The Death of Shaidar Haran/Moridin theory?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Now I see there has been a lot of theories regarding Shaidar Haran being Moridin in some way, and I set out now to prove its falsity using the quotes RJ and Brandon have supplied us with.

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Joseph-Beth Booksellers, Lexington, KY 10 November 2009 - Stormleader Team reporting

 

Brandon hinted at some severe limitations on Shaidar Haran to affect the physical world. He says that a lot of actions that people assume to be those of Shaidar Haran in the book in one particular scene were physically carried out by Elza. He further indicated that Shadar Haran would have been incapable of physically placing the collar himself.

 

This does not sound like he is Moridin at all. Moridin does not actually have any physical limitations in that regard.

 

Week 23 Question: Was the Fade who visited Jaichim Carridin in the Prologue of The Dragon Reborn an early version of Shaidar Haran? Its response that it likes to keep an eye on 'all who serve me' and its apparent sense of humor are behavior atypical of a Fade.

 

Robert Jordan Answers: I was wondering who would spot that. Shadar Haran Version 0.5! The Dark One doesn't get it spot on the first time every time.

 

This clearly suggests that it was the DO making Shaidar Haran, an independant force from Ishmael (who was alive in his original body at the time)

 

WinespringBrother: Is Shaidar Haran an avatar to the world beyond the Bore?

Jordan: I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not, Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. It's as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creature - it is the Dark One in shadowy form.

WinespringBrother: Is it twenty-four/seven, or just part time.

Jordan: Twenty-four/seven.

 

This i think hits the nail on the head. RJ has stated that

1. SH is more or less a "shadowy form of himself"

2. It is 24/7. Meaning that it is not Moridin switching between the two, it is 24/7. Permanent.

 

To me It seems that the theory of Moridin being SH is sqashed completely, but does anyone, in light of these quotes, still believe that it is possible?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

[Fains nose]

Thank you for doing this, i was getting tired of the lame theories that SH and M are the same. Now some irrefutable evidance that Cyndane is Lanfear and Bela is not the creator?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Thank you for doing this, i was getting tired of the lame theories that SH and M are the same. Now some irrefutable evidance that Cyndane is Lanfear and Bela is not the creator?

 

Haha, yeah, I was thinking of starting a few "Theory Killer" threads for this sort of thing, Ill have a look into Lanfear and Cyndane. Bela is, of course, the DO, not the creator, so i shall look into that aswell.

 

Any more crazy theories I can look into about being busted?

[Shadow Rider]

Would you consider SH as Moridins avatar?

[mossman87]

Surprised this even needed a post.  Guess I didn't know that many people had Dida-like thoughts around here.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Would you consider SH as Moridins avatar?

 

No, not at all, unless your suggesting that Moridin is the DO. Read the quote, RJ says that SH is "THE DO's shadowy projection of himself."

[The Fisher King]

I dont recall ever seeing these quotes before from RJ - Thanks for posting them!!! :)

 

 

Fish

[Ishmayl]

Now some irrefutable evidance that Cyndane is Lanfear

 

Isn't Dida pretty much the only person around here who hasn't realized yet that Cyndane and Lanfear are the same?

[Owayn The Traveller]

Cydane and Lanfear are not the same. They look different and have different names.

[Ishmayl]

Cydane and Lanfear are not the same. They look different and have different names.

 

Hehe.  Touché

[The Fisher King]

Ive always envisioned Moridin, SH and The DO to be a sort of ... Trinity.

 

Fish

[Lambada]

To be fair, has it ever been definitively stated that Cyndane and Lanfear are the same?

 

I didn't pick up on it until I found my way into the online fandom.

 

Yes, it has been heavily implied, but then again so was Taimandred

 

*Realises I've either opened a huge can of worms, or am about to get flamed into the next dimension*

 

*Hits post anyway*

[Owayn The Traveller]

A trinity of tryanny. No wait that's not quite right. A trinity of terrible terrors! That's it.

 

Cyndane is more than likely Lanfear ,but, I don't think its a straight forward transmigration of a soul.

 

Do you know what though its hasn't ever been said in the text that Moridin is Ishy either. We know it is because that particular resurrection happened a lot earlier or we saw the aftermath of it earlier than Cydane and we just have more clues. I'm sure we will get more that well confirm that Cyndane is Lanfear, without a doubt.

[Val Mickey]

Who is it that SH spies on? All I remember is him getting weak and thinking 'Gotta get free from that bas*&^ one day'.

Sammael, Graendal - and is Moridin there? Gotta search now.

 

Do you know what though its hasn't ever been said in the text that Moridin is Ishy either.

 

TGS Spoiler Alert ;)

 

In TGS, doesn't Rand call him Elan?

[Owayn The Traveller]

I cab't recall. If he does thought how many books is it since Moridin showed up till Rand possibly calls him Elan in tGS?

 

[The Fisher King]

In TGS, doesn't Rand call him Elan?

 

Well, Rand isn't necessarily correct about everything...but, I think it is pretty much accepted that Moridin is certainly Ishamael(Elan Morin) reborn...crazy as he is thanks to the TP, lol ;)

 

 

Fish

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 14 November 1998, Louisville, KY - Matthew Hunter reporting

 

"Do you consider the identities of Moridin and Cyndane to be intuitively obvious?"  He said yes, they should be fairly obvious by now, in many more words.

 

 

 

Barnes and Noble chat 11 November 2000

 

 

Jeremy from Long Island NY: For any of the mysteries, i.e. Moridin's identity and Asmodean's death, would you tell us where to look for clues we probably missed? Or just mention some clues that we all probably didn't see?

 

RJ: (laughs) Well, Moridin's identity is pretty much an open secret -- and especially if you read Winter's Heart, I think it's increasingly clear who he is, if there were any doubt. As for the other -- read and find out!

 

like he said, is there any doubt? I dont think you can say it.

 

 

Also, Remember Ishmael's fettish for Rats.

 

[Lambada]

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 14 November 1998, Louisville, KY - Matthew Hunter reporting

 

"Do you consider the identities of Moridin and Cyndane to be intuitively obvious?"  He said yes, they should be fairly obvious by now, in many more words.

 

 

 

Barnes and Noble chat 11 November 2000

 

 

Jeremy from Long Island NY: For any of the mysteries, i.e. Moridin's identity and Asmodean's death, would you tell us where to look for clues we probably missed? Or just mention some clues that we all probably didn't see?

 

RJ: (laughs) Well, Moridin's identity is pretty much an open secret -- and especially if you read Winter's Heart, I think it's increasingly clear who he is, if there were any doubt. As for the other -- read and find out!

 

like he said, is there any doubt? I dont think you can say it.

 

 

Also, Remember Ishmael's fettish for Rats.

 

 

*plays Devils Advocate*

Yes well... everyone thought all the clues point to Taim being Demandred :P

[Barid Bel Medar]

Im going to have to say they didnt. People only made that conecction to fit their own theories (although I did first think Taim was Demandred)

 

Remember, posibly the most simple reasons why it was not true.

 

Taim always had a "half-smile"

 

Demandred wore a perpetual scowl. He never smiled.

 

Demandred didnt recognize the Ashaman.

 

 

[Duskfire]

*plays Devils Advocate*

Yes well... everyone thought all the clues point to Taim being Demandred

 

The difference is though that all the evidence for Taim being Demandred was circumstanial and none significant. Mostly because he has a similiar personality to Demandred and also because we got Demandreds POV for the first time in LoC, so he was still fresh in our minds.

 

But then you look at Moridin/Ishamael. Rand refers to him as Elan. He talks about the cycle of ages and whatnot like Ishamaels philosophy was. Is the only one who can use the TP (with the exception of SH.) Refers to facts in the world as knowing about them for a long long time (i.e the Warder bond, the Black Ajah, etc etc.) And he is the only Forsaken thats fits - all the rest who are able to come back have been accounted for.

 

So yeah, completely different argument really.

[Barid Bel Medar]

*plays Devils Advocate*

Yes well... everyone thought all the clues point to Taim being Demandred

 

The difference is though that all the evidence for Taim being Demandred was circumstanial and none significant. Mostly because he has a similiar personality to Demandred and also because we got Demandreds POV for the first time in LoC, so he was still fresh in our minds.

 

But then you look at Moridin/Ishamael. Rand refers to him as Elan. He talks about the cycle of ages and whatnot like Ishamaels philosophy was. Is the only one who can use the TP (with the exception of SH.) Refers to facts in the world as knowing about them for a long long time (i.e the Warder bond, the Black Ajah, etc etc.) And he is the only Forsaken thats fits - all the rest who are able to come back have been accounted for.

 

So yeah, completely different argument really.

 

Yes, I will take it from a different angle aswell. Apart from my above post and Duskfire's resaoning, remember that this is based on RJ's quotes.

 

RJ said it should be intuitively obvious who Moridin is.

 

RJ DIDNT say the same for Taim. IN fact he was suprised (IIRC) that pepole made the connection (which was false)

 

So, yeah, completly different type of argument

[somathus]

Surprised this even needed a post.  Guess I didn't know that many people had Dida-like thoughts around here.

That is what I thought.  Some people actually think Moridin and SH are the same individual??

[Vermillion]

Its clear that Lanfear has been reborn or changed.  The comments I think in Winters Heart make it clear.  She was talking about Rand betraying her with another woman to use the CK and about the seachan chick being stronger than her Finns visit.  Who else could she be?