Loony Theory: Mesaana's Good

[Luckers]

So I've been doing finnicky editing on my own book, and that always makes me go very strange--so please note I'm mostly just having fun here.

 

But could she be good? Consider.

 

1. She refuses to take part in the Cleansing. An act of cowardice or an attempt to allow Rand the chance he needs to cleanse saidin?

 

2. She's misled the Shadow as to just how dangerous the Aes Sedai are, telling them that the Aes Sedai will serve the shadow. Honest hubris, or an intentional deception?

 

3. She broke the Tower and has at all times attempted to disrupt the Aes Sedai. A 'Let The Lord of Chaos Rule' thing, or could it be a very clever method of keeping Aes Sedai stupidity from causing a disaster?

 

4. Her claims about the protections of the angreal stash in the Tower--Egwene beat them easy enough. Was this then just an attempt to protect them from the other Forsaken? Why hasn't she taken any.

 

5. and finally she was able to swear herself not a darkfriend because she is--not a darkfriend.

 

The failures of a fool, or the actions of a highly capable double agent dating back even to the War of Shadow?

[Elend]

I kinda like this to be honest.

 

So many Forsaken have been pretty incompetent. I understand the whole "evil is selfish and stupid" theme that RJ was pushing with so many of them, but it'd be nice if one was a double agent.

 

But I really doubt it. I get the feeling the only twists involving Mesaana will be identity related.

 

Ahhh well, still good theory.

[mikael]

:D

Seems, unlikely ;) But sure, maybe the scholar finally realized that DO victory would mean ceasing to exist and decided to give up this lifetime in exchange for other chances to love ;)

[bobothebarbarian]

Um I think you went very very strange :D

very strange indeed. you should have posted here Insanely hilarious theories (just for the fun of it)

[Barid Bel Medar]

IT would be kinda cool if something like this turned out to be true.

 

On that subject, Ill have a go at another insanely funny theory regarding the Forsaken.

 

Demandred will turn back to the Light:

 

1. He went over to the shadow because he hates LTT with a passion.

 

2. Rand(LTT) has to die.

 

3. Demandred kills Rand first hand and finds out that his vengance isnt all that it is cracked up to be.

 

4. He realises this, and turns back to the Light.

 

 

;D ;D ;D ;D

[Crael123]

nah shes a forsaken. they all swore their souls to the DO. and also it could be she just was a fail. Debate about it on my Mesaana: Fail or Success thread  ;D

 

but it would be cool if a forsaken was good. i thought Lanfear was good for a while but...was proved wrong. did moridin show up for the cleansing? if not why didnt he get raped as well? lol

[Tsunami]

nah shes a forsaken. they all swore their souls to the DO. and also it could be she just was a fail.

 

But for widely varying reasons. 

 

Asmo swore b/c he loved music.... or so he claimed.

 

I think we've seen that the Forsaken are just as fallible and human as anybody else... why couldn't Mesaana be like Verin?  Messy wanted to be a scholar, what better and more difficult subject than serving the DO hisself?

[farthammer]

Unless she somehow turns out to be Verin, then having her turn out to be some kind of double agent would be kind of underwhelming at this point.  It's already been done and she is just not an interesting person.

[Luckers]

Unless she somehow turns out to be Verin, then having her turn out to be some kind of double agent would be kind of underwhelming at this point.  It's already been done and she is just not an interesting person.

 

I dunno. She could be used to great advantage--an Age of Legends Aes Sedai to rain the appropriate scorn down on modern Aes Sedai. She could reveal thousands of Dreadlords being gathered and trained by the shadow over the last twenty years, or she could have been gathering and training her own secret Aes Sedai.  ;D

[Bob T Dwarf]

This, being fantasy, of course she *could* be good.  But, she isn't.  Just incompetent.

 

Mesaana went willingly, even eagerly to the Shadow.  Strictly for revenge.

 

She enjoys the power.  She enjoys the sadism.  Alviarin's and Sheriam's POVs show us that.

 

Her failures thus far are due to hubris and incompetence, nothing more.

[Luckers]

Mesaana went willingly, even eagerly to the Shadow.  Strictly for revenge.

 

Did she? Or was she ordered to?

 

She enjoys the power.  She enjoys the sadism.  Alviarin's and Sheriam's POVs show us that.

 

Does it? Or does it show a woman who hates darkfriends exacting suffering upon them?

 

Her failures thus far are due to hubris and incompetence, nothing more.

 

Are they? Or are they the brilliant successes of a double agent?

 

 

[yoniy0]

3. She broke the Tower and has at all times attempted to disrupt the Aes Sedai. A 'Let The Lord of Chaos Rule' thing, or could it be a very clever method of keeping Aes Sedai stupidity from causing a disaster?

Word.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

Seems somewhat possible on the surface... but,

 

I think something like this would undermine & weaken what I see as the strength of the DO's Link / Bond / Mark on the Forsaken.  I'm not sure it's possible for them to hide any of their true intentions.  To make things worse, they watch each other and now there's a superfade watching everyone.  If this were the case, she'd be dead or mind trapped in a cour souvra.

[Luckers]

3. She broke the Tower and has at all times attempted to disrupt the Aes Sedai. A 'Let The Lord of Chaos Rule' thing, or could it be a very clever method of keeping Aes Sedai stupidity from causing a disaster?

Word.

 

:D

 

I think something like this would undermine & weaken what I see as the strength of the DO's Link / Bond / Mark on the Forsaken.  I'm not sure it's possible for them to hide any of their true intentions.  To make things worse, they watch each other and now there's a superfade watching everyone.  If this were the case, she'd be dead or mind trapped in a cour souvra.

 

Nothing says the Mark could warn the Dark One of betrayal.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

I think something like this would undermine & weaken what I see as the strength of the DO's Link / Bond / Mark on the Forsaken.  I'm not sure it's possible for them to hide any of their true intentions.  To make things worse, they watch each other and now there's a superfade watching everyone.  If this were the case, she'd be dead or mind trapped in a cour souvra.

 

Nothing says the Mark could warn the Dark One of betrayal.

Not necessarily the "Mark" but the not so well understood bond with the DO.  There've been many Forsaken POV's that express shock at how much the DO actually sees & knows... i.e. Asmodean & his shortcomings, Rhavin's pride, Moghedian's screw ups.  I'm not sure they'd be able to cover up a hidden agenda.  I mean, they've given over their souls.

[Luckers]

Not necessarily the "Mark" but the not so well understood bond with the DO.  There've been many Forsaken POV's that express shock at how much the DO actually sees & knows... i.e. Asmodean & his shortcomings, Rhavin's pride, Moghedian's screw ups.  I'm not sure they'd be able to cover up a hidden agenda.  I mean, they've given over their souls.

 

Also at how much her doesn't know. In fact Demandred juxtaposes the two.

 

There is nothing to suggest that the Dark One knows the inner thoughts of his Chosen.

[Nightstrike]

This lead to lots of discussion about swearing to the Shadow – basically, it’s a very bad idea and you forfeit some very basic protections when you do. Shaidar Haran has special power over those that swear to the Dark One, and the Forsaken in particular. I asked about Alviarin’s special mark, and he said Shaidar Haran has similar power over her. The implication is that there are lots of ramifications for swearing to the Dark One. Brandon mentioned that this makes Verin all the more remarkable.

 

Week 6 Question: How were the gholams made? Were they created or bred like the Trollocs? How exactly are they controlled if they are immune to the One Power?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The gholam---singular and plural are the same---were created, not bred. Supposedly their creation involved making them so that they would be obedient to the Chosen, whoever they might be at any given time. This was an attempt at copying something that had turned up in Myrddraal, which seem incapable of disobeying one of the Chosen, possibly because of the use of the True Power in creation of the Trollocs, the parent stock of the Myrddraal. Even Aginor, who created the Trollocs, and thus indirectly the Myrddraal, was uncertain about the actual cause. (Becoming one of the Forsaken involves receiving a mark from the Dark One in return for your oaths; this mark is invisible and cannot be sensed by another human being, even another of the Forsaken, but it can be [seen] by certain non-human creatures, including Myrddraal and draghkar among others. This may play a part in the Myrddraal's obedience but doesn't explain it completely.) This element in gholam has some flaws, however, as we have seen in a small measure. In any case, if I were you, I wouldn't try giving orders to a gholam unless I were one of the Forsaken.

 

 

TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005

 

Week 2 Question: Is the mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran the same as that the Forsaken received from the Dark One? If so, is she now a Forsaken, or some sort of lesser Chosen?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it.

 

I'd say that he can't read their minds and know all their secrets.

[farthammer]

If the accounts of what she did with children in the AoL are true then I think she's perhaps too monstrous to consider she might be 'good'.  So if she really was good then I think her schools would've had to been something a ruse or cover.  Children seem to be invisible to just about all the other forsaken or even AS for that matter.  I wonder if she might have laid the foundations for some secret society or organization that has endured from that time in the AoL to the present.

[The Fisher King]

I like the theory, Luckers - and Im impressed with your reasoning...but:

 

I think shes just very very weak. And a bit timid ... ESPECIALLY now days after her ''experiences'' with Mr Haran :(

 

 

Fish

[Nightstrike]

Didn't RJ say that they were all evil and that there were no excuses for any of them... Or something like that? I'll see if I can find it somewhere.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

There is nothing to suggest that the Dark One knows the inner thoughts of his Chosen.

 

Yeah.... but, similarly, there isn't much to suggest that the DO doesn't know Forsaken's thoughts.  As noted by another poster...

This lead to lots of discussion about swearing to the Shadow – basically, it’s a very bad idea and you forfeit some very basic protections when you do...there are lots of ramifications for swearing to the Dark One.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

I didn't find what I was looking for. Maybe I misremember something. There are "atrocities" and "Mesaana's children" mentioned in the BWB.

[Luckers]

Yeah.... but, similarly, there isn't much to suggest that the DO doesn't know Forsaken's thoughts.  As noted by another poster...

Quote

This lead to lots of discussion about swearing to the Shadow – basically, it’s a very bad idea and you forfeit some very basic protections when you do...there are lots of ramifications for swearing to the Dark One.

 

And yet Sammael actively disobeys official commands. Lanfear offers to use the Choedan Kal with Rand against the Dark One--and by her thoughts in Winter's Heart, was sincere. Moghedian betrays AoL weaves for months before the Shadow intervenes, and that's as likely because BA reported the new slew of AoL weaves and Moridin went "Say what?"

 

Besides that same quote states "that this makes Verin all the more remarkable." It is comparing these losses of liberty to Verin. Verin mannaged it, and as such, by direct inference, so could a Marked Chosen.

 

I'd say that he can't read their minds and know all their secrets.

 

Did you mean to say he 'can read their minds'? Nothing in your quotes suggest that. The first compares Verin proving he can't under that line of reasoning, and the later two have to do with the powers Chosen gain.

 

Didn't RJ say that they were all evil and that there were no excuses for any of them... Or something like that? I'll see if I can find it somewhere

 

Nope.

 

I didn't find what I was looking for. Maybe I misremember something. There are "atrocities" and "Mesaana's children" mentioned in the BWB.

 

Verin had blood on her hands too.

[Nightstrike]

I'd say that he can't read their minds and know all their secrets.

 

Did you mean to say he 'can read their minds'? Nothing in your quotes suggest that. The first compares Verin proving he can't under that line of reasoning, and the later two have to do with the powers Chosen gain.

No, I do not think he can read their minds. The general actions in the series indicate nothing like it. Neither does the quotes. I'm with you there.

[Luckers]

Oh ok, this is why I shouldn't post at 3am after a night out.