Darkhounds at the crossroads?

[Owayn The Traveller]

We all know that Darkhounds are a rift on Black Hounds and other beastly dogs from folklore in Britain, Ireland and Europe. Also know as Barghest.

A few facts about them:

-The black dog is essentially a nocturnal apparition, often said to be associated with the Devil, and its appearance was regarded as a portent of death.

-It is often associated with electrical storms and also with crossroads, places of execution and ancient pathways.

-In the Isle of Man it is styled Mauthe Dhoog, or Moddey Dhoo .People believe that anyone who sees the dog will die soon after the encounter with the dog.

 

Okay but you was that pack in crossroads after? Fain, Tuon, Rand or Perrin???

 

When is it the worse time to meet Darkhounds of folklore? At crossroads. I just like the fact a large new pack of them show in Crossroads, another example of RJ's masterful skill.

 

So who were they after? I have a gut feeling Perrin. The forsaken have been ordered to kill them, Mat and Perrin. Okay I think this was in the next book. The hounds could of been used just to track and not attack. Once they have the scent they don't lose it. They circled Perrins cam. Why?

 

Is there any connection between Slayer and the hounds. Why is Slayer killing wolves in TAR?

 

For some reason the hounds, Slayer and Fain are all connected in my head and Perrin has a connection with them all. Also we kinda think Perrin has something to do in TAR in the next book and Slayer is connected with that and some have, Luckers among others I think, been musing that the unseen eyes of TAR are the eyes of Shadar Logoth, Fains/mordred gaff, so Fain has tenous connection there and finally Darkhounds are ex-wolves, wolves exist in TAR, the only animal that does. So I do no think its unreasonable that Darkhounds have some link here too. How are they made? Is that what Slayer is doing or aiding the process by killing them in TAR?

 

Pick of a ramble tamble post sorry but hey you got some nice facts about the hounds folklore source.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I dont think they were meant to kill Perrin, a whole pack of the bastards (50 or so, IIRC) just cricled by his camp and left. It doesnt seem likely that they though "oh, nar, too hard, lets leave now". From my observations of the Darkhounds, they will persue a target no matter what (unless crossing flowing water).

 

If they were something to do with Perrin, Im thinking they would be more like spies. But I think they are going after someone else. Fain comes to mind, possibly some other people, I am not sure, but there it is.

 

 

wolves exist in TAR, the only animal that does.

 

Thats not true. All wild animals exist in TAR, its just that Perrin is a wolfbrother, so he interacts with the wolves in TAR (and if you thinking, we havent seen any others, remember that Perrin only sees Hopper in TAR.)

 

So yeah, im not sure, but my best bet is that the Darkhounds are searching for Fain, spying on Perrin on Slayers behalf, or slayer/DO/Forsaken is ordering them to do something nasty that we do not know as of yet.

[Durinax]

the real question is how annoura(?) has found and figured out how to distinguish the 'scent' of a pack and its approximate size.

 

or wait I just thought of something what if the darkhounds are hunting wolvesto turn into darkhounds, it explains everythign. They where on the trail of some wolves when the smelled perrin and since he is a wolfbrother he would have a scent reminiscent to that of a wolf and human, that would have piqued their curiosity and after circlign the camp a few times decided there where no wolves in the camp and left after the wolf pack again

[Barid Bel Medar]

the real question is how annoura(?) has found and figured out how to distinguish the 'scent' of a pack and its approximate size.

 

or wait I just thought of something what if the darkhounds are hunting wolvesto turn into darkhounds, it explains everythign. They where on the trail of some wolves when the smelled perrin and since he is a wolfbrother he would have a scent reminiscent to that of a wolf and human, that would have piqued their curiosity and after circlign the camp a few times decided there where no wolves in the camp and left after the wolf pack again

 

I am pretty sure Annoura gave some kind of reason for knowing, (although I am not sure of the credibility)

 

Your second point actually sounds quite reasonable, It would explain the huge pack size. They started off with the average pack, then were sent to convert wolves, thus the pack grows larger. (I am not sure how the pack thing works, but I am assuming the turned wolf would enter the pack of the Darkhound that turned it)

 

It seems fitting, the Shadow must know that Perrin and his wolves (karatheon cycle) have a part to play in TG, so they may be reducing the numbers now and adding to their own ranks. sounds fair enough

[BKVMC]

It wasnt annoura it was Masuri the Brown sister.

[Duskfire]

It wasnt Perrin; the darkhound pack had been after this target for awhile going by their frustration, and its not as if Perrin had been moving at lightning speed for ages. My guess is either Fain or Rand. Rand has been moving around alot just so spies will spread false rumors about what he is planning, and it could be that the darkhounds are unable to keep up. Fain because well... Fain is just a hard bugger to find for some reason. :P

[Owayn The Traveller]

I dont think they were meant to kill Perrin, a whole pack of the bastards (50 or so, IIRC) just cricled by his camp and left. It doesnt seem likely that they though "oh, nar, too hard, lets leave now". From my observations of the Darkhounds, they will persue a target no matter what (unless crossing flowing water).

 

If they were something to do with Perrin, Im thinking they would be more like spies. But I think they are going after someone else. Fain comes to mind, possibly some other people, I am not sure, but there it is.

 

 

wolves exist in TAR, the only animal that does.

 

Thats not true. All wild animals exist in TAR, its just that Perrin is a wolfbrother, so he interacts with the wolves in TAR (and if you thinking, we havent seen any others, remember that Perrin only sees Hopper in TAR.)

 

So yeah, im not sure, but my best bet is that the Darkhounds are searching for Fain, spying on Perrin on Slayers behalf, or slayer/DO/Forsaken is ordering them to do something nasty that we do not know as of yet.

 

Sorry I also meant that they weren't trying to kill Perrin just keeping tabs on him.

 

I like what Durinax was saying there about the wolves and the darkhounds. How are the darkhounds made? Do we know?

[MikeRiley]

Darkhounds can't travel, but Rand can. I'm assuming the darkhounds can sense their target's location the way Fain is able to. If some packs were set to go after Rand and they're all rushing towards him when he suddenly travels to another location, they would turn and start running towards that new place. Over the course of 8-9 books of Rand traveling around, the packs will have collided and melded with one another over time. Hence the massive pack instead of the small ones Masuri says is normal.

 

Did Rand visit Perrin at all before the darkhounds circled the camp? Or maybe once they got close to the camp, Perrin's ta'veren scent to them was similar to Rand's (we know they're connected via the color swirls too), and they circled the camp to identify their target. The frustration comes in where they determined Perrin was not who they were looking for.

 

 

I like what Durinax was saying there about the wolves and the darkhounds. How are the darkhounds made? Do we know?

 

I might be confusing things here, but I think Hopper tells Perrin in one of the earlier books that a dark hound could take out a whole wolf pack but they would attack it anyway. He might have been referring to the neverborn, though. I do recall Hopper shying away from Perrin's questions about darkhounds at one point. I think he responds with the explanation after the shying away.

 

If the darkhounds could turn other wolves into darkhounds on their own then the wolf packs would stay clear of them at all costs. If anybody can remember what exactly Hopper said about it, it could confirm Durinax's theory or make it more solid. It's possible Hopper said they avoid the darkhounds altogether.

[Barid Bel Medar]

That was said about the Myrddraal, not Darkhounds.

 

Not sure how the Darkhounds are actually made, I dont think there has been an actual explaination other than they are born of corrupted wolves.

 

So yeah, not sure?

[Owayn The Traveller]

Hey didn't Luc have wolves all over his clothing? Obviously I mean wolf patterns and insignia and the like not that he wolves crawling all over him. That would be too unwieldy.

I'm not sure if this would signify much but it does seem like it might.

 

Are they the only used shadowspawn, none of the wild ones in the blight, that qwe don't have an explnation about?

[Lynander]

Elyas goes into detail on Darkhounds in CoT pages 262-263.  He basically says that they are created from Darkhounds eating the souls of gravely injured wolves. 

 

As far as who sent them and why...

1. It's Slayer (we've already seen him kill wolves in the Dream World) after Fain/Rand

 

2. it might even be Fain using the DO's agents (again) for his bidding and sending them after Rand. 

 

3. or even (insert random Forsaken) sending them after Mat/Rand, since it's obvious they aren't after Perrin. 

 

4. Maybe the Hounds are only after making an army of themselves for the Final Battle and not after anyone specifically. 

[FarShainMael]

The black dog is essentially a nocturnal apparition, often said to be associated with the Devil, and its appearance was regarded as a portent of death.

 

Aha! The Grim!

 

Fascinating stuff there!

 

I too think they're keeping tabs on Perrin. They may be waiting for the wolves to gather to their King, and then there's going to be an almighty battle as part of TG, as Lynander says.

 

[MikeRiley]

The black dog is essentially a nocturnal apparition, often said to be associated with the Devil, and its appearance was regarded as a portent of death.

 

Aha! The Grim!

 

 

It might match a bit more closely with the banshee since it's nocturnal. The banshee would appear at night crying which was a portent of death. If you heard or saw it 3 nights in a row then somebody close to you would die that night. If it was crying your name, you're the one who is going to die. It's also believed that the banshee can't cross bodies of water which is a trait shared with the darkhounds.

[FarShainMael]

Good point!

 

Of course if the said banshee has a speech impediment it could always slip a note saying 'eeeeeeooooooeeeeeooeeee' under your door..  ;)

[Impressive Bosom]

They gotta be after Fain. Probably the reason we haven't seen him of late. My only question would be how is he evading them unless its using The Ways?

[aunt_pol]

I wonder would a regular Myrdraal (sp?)(hate admitting that!) be able to command the nasty mutts?

[Durinax]

I wonder would a regular Myrdraal (sp?)(hate admitting that!) be able to command the nasty mutts?

I dont think so, I think the only shadowspawn Myrdraal can command are trollocs.

 

As for what I said earlier it makes a lot of sense, especially that they are chasing wolves and turning them, we know they can catch the wolves because they do not have to rest. As for finding Perrin they sensed somethign of a wolf about him and since they where hunting wolves would have investigated a bit until they decided this anomoly was not a wolf and continued on their hunt.

 

Reason it cannot be mat or rand is because both spent long periods of time in one spot, the darkhounds would have caught up.

[Duskfire]

I too think they're keeping tabs on Perrin. They may be waiting for the wolves to gather to their King, and then there's going to be an almighty battle as part of TG, as Lynander says.

 

Masuri said: This one has an intense admixture of... I suppose you would call it impatience. That really isn't strong enough, by far - as well call a stabwound a pinprick - but it will do. I would say their hunt has been going on for some time, and their prey is eluding them somehow.

 

That doesn't sound like keeping tabs on Perrin - or anyone - at all. They are obviously chasing someone, have been for sometime, and are frustrated because they can't catch up with them.

 

Reason it cannot be mat or rand is because both spent long periods of time in one spot, the darkhounds would have caught up.

 

I dont know where you got that idea. Mat yes definetly, especially since he was in Ebou Dar for ages. But Rand has been travelling all over the place laying false trails so spies wouldn't know what he was doing. He has travelled between the Aiel Waste, Tear, Camelyn, Cairheren, Arad Doman, all in the space of a couple of books. If the Darkhounds were chasing him, they would definetly be frustrated due to him not staying in one spot for long.

[Durinax]

Quote

Reason it cannot be mat or rand is because both spent long periods of time in one spot, the darkhounds would have caught up.

 

I dont know where you got that idea. Mat yes definetly, especially since he was in Ebou Dar for ages. But Rand has been travelling all over the place laying false trails so spies wouldn't know what he was doing. He has travelled between the Aiel Waste, Tear, Camelyn, Cairheren, Arad Doman, all in the space of a couple of books. If the Darkhounds were chasing him, they would definetly be frustrated due to him not staying in one spot for long.

 

after that he was in Far Madding for a good while, then he was in Algarans Manor for a long while, then the same areas in Arad Doman for a long while

[FarShainMael]

I too think they're keeping tabs on Perrin. They may be waiting for the wolves to gather to their King, and then there's going to be an almighty battle as part of TG, as Lynander says.

 

Masuri said: This one has an intense admixture of... I suppose you would call it impatience. That really isn't strong enough, by far - as well call a stabwound a pinprick - but it will do. I would say their hunt has been going on for some time, and their prey is eluding them somehow.

 

That doesn't sound like keeping tabs on Perrin - or anyone - at all. They are obviously chasing someone, have been for sometime, and are frustrated because they can't catch up with them.

 

Perhaps they're after Fain.

 

[Bowden]

I too think they're keeping tabs on Perrin. They may be waiting for the wolves to gather to their King, and then there's going to be an almighty battle as part of TG, as Lynander says.

 

Masuri said: This one has an intense admixture of... I suppose you would call it impatience. That really isn't strong enough, by far - as well call a stabwound a pinprick - but it will do. I would say their hunt has been going on for some time, and their prey is eluding them somehow.

 

That doesn't sound like keeping tabs on Perrin - or anyone - at all. They are obviously chasing someone, have been for sometime, and are frustrated because they can't catch up with them.

 

Perhaps they're after Fain.

 

 

Or maybe they don't know Carridan is dead yet :P

[Owayn The Traveller]

Hey maybe they are after Sammael. Doesa the shadow know he is dead?

Good point!

 

Of course if the said banshee has a speech impediment it could always slip a note saying 'eeeeeeooooooeeeeeooeeee' under your door..  ;)

 

:D. Love it.

 

The black dog is essentially a nocturnal apparition, often said to be associated with the Devil, and its appearance was regarded as a portent of death.

 

Aha! The Grim!

 

 

It might match a bit more closely with the banshee since it's nocturnal. The banshee would appear at night crying which was a portent of death. If you heard or saw it 3 nights in a row then somebody close to you would die that night. If it was crying your name, you're the one who is going to die. It's also believed that the banshee can't cross bodies of water which is a trait shared with the darkhounds.

 

The Banshee doesn't actively do anything to bring the death about though. It's more an early warning system. Also if you find a comb with some of the teeth missing its supposely belonging to a Banshee, especially brown or black, so don't pick one up thinking you've found a comb bonaza. Their a riff on the blackhounds, black dogs and Barghest.

 

I too think they're keeping tabs on Perrin. They may be waiting for the wolves to gather to their King, and then there's going to be an almighty battle as part of TG, as Lynander says.

 

Masuri said: This one has an intense admixture of... I suppose you would call it impatience. That really isn't strong enough, by far - as well call a stabwound a pinprick - but it will do. I would say their hunt has been going on for some time, and their prey is eluding them somehow.

 

That doesn't sound like keeping tabs on Perrin - or anyone - at all. They are obviously chasing someone, have been for sometime, and are frustrated because they can't catch up with them.

 

Perhaps they're after Fain.

 

 

Or maybe they don't know Carridan is dead yet :P

 

Well that does kinda scupper my whole their after Perrin thing. Any chnce Masuri could be black ajah? I can't recall her at all. That's the problem with the Aes Sedai.

 

Could they be after a dead person? It does kinda point to Fain though. I there anyone else that they might after?

 

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

Oh remember the joke Mat tried involving dogs covered with flour. He was trying to make them be Darkhounds right and who did he play it on Perrin's blacksmith lodgers. Is that some foreshadowing of something to do with Perrin and the hounds?

[Demiandre]

I would say that Perrin will have to do something against Slayer, maybe, Fain, Darkhounds, and Wolfs. And Tel'Aran'Rhiod. All of this seems to be interconnected a lot. Maybe too much. But I think it will be too much for Lord Perrin-of-the-Two-Rivers-take-three-books-rescuing-my-wife-Goldeneyes to do in two books.

 

But I then remembered Perrin thinking about how Hopper would react learning about the Wolfkingness-through- Prophecy of their Young Bull, and the fact that Hopper tend to ask Perrin a lot of time to hunt.

And added with the fact that the wolves have a name for Rand : Shadowkiller. And Darkhounds Shadowkiller.

So I think Perrin will deal with Slayer in T'A'R and somehow, mastering his wolfself and beeing accredited as something that sounds like Kingbrother or Shadowhunter, or whatever they name him but I think they have to have a name for that person, so perfectly fulfilling his small part of the Karaethon Cycle just ad Mat did, while Rand will slay the Darkhound painly during TG, with maybe help of Perrin troups. And whatever for Fain. Except falling in the Pit of Doom with his retrieved Dagger muttering "my precious" in the way to the bottom...

[Owayn The Traveller]

Some more interesting thoughts on Darhounds-

 

Is there any characters based or taking traits and ideas from Hercules in the series? I'm not going way off topic here, one of Herc's twelve labours was tackling the black dog Cerebus and bringing in up from the underworld. This could lead to something with Perrin and TAR. Both TAR and the greek underworld are other places. Ah Perrin fear of losing himself in his berserker/wolf persona does kinda resonate with Herc killing his family in a blind rage.

 

 

From the gob of Elyas Machera in Crossroads chapter Whirlpools of Colour:

'...A hundred wolves could die trying to kill one Shadowbrother. Worse, if they fail, the Darkhound can eat the souls of those that aren’t dead yet, and in a year or so, there’d be a new pack of Shadowbrothers that didn’t remember ever being wolves'

 

A year or so. How long has passed between Perrin in the battle of two rivers in Shadow Rising, I think, and Crossroads? Roughly a year by any chance? If so, it appears that maybe that is what Luc/Isam/Slayer was up to in TAR, creating new darkhounds. Okay I know Elyas claims that Darkhounds beget Darkhounds but who's to say that there isn't another way (moonbeams and clutching anyone).

 

 

Something take might place Masuri in doubt. According to two very reliable sources, Lan and Hopper two old level headed boyos, Darkhounds haven't been around since the Trollocs Wars, lan, and Hopper also states 'haven't seen them in a long while' both of these in the Dragon Reborn. Yet Masuri claims to have come across seven different packs before. Now Lan might just be quoting some belief amoung Borderlanders but surely Hopper knows what he's on about. And if Hopper says we haven't seen them in a long while he means all wolves. So maybe Masuri's assertion that the Darkhounds smell frustrated in others Perrin they ain't after and keeping tabs on you. So in other words, relax sugar. Could the hounds be after Perrin? Okay it seems that Masuri is a lightfriend but her and the old levelheads are in contradiction unless Masuri has traveled in the blight and possibly extensively to run across so many packs.

 

Now over at the 13th depository they muse on who the darkhounds are after, stating that the cirteria for this person is:

 

-Someone not of the big Three (whose ta'veren influence can be sensed in the Pattern by some Forsaken and shouldn't need hunting as such - and anyway the Darkhounds did not attack Perrin);

 

 

-someone who doesn’t know balefire;

 

 

-someone who is hard to find, get near and survive; and

 

 

-someone the Shadow wants dead.

 

Okay the first one. I seem to recall that only Lanfear and one or two others could read the pattern to track ta'veren. Now I'm a lot less knowledgible in WoT lore than them guys but who knows.

All other points can point to Perrin and Perrin has been travelling with his two Ashaman(names?), so this would make it difficult for his trail to be tracked. Okay I believe it was only Moridin and Lanfear who could do this.

 

 

Okay who has used Darkhounds in the books-Sammael. So Sam is dead so it might still be his pack on some old errand or whomever is posing as Sammael is using them. Now who has been posing as Sammael? It can only be someone with the chosen mark so forsaken, this might suggest faintly that some remaining forsaken cannot use the pattern to find ta'veran. This is a fairly slight thoery, if you could even call it that.

 

 

Perrin dreaming about the darkhounds in Crossroads:

 

He ran easily through the night in spite of the snow that covered the ground. He was one with the shadows, slipping through the forest, the moonlight almost as clear to his eyes as the light of the sun. A cold wind ruffled his thick fur, and suddenly brought a scent that made his hackles stand and his heart race with a hatred greater than that for the Neverborn. Hatred, and a sure knowledge of death coming. There were no choices to be made, not now. He ran harder, toward death...

 

Could he have been smelling them in the wolfdream or rather smelling them in the real world and it was coming through in his dream.

 

 

Okay a thought on Darkhounds footprints. Okay the only show up on stone. Could they be in any way be like Fades and be in two worlds or out of sync?

 

 

Okay a dream from Egwene about Perrin:

 

...of Perrin running from someone deadly,

 

-The Dragon Reborn, Fires in Cairhien

 

A wolf-- she was sure it was Perrin, though-- fighting a man whose face kept changing.

 

-The Shadow Rising, What Lies Hidden

 

Kinda sounds like Slayer/Luc/Isam. Heck he even says he like TAR cause he can use who he can be. This might be who Perrin faces in Towers of Midnight.

 

 

Phew! *wipes forehead*

That has to be my longest and most rambling post. If you only take one thing from it. The Darkhounds,TAR and Slayer are all connected and it is what Perrin will face in upcoming books. Destroying the Darkhounds, mastering his wolf and dreaming ability and butting Slayer with his noggin thusly killing him.