Realizing Mat is married to the Empress..

[johnnyrocket]

Source? I asked in the Simple Question simple answer thread a while ago and the consensus seemed to be that he had got a silent promotion of some sort - I'd find it highly unlikely if it was still Prince of the Ravens.

 

 

Why? Queen Elizabeth's husband is still known as Prince Phillip.

I can definitely see it going both ways. On the one hand, Tuon became a different person when she became Fortuona (Queen Elizabeth obviously just switched her title from Princess to Queen) so Mat could have a higher rank, but you could also argue that only Tuon changed and not her husband, so Mat still is the Prince of Ravens. We will hopefully find out in a few months.

[Juggler]

I reckon Rand will mention in front of Mat after moiraine comes back that he STILL needs a truce with the seanchan at which point Mat will say "Er I think I may be able to help"

 

I definately think it will be moiraine, Rand, Mat and Thom in the scene when it happens.

 

 

[wvlr2]

Prince of the Ravens

 

He is basically her General in command of her army when she is not present and able to do so.

But now that she is Empress Fortuona, I'd assume his title changes as well.

 

It Already changed - the TGS after Tuon found out that her whole family was dead - before she became Empress she thought of him as First Prince of Ravins.

[PrncRny]

RIght. I forgot that Thom was there.

Dammit. lol

[Lambada]

Source? I asked in the Simple Question simple answer thread a while ago and the consensus seemed to be that he had got a silent promotion of some sort - I'd find it highly unlikely if it was still Prince of the Ravens.

 

 

Why? Queen Elizabeth's husband is still known as Prince Phillip.

 

Within a single monarchy the ranking goes

Emperor / Empress

King / Queen

Prince / Princess

 

In Mat's case the standard title system would place Kings above him.

Imagine that. A King would be placed above the Empresses own husband (and commander of the armies in her absence). Given how much store Seanchan set by rank, bloodlines and family, that would be incongruous.

 

Prince is one step below King/Queen, that is fine when they are married to a Queen as no-one is then above them except the Queen.

BUT

Prince is two steps below Emperor/Empress. It was one step below (or possibly equal to) DoTM. But two steps below puts too many people above the Empresses own husband.

[CUBAREY]

Prince is two steps below Emperor/Empress. It was one step below (or possibly equal to) DoTM. But two steps below puts too many people above the Empresses own husband.

 

The same could be said for the Britsh royal family, but the Queen's (she used to also be known as the Empress of India) is still called Prince.

 

 

Moreover, the Seanchen are also quite tradition bound and if the traditional name was Prince of Ravens they would not easily change it simply because the Empress now has prmitted the creation of vassel Kings.

[Shard]

There is no standard to titles in Monarchies, the Egyptians used Pharohs for theirs. What it all boils down to is them using a word that means "I'm the leader and your not."

[Mardy]

Prince of the Ravens

 

He is basically her General in command of her army when she is not present and able to do so.

But now that she is Empress Fortuona, I'd assume his title changes as well.

 

It Already changed - the TGS after Tuon found out that her whole family was dead - before she became Empress she thought of him as First Prince of Ravins.

 

Hes right hes First Prince of the Ravens now shes Empress, i think someone mentioned it somewhere but that seems to indicate a right to succession should she bite the dust, kind of like how Charles, William and Harry are all princes but when the Queen snuff's it Charles will be crowned, he takes presidence. I also have a suspition that he might be the commander of all Seanchean military force excluding the Deathwatch Guard since there the personal Property of the Empress (may she live forever) but thats just supposition.

[johnnyrocket]

At the end of Gambits in tGS, Tuon thinks of Mat as "Prince of the Ravens" (pg. 310). During her meeting with Rand in A Halo of Blackness, she thinks of Mat as "First Prince of the Ravens" (pg. 546). She is still the Daughter of the Nine Moons in both of these scenes and the Empress is dead. So I think the Prince of Ravens and First Prince of Ravens are the same thing. I can't see why she would give him different titles in these scenes unless they are essentially the same title.

[FarShainMael]

When Tuon thinks of Mat as FPotR she is talking to Rand and has not yet proclaimed herself Empress. That comes after the meeting.

 

Mat married Tuon, and she's 'dead'. How would this affect matters? My own view is that they are no longer married. What do you think?

 

[CUBAREY]

Mat married Tuon, and she's 'dead'. How would this affect matters? My own view is that they are no longer married. What do you think?

 

The name is "dead" not the person.

[Fains nose]

@FarShain, of course they are still married, we have a POV from fortuona as empress (after she "died" as Tuon) where she thinks of Rand as first prince of ravens, the equivelant of prince consort, i.e husband of the Queen

[FarShainMael]

No. As I pointed out, Tuon thinks of Mat as FPotR in Ch 35, during the meeting with Rand (p 546, half way down UK hardback). She does not declare herself as Empress until after Rand has left - two pages later.

 

(Oh, and BTW - Rand is FPotR??  ;)  )

 

[FarShainMael]

Mat married Tuon, and she's 'dead'. How would this affect matters? My own view is that they are no longer married. What do you think?

 

The name is "dead" not the person.

 

p558:

"Tuon was dead. Gone, cast aside, forgotten. Tuon had been the DotNM. She was now just a notation in the histories."

 

That sounds pretty final to me, and I suggest that we ought to be paying it serious attention, especially as far as the husband of the DotNM is concerned.

 

[ironcross]

i dont think rj would have played up the whole courtship between them (over 3 books) just to thro it away without it having done something important.

[Shard]

So FSM your saying that Fortouna will act differently then Toun?

[Durinax]

So FSM your saying that Fortouna will act differently then Toun?

I think so, after all she has much more power now, is the leader of the 'new' empire since the old one is now in sahmbles.

 

and she can be less descreet in some ways and has to be more in others. her actions will be totally different then before but her personality will be the same

[FarShainMael]

So FSM your saying that Fortouna will act differently then Toun?

 

I'm sure of it, though not so sure of the details! Consider her position: she's the Empress-in-exile, while the land she's Empress of is (probably) in chaos. She must be feeling the responsibility of that. It must affect how she deals with the DR, what she does about the AS, everything.

 

@ironcross: Plus, she is already feeling an emotional attachment to Matrim. I wouldn't go so far as to say she loves him. But, if he is no longer married to her, that must complicate things. I'd say she regards him as her subject, needing 'to be raised to the High Blood, to shave his head, and to learn the proper way of living' (p546), but already, that seems a shame to her. This attachment must surely affect future events, possibly the more so if they are no longer married.

 

 

(Besides, Mat (Robin) is going to marry Birgitte (Marion).. JK)

 

 

[Shard]

Bridget is tougher then Marion. Wasn't Marion a damsel in distress most of the time? Besides Mat is too pretty for Bridget and yes I know you were JK *heh*

[Decius]

I wouldn't be surprised if Mat was forced to play peacemaker between Fortuona/Rand at some point - maybe the ta'veren thing will pull Mat toward Rand during some sort of conflict between the two leaders.

[FarShainMael]

Bridget is tougher then Marion. Wasn't Marion a damsel in distress most of the time? Besides Mat is too pretty for Bridget and yes I know you were JK *heh*

 

With all those scars? And Nalesean's (I think?) stitching him up like a side of beef! Birgitte should be drooling over him by now!  ;D 

(JK!!!)

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

Bridget is tougher then Marion. Wasn't Marion a damsel in distress most of the time? Besides Mat is too pretty for Bridget and yes I know you were JK *heh*

 

With all those scars? And Nalesean's (I think?) stitching him up like a side of beef! Birgitte should be drooling over him by now!  ;D 

(JK!!!)

 

 

Dont forget he is getting his eye poked out too! She had a thing for Uno. So its still on  :D :D :D

 

 

[FarShainMael]

Of course!!

 

:D  :D  :D

 

[Shard]

Well maybe Mat is Gaidal Cain reborn then. Besides I thought the scars were on his leg and side? Not exactly going to mare his looks if it's under his clothes.

[FarShainMael]

Apart from the missing eye! As for the rest.. erm, this is a PG13 board..