dark, which is how he himself sees himself(going by his comments in EotW prologue)

Maybe turning the CotD is the only way the light can get a decisive victory over the DO(until next time), the same as many believe the reverse is true for a DO victory.

 

Going to take a fair amount as Brandon in an interview said Moridin is "nastier" than Fain by a long shot.

 

 

 

Oh right didn't know that, that's something we don't see in the books.

Admittedly he sounds very pleased with the thought of the universe ending forever, but, apart from that he seems almost pleasant.

 

 

I hate to break it to you but moridin's days are numbered. His link with rand will prove to be his undoing. Moridin is going to be toast

[morkhon]

As Luckers stated (and quoted!) in his initial post, the link formed in ACOS.

I know this is an old thread, but I just happen to be re-reading the series and in the very first book (EotW)...there's a fairly early on chapter in which Rand is dreaming and Ba'alzamon is there. And Rand looks at his image in the mirror and the two share a face and become one.

 

It seems like their link goes back way before ACoS. Is this something that was created when Ishamael healed LTT in the Dragonmount prologue?

Edited November 7, 2012 by morkhon

[TristanWebb]

Ishy was just messing with the boys. He didn't know which was LTT so he sent the same dreams to all the ta'veren he could find. They were just there to convince them to turn to the Shadow, though they don't work that well.

[Yosarian]

As Luckers stated (and quoted!) in his initial post, the link formed in ACOS.

 

Well, that was a theory Rand himself came up with, but I think there's actually evidence of it existing earlier. I think it might actually go all the way back to when Ishy healed Lewis Therrin's insanity in the age of legends.

[morkhon]

Ishy was just messing with the boys. He didn't know which was LTT so he sent the same dreams to all the ta'veren he could find. They were just there to convince them to turn to the Shadow, though they don't work that well.

Well, we only see Rand's dreams. When we start getting Perrin's POV, we don't actually see any dreams as they're happening. There's just a mention that he's plagued by nightmares, but that he never comes face to face with Ba'alzamon in them. Which obviously doesn't sync up with Rand's..who constantly meets him.

 

What I also notice reading this first book is that after Rand has this dream in which he and Ba'alzamon 'merge' into an image is that he starts thinking to himself differently. He starts questioning himself, almost taunting himself. For example in the next Rand POV after that you get something like...

 

'Why? Nagged a voice in the back of his head.? So it will turn out like one of Thom's stories? The heroes find the treasure and defeat the villain and live happily ever after? Some of his stories don't end that way. Sometimes even heroes die. Are you a hero, Rand al'Thor? Are you a hero, sheepherder?

 

That's just a strange thing to think to yourself. Prior to this such personal thoughts would be describes as something like, 'Rand thought to himself' or whatever. This is 'a voice in the back of his head'. Just a subtle difference. It's almost like Ishamael is in his head now. Or is this the beginning of LTT in his head? Did the dream trigger that?

 

It's hard to describe. But I've just been reading this book and after that dream suddenly Rand starts thinking very strange things, in a very strange way. It seemed like the link with Ish had something to do with it.

Edited November 7, 2012 by morkhon

[TNine]

]Well, we only see Rand's dreams. When we start getting Perrin's POV, we don't actually see any dreams as they're happening. There's just a mention that he's plagued by nightmares, but that he never comes face to face with Ba'alzamon in them. Which obviously doesn't sync up with Rand's..who constantly meets him.

We see Perrin meet ba'alzamon when the wolves fight him off, in TEOTW Chapter 27, Shelter from the Storm.

Edited November 7, 2012 by TNine

[Yosarian]

Yeah, but the "Rand and Ishy merge into one" thing always seemed like pretty strong evidence to me. Neither of the other two had that dream.

[morkhon]

]Well, we only see Rand's dreams. When we start getting Perrin's POV, we don't actually see any dreams as they're happening. There's just a mention that he's plagued by nightmares, but that he never comes face to face with Ba'alzamon in them. Which obviously doesn't sync up with Rand's..who constantly meets him.

We see Perrin meet ba'alzamon when the wolves fight him off, in TEOTW Chapter 27, Shelter from the Storm.

Yeah, the chapter I was referring to was before this.

 

But anyway, I still say there's something very important about Rand's merging dream. He definitely starts thinking to himself differently after that. There's a second personality to his thinking from that point on.

[TristanWebb]

Ishy didn't know who was who until Perrin got his wolves and Mat touched the statue with the dagger, was the merging dream before or after that?

[Ian Ohlander]

I just came across Rand's dream in EOTW too and it immediately jumped out as a foreshadowing of the later merging of Rand and Moridin.

 

And that thought gave me pause. Why would that be something to foreshadow so early and in the very first book? Later on, while riding with Almen Bunt, Rand has a dream where Thom says the Dragon is one with the land, setting up the very important Fisher King motif that is so crucial to this story.

 

Clearly RJ has planned out the end, having stated so himself many times, and put a lot of foreshadowing in his earlier books. Even BS mentioned another that he found in TGH, for example.

 

So again, why was it so important to plant this little seed regarding the merger? The other (known) foreshadowings, like the Fisher King motif, are hugely important to the situation (and no doubt, solution) at the very end.

 

So what does the merger mean? What does it provide that is going to be crucial at the end? In my mind, there are 2 possibilities.

1) Moridin returns to the light, partly in response to Rand's change in VoG and provides or contributes to the solution in some way.

 

To be honest, I don't buy this. Moridin is Ishamael. Now granted, he seems a cold fish emotion wise, at least in these last books (post resurrection). But if you go back and look at his (admittedly mad) behaviors in the early books, he seems much more emotional. He seems to delight in psychologically tormenting the boys, as well as DF's that fail him (ie: in TDR when Matt escapes TV), just as the other FS who are much more emotional also do.

 

And then there is this scene, in one of Rand's dreams.

 

Strange oval stones made the fireplace; they just looked like stones, wet-slick despite the fire, when he

looked straight at them, but when he glimpsed them from the corner of his eye they seemed to be faces instead, the faces of men and women

writhing in anguish, screaming silently.

This is not the first (nor the last time) that we see Ishy/Moridin (pre and post resurrection) surounding himself with imagery (possibly even being real trapped souls) of people in torment. And the other circumstances indicate it is not just as an element to frighten the boys.

 

And then there's this quote, mentioned by an earlier poster:

 

QUESTION

 

 

And now, just for fun:

Who's nastier: Moridin, or Padan Fain?

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Still Moridin, by a long shot.

Clearly Moridin is still a very bad person, even though he is a nihilist. His use of cruelty doesn't just seem to be a means to an end, but something that he enjoys, at least on some level. His treatment of Lanfear every night in TAR is another good example.Human suffering doesn't seem to be just a tool but is aesthetically pleasing to him.

What does that say about the psychology of this man and his likelihood of returning to the light?

 

2) The link provides access to something that Rand will need.

 

Obviously, the likely "something" is the True Power. I'm iffy on this theory. Not sure how the DO wouldn't just stop the flow of TP through Moridin (if that's how it's being accessed) if it is being used in a way he doesn't like. Unless maybe the flaw in Callendor creates some sort of overflow that the DO is unable to stop. But that doesn't really sound like it would be likely.

 

In short, I have no idea. But the merger was important enough to be foreshadowed so early in the book and that has to mean something.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Ian Ohlander