Rands new sword

[MikeRiley]

Hawkwing's sword is probably referred to in that "prophecy". It's not one though, it's a prayer written in an account of the events that took place at the end of the third age. "...and the great sword of justice defend us" isn't the same as saying "and the great sword Justice defend us". The sword of justice in this case is used just the same as "the long arm of the law" would be. "of justice" suggests the sword belongs to justice and is not named that.

[Shadow Rider]

I think Rand thought it fitting because it was Hawkwing's sword and it was both found and presented to him right before his meeting with Tuon. To him it would have been a symbol of his right to lead the Seanchan.

 

Yeahh, I was thinking that aswell, just thought it might mean something more, because he said "stranglely, not from LTT memories" something along those lines, suggesting that it had something to do with LTT and the war of power, not just Hawkwing.

 

From EotW Prologue 'Dragonmount'

 

...... Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of Justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

 

I think Justice has a part to play, I think Rand may give the sword to Galad, when they sort their differences. Justice should go to Galad because thats what Galad is all about, doing right no matter the cost. Galad with Justice leading the Whitecloaks.

[MikeRiley]

What if the Lord of the Dawn and the great sword of justice was in reference to two separate beings? In this case, Galad himself (or somebody else) could be the great sword of justice, just the same as a person is referred to as the Lion Sword (I think!).

[FarShainMael]

It interests me that this sword was found under water.. Lady of the Lake, anyone?

 

[FarShainMael]

Also, to reinforce my earlier point that the sword was just meant as a symbol to Rand that he has the right to rule Seanchan, Rand was given king Laman's sword right before he entered Cairhien behind the Shaido. It's all it was to Rand, a symbolic gesture that he's above all and should rule. Rand at this point in The Gathering Storm was completely insane.

 

 

Nice!  I'm not convinced Rand will wind up ruling the Seanchan but whether he does or not this is pretty astute.

 

I am convinced.. but see my ramblings elsewhere.

 

[rew]

Here are my ramblings on the subject as a symbol (I wrote this up for somewhere else and thought I'd post it here since it seemed to fit...)

 

The swords that Rand uses and finds are symbols for his personal development and abilities. So here is an overview of the Swords that Rand uses as well as some of my own thoughts and connections (I'm sure there are many more I'm missing):

 

Tam's Sword:

-Used in EotW and TGH, This is the sword of a farmer, quite literally, and despite the fact that it is power-wrought and Heron-marked, it has no other cosmic power nor is it from any powerful, important or significant place, and thus symbolizes Rand at his most innocent and most common/weak. It is solely his, given him by his father, and thus represents Rand's own physical prowess. It is an object that Rand has mastered on his own, by his own hard work he has learned to use it. It represents his beginnings in Emond's Field and thus, when it melts, it represents his inability to return to that innocent state- at that moment in TGH he must recognize that he is more (even if he doesn't truly see himself as the DR) than he was and cannot return. This also represents his only true powers and abilities at the time- his physical strength. The moment he fully becomes cognizant of his magical powers, he must move beyond this.

 

The Sword of Saidin:

-Throughout TDR and partway through TSR, Rand turns to a fiery sword of Saidin. This sword represents Rand's changing reliance on his abilities with the One Power and becoming the master "mage" he needs to be. However, it also represents his lack of control and his coming to understand this ability. Whereas he can use it to kill, sometimes he is unable to control/command the power to come at all times. This symbolizes as well the lack of control that Rand has over his fate, life and personal choices. He begins his personal journey of discovering who he is as well as his new powers with this sword.

-It should be noted, that he does pull out Callandor at this time- but he is rightfully afraid of using it, because he has no control over it. Callandor will represent his full control over the power (see below).

-His major usage of this sword ends roughly at the same time that he 1)gains a teacher (Asmodean) to train him, and his gaining of new abilities with the power and 2) his gaining another sword.

 

Laman's Sword:

-This sword, used from TSR onward til TGS, represents Rand's development into a fully flawed earthly ruler.

-First, it belong to another king- Laman- who governed very badly. It represents bad governance and extremely flawed leadership: Laman squandered the resources of his nation (especially by cutting down Avendesora). Rand, during this period continuous squanders resources by fiat rule. This does not mean that he didn't get good things done, but that he didn't accomplish them well. He fights with his subordinates, he forces people to follow his rule with threats and force, squishing them if they don't fall in line. Thus, it is a symbol of folly in leadership, and folly resulting in the death of natural entities and hurting nature and the nations- Laman's Folly was cutting down the Tree of Life leading to war and the destruction of his country (burning the topless towers) and others. Rand's Folly is bad leadership, actions and becoming too hard (for example: Rand circumvents the law by exiling Colavere after she takes the throne. By the law, she should have hanged, but Rand places himself above the law, something Elayne warned was bad, and changing it) and leads to the ruining of the land and all the countries in Randland.

-As well, Laman's actions are called "Laman's Pride"- shown by his actions, as well as the extensive and elaborate gems and jewels on the hilt and scabbard as bought by Aviendha. Rand's Pride is shown by his personal actions in battle, i.e. wearing the sword and hoping to run into Couladin, feeling invincible, etc.

-This sword though also represents the might of the Aiel nation (as odd as that might sound). The Aiel came and destroyed all in their path to kill Laban and took the sword as proof of their might (his head wouldn't do...). Rand has come to control this might, which was voluntarily given him: the warriors choose to follow him, Aviendha chose to give him the sword voluntarily; both occur as a means of meeting toh (the general of the Aiel for failing their charge and Avi's for her personal toh)

-This also has connection with the Sword of Domocles motif surrounding Rand (Domocles = Laman Demandred...) signifying the stresses and balancing act Rand must endure.

 

Justice, the Sword of Arthur Hawkwing:

-This sword is newly bequeathed and represents Rand growing beyond his Laman-style poor leadership and entering a new era in his capabilities and personal growth.

-As the Sword of AH, it represents benevolent, however still flawed leadership and justice. AH was able to bring full peace to Randland, however he was still distrusting of AS, potentially his greatest ally.

-As the symbol of Justice, this sword cannot be wielded well by someone without some sort of counterbalancing love/mercy/compromise- something that Rand discovers at the end of TGS. (Note: Rand gains the sword round about the time that he gains his epiphany)

-As for the connection to LTT- if the Sword was connected to LTT, it once again represents the flawed, untrusting and lacking of political compromise, albeit effective and benevolent ruler. It would symbolize the LTT that had all the might of the Age of Legends, however still had to assault Shayol Gul with only male AS, because he couldn't persuade, compromise and gain the female AS trust and support.

-As for what this would foreshadow (because we haven't yet seen what Rand will do now that he has it) I would say:

1) This should foreshadow Rand's ability to bring peace to the continent and truly binding all under one banner.

2) Just as Laman's Sword represented the might of the Aiel, this sword foreshadows Rand gaining control over or acceptance by the remnants of AH's might- i.e. the Seanchan. (I personally don't believe that Rand will kneel in submission to the Crystal Throne, as in give himself to the control of Fortuona. I think that this will come to pass in a different way...)

 

Callandor:

-This sword is the symbol of the full power that Rand will yield. It is elaborately connected with the prophecies of the Dragon and represents a stage and level of abilites that Rand has not yet attained. It is the embodiment of the foreseen might and power that he must grow into and prepare himself for. If taken too early, it results in failure, death and madness. A gift that when touched too early, or when put in the wrong hands results in a curse.

-It represents true power and authority, as well as trust/love/compromise- see the "defect": having to be used by a man and two women.

-As an extremely powerful sa'angreal and as one involving the trust and working together of Saidin and Saidar, it represents the might and power of the Age of Legends, of which Rand is the direct heir as the DR.

-However, to this point, Rand has not developed to the point of being able to legitimately use it. Yes, he has used it, but when he has drawn it (other than the first time and frying Ishy), it has caused more problems than help: it causes paralyzing paranoia and overpowering hubris- for example, in the Stone of Tear (trying to raise the girl) and the battle with the Seanchan (KoD? killing his own soldiers), etc. When it is used correctly, i.e. by Narishma, et al, at the battle at Aridhol, it has devastating effect against evil (defense against the Forsaken).

 

 

SO, in the end, I think that while there might be something important plot-wise for the sword (something like what has been mentioned with connecting with the Seanchan, or maybe something involving Terez's theory about Rand being mortally wounded again...), one of it's symbolic functions in the series is an indication of Rand moving to the penultimate level of leadership and capability- that of Emperor, not simply king- which is still not the pinnacle of his development- meaning the Messiahship/true champion of the Light. 

 

[FarShainMael]

Fascinating symbology!

 

 

 

<  picky> ..can anyone be 'mortally' wounded more than once, at least in a given lifetime...  <  /picky>

[rew]

I understand your being picky :)

 

I was just thinking of the two never-healing wounds.  Either will kill him eventually, and they can't be healed....so, mortal wounds? meaning that if he gets another wound that will kill him...it would be again...

 

man, semantics can be difficult when talking about things that don't exist in real life...

[FarShainMael]

Tricky, isn't it!  ;)

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

Ws it found underwater? Wsn't aware of that.

[Vermillion]

Rand also burned Ishy with a shooting Sword of Light in the Eye of the World. 

[FarShainMael]

Ws it found underwater? Wsn't aware of that.

 

(quickly weaves Air to hold book in place.. ;)  )

 

This is in tGS, Ch37. Rand is preparing to take on Graendal. He picks up the sword, and thinks 'Such a strange weapon those scholars had found beneath the submerged statue. The sword felt so old.'

 

No indication given of whose statue or where it was found!

 

Interestingly, he then goes on to wonder whether he was wearing the sword that day as 'a symbol of something'.

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

Ah yes. Ive only read tGS the twice.

[Jon Paul]

-First, it belong to another king- Laman- who governed very badly. It represents bad governance and extremely flawed leadership: Laman squandered the resources of his nation (especially by cutting down Avendesora). Rand, during this period continuous squanders resources by fiat rule. This does not mean that he didn't get good things done, but that he didn't accomplish them well. He fights with his subordinates, he forces people to follow his rule with threats and force, squishing them if they don't fall in line. Thus, it is a symbol of folly in leadership, and folly resulting in the death of natural entities and hurting nature and the nations- Laman's Folly was cutting down the Tree of Life leading to war and the destruction of his country (burning the topless towers) and others. Rand's Folly is bad leadership, actions and becoming too hard (for example: Rand circumvents the law by exiling Colavere after she takes the throne. By the law, she should have hanged, but Rand places himself above the law, something Elayne warned was bad, and changing it) and leads to the ruining of the land and all the countries in Randland.

 

Of course, Rand should have just asked those plotting to have his throat slit whilst he sleeps, in a very kinf and soft voice, if they would pretty please reconsider it.

 

The fact is that Rand did have an effective leadership.  He had to strong arm nobles who plotted against him at every turn.  There was no other option.  Rand was rather honest about it though.  He cudgled you into doing what had to be done sure, but I'd rather the cudgel that I see coming at me than the powder in my evning nightcap that puts me to sleep for good.

 

Rand and Laman are nothing alike, that is if we assume Laman was like any of his peers.

 

Rand's Pride is shown by his personal actions in battle, i.e. wearing the sword and hoping to run into Couladin, feeling invincible, etc.

 

I don't think you understand Rand here.. Rand did not wear the sword out of mere pride.  He did not want to fight Couladin out of pride.  He felt he had a duty and a responsibility to fight Couladin and he wanted to do it on fair ground.  He was right when he said if he faced a non-channeler with the power, it would be like a grown man manhandling a young boy.

 

I disagree with Rand, he didn't need to fight Couladin.  But when you place the nobility of his behaviour here, the respect he shows even to a sworn enemy, and label it pride.. that's insulting.

 

And Rand has very rarely felt invincible.. he has always been aware of what he is capable of, that is true.  But he knows he can easily fall.  He knows all it takes is one slip on the razor's edge and he's done.

[StMilli]

Ws it found underwater? Wsn't aware of that.

 

This is in tGS, Ch37. Rand is preparing to take on Graendal. He picks up the sword, and thinks 'Such a strange weapon those scholars had found beneath the submerged statue. The sword felt so old.'

 

 

Anyone else wonder why he would put so much emphasis on how old the sword felt? He's owned two swords that are over 3000 years old and this one feels old.

[farthammer]

That's weird, maybe it was just an accident, but he refers to it as the statue.  Maybe I missed out and it's already known what statue it was, but otherwise Rand knows the statue.  Sounds like the female CK on Tremalking, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense if that exact sword was Hawkwings.  Unless it was yet again from a previous Hawkwing.

[Fains nose]

I think from the BWB that hawkwing got his sword from the defeated false dragon Guire Amalasan. It has been confirmed that Rands new sword is Hawkwings sword. Could the sword though feel so old because it belonged to Rand al'Thor in the previous third age in the last turning

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I think Rand thought it fitting because it was Hawkwing's sword and it was both found and presented to him right before his meeting with Tuon. To him it would have been a symbol of his right to lead the Seanchan.

 

It wasn't Hawkwings sword. It was Guaire Amalasans sword, hence the Dragon markings. Hawkwing just kept it later as a trophy.

[MikeRiley]

I think Rand thought it fitting because it was Hawkwing's sword and it was both found and presented to him right before his meeting with Tuon. To him it would have been a symbol of his right to lead the Seanchan.

 

It wasn't Hawkwings sword. It was Guaire Amalasans sword, hence the Dragon markings. Hawkwing just kept it later as a trophy.

 

Pointlessly being technical. My property is not mine, I only own it until I die.

[cortezthekiller]

I think Rand thought it fitting because it was Hawkwing's sword and it was both found and presented to him right before his meeting with Tuon. To him it would have been a symbol of his right to lead the Seanchan.

 

It wasn't Hawkwings sword. It was Guaire Amalasans sword, hence the Dragon markings. Hawkwing just kept it later as a trophy.

 

Pointlessly being technical. My property is not mine, I only own it until I die.

 

 

I don't think that's a pointless technicality.  The sword belonged to an important false Dragon before Hawkwing, I think that's interesting...

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I think Rand thought it fitting because it was Hawkwing's sword and it was both found and presented to him right before his meeting with Tuon. To him it would have been a symbol of his right to lead the Seanchan.

 

It wasn't Hawkwings sword. It was Guaire Amalasans sword, hence the Dragon markings. Hawkwing just kept it later as a trophy.

 

Pointlessly being technical. My property is not mine, I only own it until I die.

 

 

Right. Except it was the sword which Amalasan, the most notorious False Dragon, used to carve his Empire and nearly take over Randland itself. Part of the reason Hawkwing was able to conquer everything so easily was that much of the initial resistance had been previously crushed and destroyed by Amalasan.

 

What does Hawkwing have to do with Dragons? The entire symbolism does not fit him one bit. It's Amalasans sword through and through, since Amalasan proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn and lead armies of Dragonsworn. Hawkwing not so much.

[Shadow Rider]

Didn't Rand say he remembered it from his own memories and not those of LTT?  That would mean he saw it in the glass pillars or was shown an image of it in Finnland.

 

I don't know, I'll have to go back and reread that chapter.

 

I, however, think it is just another attempt to tie Rand to Arthurian legend, along the Excalibur line.  Somewhat lamely (so far).

 

 

 

Maybe LTT wasn't paying attention at that point in time....we might see Rand being presented with the sword in ToM.

[Shadow Rider]

Can someone provide a Quote or Reference stating Heronless swords were presented to the common soldier.

[Shadow Rider]

I understand your being picky :)

 

I was just thinking of the two never-healing wounds.  Either will kill him eventually, and they can't be healed....so, mortal wounds? meaning that if he gets another wound that will kill him...it would be again...

 

man, semantics can be difficult when talking about things that don't exist in real life...

 

Another wound?........ "The three become one." LoL!

[rew]

-First, it belong to another king- Laman- who governed very badly. It represents bad governance and extremely flawed leadership: Laman squandered the resources of his nation (especially by cutting down Avendesora). Rand, during this period continuous squanders resources by fiat rule. This does not mean that he didn't get good things done, but that he didn't accomplish them well. He fights with his subordinates, he forces people to follow his rule with threats and force, squishing them if they don't fall in line. Thus, it is a symbol of folly in leadership, and folly resulting in the death of natural entities and hurting nature and the nations- Laman's Folly was cutting down the Tree of Life leading to war and the destruction of his country (burning the topless towers) and others. Rand's Folly is bad leadership, actions and becoming too hard (for example: Rand circumvents the law by exiling Colavere after she takes the throne. By the law, she should have hanged, but Rand places himself above the law, something Elayne warned was bad, and changing it) and leads to the ruining of the land and all the countries in Randland.

 

Of course, Rand should have just asked those plotting to have his throat slit whilst he sleeps, in a very kinf and soft voice, if they would pretty please reconsider it.

 

The fact is that Rand did have an effective leadership.  He had to strong arm nobles who plotted against him at every turn.  There was no other option.  Rand was rather honest about it though.  He cudgled you into doing what had to be done sure, but I'd rather the cudgel that I see coming at me than the powder in my evning nightcap that puts me to sleep for good.

 

Rand and Laman are nothing alike, that is if we assume Laman was like any of his peers.

 

Rand's Pride is shown by his personal actions in battle, i.e. wearing the sword and hoping to run into Couladin, feeling invincible, etc.

 

I don't think you understand Rand here.. Rand did not wear the sword out of mere pride.  He did not want to fight Couladin out of pride.  He felt he had a duty and a responsibility to fight Couladin and he wanted to do it on fair ground.  He was right when he said if he faced a non-channeler with the power, it would be like a grown man manhandling a young boy.

 

I disagree with Rand, he didn't need to fight Couladin.  But when you place the nobility of his behaviour here, the respect he shows even to a sworn enemy, and label it pride.. that's insulting.

 

And Rand has very rarely felt invincible.. he has always been aware of what he is capable of, that is true.  But he knows he can easily fall.  He knows all it takes is one slip on the razor's edge and he's done.

 

I don't know if you understood the purpose of the comparison. 

First, I was not saying that Rand and Laman are alike, as people.  I was saying that Laman's Sword can easily be seen as a symbol of Rand's actions and the types of flawed leadership and pride that he exhibits from tFoH through to tGS.  If you can't find examples of pride and flawed leadership through Rand's actions in those books, I don't know what to say...

 

Similarly, I won't argue with you regarding backstabbing nobles.  I was in no way saying that Rand didn't come up against opposition, nor that he should just roll over and let them do what they want (slit his throat, etc).  I was saying that the type of leadership that he did exhibit in no way either helped win over his enemies and/or end the opposition (you could argue that it did the exact opposite, increasing their opposition and growing the rebellions).  As well, if you reread what I wrote, even the part that you quoted, I in no way said that Rand wasn't effective.  He got what he wanted out of them.  The way he got that though is where he failed to be a good leader/ruler.

Even further, Rand carrying the sword is a symbol of the way Rand acts.  I was in no means saying that Rand was justified or not justified for the ways that he acted, simply that the sword he carried is a symbol of how he would and does act.   

 

As for examples, perhaps Couladin wasn't the best example to lead with (though in my defence: Rand's pride is not exemplified in the fact that he want's to meet Couladin on fair footing.  It is in the fact that Rand, who held a sword for the first time less than a year or two previously, feels that he, in normal, one on one combat, could kill Couladin, an Aiel warrior who is so good with the spear that he is leading an entire clan and who Mat, with all his memories and abilities gained from magical sources, was barely able to beat). 

Remember though, that this symbol covers Rand's choices, actions and thoughts not simply for the battle for Cairhein, but for the huge amount of time that Rand carries/uses/possesses Laman's Sword as his own- his battles/interactions with the Seanchan, his attacks on various Forsaken, reveling at being crowned King of Illian, his approaches and attitudes towards the AS, Cadsuane, and even his friends and lovers, and perhaps most tellingly how he misuses, insults and nearly alienates all of the Aiel that do follow him.