Rands transformation

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Is anyone else intrigued that Rand is adopting more and more characterizations of Elan Morin Tedronai/Ishamael/Moridin. I mean he is:

 

1) Started adopting the colors red and black for his clothes.

2) Is starting to prefer the True Power over the One Power. As shown by his "dark halo" that more than one character mentioned when in his presence.

3) His attitude took a more radical change than in nearly any of the books. He is becoming,...well for the lack of a better word,...more evil. He seems a lot more resolute and is willing to follow an "Ends justify the means" approach. Such as him having absolutely no visible qualms about murdering hundreds of innocents simply for "the chance" that it "might" have killed Graendal.

4) I probably missed one or two other things, feel free to mention them.

 

 

What do you believe this entails? Do the champion of the shadow and the champion of light need to fuse into one figure in order to win? It is certainly interesting, since Elan Morin Tedronai is like no other Forsaken, being the only one to join out of altruistic reasons. He actually believed that releasing the Dark One was necessary to free and liberate humanity from the jail that was the pattern. A necessary evil to destroy a greater evil (in his mind). He was certainly unlike any of the other Forsaken who all joined out of lust for power, greed or other selfish reasons. Which makes me think he is certainly capable of rehabilitation, since his whole purpose seems less in serving the Dark One for personal gain than it is to achieve an end. See the destruction of the Pattern. I could potentially see the new Mori/Rand coming to a compromise; Destroy the Dark One and the Pattern. Thereby destroying the evil counterpart of the Creator, but at the same time removing the shackles of slavery from humanity. Allowing humanity to finally advance and pursue its destiny instead of being trapped in an infinite repetitive loop.

[nolirion]

Read the book until it's end .

But to answer Rand only used the "true power "once , to free itself from the male a'dam .

He like Black and red way before is connection with Moridin , (the servant used black color).

The "Dark halo" is more a effect of is Ta'veren being manipulated by Moridin ( it is obvious is last changed was planed by Isha who wanted him to destroy the pattern or join him)

 

I think it is much more similar to what happen with Aridhol a kind of madness but it as more to do with the tension  he much face , or Rand have face so much because of fool people (Aes sedai , Dark Friend , simple fool , Fain , he nearly killed two people he loved )

 

[Demiandre]

He actually believed that releasing the Dark One was necessary to free and liberate humanity from the jail that was the pattern. A necessary evil to destroy a greater evil (in his mind). He was certainly unlike any of the other Forsaken who all joined out of lust for power, greed or other selfish reasons. Which makes me think he is certainly capable of rehabilitation, since his whole purpose seems less in serving the Dark One for personal gain than it is to achieve an end.

 

No Ishamael decided to join the DO because in the end, whether he joined or fighted him, the Light would lose. He is a coward, in a way. He is so sure of the DO victory, one age or another, that he prefered to help him makes everything end than fight. Much easier... If the DO wins, there is NO Pattern. So humanity will be freed of everything. Even Life... So no altruistics reason.

[lews reborn]

No Ishamael decided to join the DO because in the end, whether he joined or fighted him, the Light would lose. He is a coward, in a way. He is so sure of the DO victory, one age or another, that he prefered to help him makes everything end than fight. Much easier... If the DO wins, there is NO Pattern. So humanity will be freed of everything. Even Life... So no altruistics reason.

 

i disagree with calling him a coward. he was a philosopher that looking at the continuous war between the DO and the Creator is never ending. If the DO is killed then technically the age lace will be unraveled without the balance of the DO. more likely he will be properly resealed again and a new age will begin and memories of the DO will be forgotten until a new bore is opened.

[Durinax]

Ishy isnt a coward, he believes in what he is fighting for, the destruction of eternal turning. He is the only forsaken who knows what the DO's goal is and it is hte same goal as Ishy so why not work together?

[sumquy]

Not a coward, no. But definitely not altruistic either. He is more amoral than immoral. His nihilistic philosophy led him to turn to the dark side for the same reasons that Rand almost turned in TGS. What is the point? The same problems, the same petty squabbles, the same endless suffering repeated ad infinitum. The only real difference between them is Rand found a reason to keep fighting for the light while Ishy did not.

[AuldGoldBeard]

Terrific username, Rembrandt.  Only Handsome B. Wonderful could have topped it.

[Loophole]

Agreed, Ishamael isn't a coward. I think it takes courage follow your beliefs toward the destruction of yourself. I think if his view could be changed he might change sides :D

[Duskfire]

He is a coward. He didn't see the point in fighting against the DO, in battling him time and time again, Age after Age. Meanwhile Rand, when confronted with the same facts, on the end of the line decided that things were worth fighting for. Rand essentially condemned himself to an eternity of battling the DO. Thats courage. What Ishamael did was short of giving up to the school bully, but on a more destructive scale.

[Demiandre]

He is a coward. He didn't see the point in fighting against the DO, in battling him time and time again, Age after Age. Meanwhile Rand, when confronted with the same facts, on the end of the line decided that things were worth fighting for. Rand essentially condemned himself to an eternity of battling the DO. Thats courage. What Ishamael did was short of giving up to the school bully, but on a more destructive scale.

 

Thanks Dusk, I was beginning to think I was the only one thinking he was, seeing at the answers ;D

 

He probably had a role to play in the eternal struggle against the DO in the AoL but sidestepped his duties because of his pessimistic nature. Logic drove him on the dark side.

 

Remember the saying : duty is heavier than a.mountain, death lighter than a feather. He decided to choose death, and in my book, I took it to mean he is a coward. But a courageous one... Because he fight for the death of everything. He is tired of living and don't see the point of it, in contrary to Rand, who found an answer on Dragonmount.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Terrific username, Rembrandt.  Only Handsome B. Wonderful could have topped it.

 

 

Having to choose with the most narcissistic username and the most smartass username, I sadly chose the latter.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

He actually believed that releasing the Dark One was necessary to free and liberate humanity from the jail that was the pattern. A necessary evil to destroy a greater evil (in his mind). He was certainly unlike any of the other Forsaken who all joined out of lust for power, greed or other selfish reasons. Which makes me think he is certainly capable of rehabilitation, since his whole purpose seems less in serving the Dark One for personal gain than it is to achieve an end.

 

No Ishamael decided to join the DO because in the end, whether he joined or fighted him, the Light would lose. He is a coward, in a way. He is so sure of the DO victory, one age or another, that he prefered to help him makes everything end than fight. Much easier... If the DO wins, there is NO Pattern. So humanity will be freed of everything. Even Life... So no altruistics reason.

 

I fail to see how recognizing one side is destined to victory makes him a coward? Especially since due to being a highly intelligent theologian and nihilist his personal misgivings put him at odds with the concept of the Pattern. It would make perfect sense he would align himself with the only force he saw capable of shredding the pattern.

[Demiandre]

Did you played final fantasy X? It is the same concludion we can draw. Ishamael has been thinking a lot about the fight between the DO and the Light. As the wheel turns, the DO is always fred at some point, and resealed. And fred. Then resealed again. He think the Shadow will win only because of one think : victory by default. Because the DO has an eternity to try to get free. Logically, it would win eventually. So Ishy fecided there was no way for the Light to win. He surrendered to the DO's will. He didn't try to fight, to struggle, to find a way out. He already tought all was lost.

 

But Lan says differently un New Spring. You surrender when you're dead. Not before. It's not because all seems lost that you stop the fight.

 

So to come back to FFX, Yuna, as an Invoker, shall summon the ultimate eon to defeat Sin, an entity that reappears no matter how many times he has been defeated, with 10 years inbetween called "the Felicity".  Such fight between the Invoker and Sin always means the death of the Invoker. But Invoker always challenge Sin, even though they know they will die in the end. They sacrifice for the greater good. As Sin always reappears, you should consider that the Light, in this case, is losing. They are only delaying the inevitable. However, they fight. Because they have to.

They decided to break the rule and find a way to get rid of Sin (well, it is a bit more complex than that).

 

Ishamael saw only an half-empty glass, but Rand is seeing an half-full glass. There are the ones who let themselves be driven by facts, and those who try to find a way out. I myself am one drven by facts.

 

And to finish, I don't.mean a coward in the way he is frightened by everything, won't dare fight Rand in single battle, and flee before a Myyrdraal's gaze, but coward in the way he let himself be driven by his logic that the DO will win eventually. It's either a draw, or a defeat for the Light. Bashere told Rand if you have two target, strike at a third to surprise everybody. He will, because he want to try to kill the DO. What Ishamael don't even consider possible (rightly or not). Ishy is trapped in his way of seeing things, never putting himself in question. As Rand did in VoG.

 

So coward was not the word. It would be defeatist(??).

[Vermillion]

See me being the fool that I am would think that even though the pattern never ends that its not like I'd have to remember suffering the same thing over and over.  You die and are reborn as someone else.  Fresh and renewed view of things.

 

To me it would give me more reason to fight because I'd have less to lose.  Just my idenity but my soul will be reborn.  Despite what religions say nobody is certain what happens at death.  Not a lot of folks line up to die for someone even if they believe there is heaven. The outside chance of nothingness makes me want to preserve this life as much as possible lol.

 

Ishy, though I dont know if LTT did or knew who he was, wasn't destined to have to save the day like Rand does.  The pressure of being the focal point and savior of the universe is hard.  Without the taint his sanity should have been strained with the weight of the world.  He would fight the DO at least two ages a cycle.  I can see why he would want to give up since his souls memories merge as a hero of the horn and taint induced not to mention fabled. 

 

Ishy is just some dude who thought too deeply and can't see the bigger picture that his rebirth is his salvation and he doesn't have to worry about helping the shadow if winning will happen eventually.  Won't it happen with or without him.  He will be reborn without the problems that plague him "Why won't these repeated cycle and ages end that I don't remember." Why care?

[kamros]

He isnt a coward, he just has different views of the world. If a person was converted back to the light, would he be a coward because he didnt see the point in fighting for the DO anymore? nope. Also, if you want one thing to happen, and your fighting on the side to prevent that one thing from happening...well you can kinda see the stupidity of thatn

[Vermillion]

He isnt a coward, he just has different views of the world. If a person was converted back to the light, would he be a coward because he didnt see the point in fighting for the DO anymore? nope. Also, if you want one thing to happen, and your fighting on the side to prevent that one thing from happening...well you can kinda see the stupidity of thatn

 

But why?  It seems very short sighted view of a long sighted view. He is not reliving things over and over his soul is.  His personality is just his growth of his current rebirth.  He doesn't have to deal with the weight each rebirth because he's not going to be the same person each time.  That's unless the DO gives him memory of past lives each time to form him into a champion of dark type.

[Bridge]

Not a coward, no. But definitely not altruistic either. He is more amoral than immoral. His nihilistic philosophy led him to turn to the dark side for the same reasons that Rand almost turned in TGS. What is the point? The same problems, the same petty squabbles, the same endless suffering repeated ad infinitum. The only real difference between them is Rand found a reason to keep fighting for the light while Ishy did not.

I was somehow undecided! Rand had no nihilistic pho, but a current way to do the things that are to do because he had no choice about that! He reckon that   about DR, but he had nothing to do about! He is trapped into this! None of us would had the will and force to do wherever he's doing! Just kill them all!  

[Val Mickey]

Intelligent nihilist? That's precious!

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Did you played final fantasy X? It is the same concludion we can draw. Ishamael has been thinking a lot about the fight between the DO and the Light. As the wheel turns, the DO is always fred at some point, and resealed. And fred. Then resealed again. He think the Shadow will win only because of one think : victory by default. Because the DO has an eternity to try to get free. Logically, it would win eventually. So Ishy fecided there was no way for the Light to win. He surrendered to the DO's will. He didn't try to fight, to struggle, to find a way out. He already tought all was lost.

 

But Lan says differently un New Spring. You surrender when you're dead. Not before. It's not because all seems lost that you stop the fight.

 

So to come back to FFX, Yuna, as an Invoker, shall summon the ultimate eon to defeat Sin, an entity that reappears no matter how many times he has been defeated, with 10 years inbetween called "the Felicity".  Such fight between the Invoker and Sin always means the death of the Invoker. But Invoker always challenge Sin, even though they know they will die in the end. They sacrifice for the greater good. As Sin always reappears, you should consider that the Light, in this case, is losing. They are only delaying the inevitable. However, they fight. Because they have to.

They decided to break the rule and find a way to get rid of Sin (well, it is a bit more complex than that).

 

Ishamael saw only an half-empty glass, but Rand is seeing an half-full glass. There are the ones who let themselves be driven by facts, and those who try to find a way out. I myself am one drven by facts.

 

And to finish, I don't.mean a coward in the way he is frightened by everything, won't dare fight Rand in single battle, and flee before a Myyrdraal's gaze, but coward in the way he let himself be driven by his logic that the DO will win eventually. It's either a draw, or a defeat for the Light. Bashere told Rand if you have two target, strike at a third to surprise everybody. He will, because he want to try to kill the DO. What Ishamael don't even consider possible (rightly or not). Ishy is trapped in his way of seeing things, never putting himself in question. As Rand did in VoG.

 

So coward was not the word. It would be defeatist(??).

 

I preferred FF8.

 

But back on topic. He considered the victory of the DO not only inevitable but also something that should be brought about to destroy the pattern. He also certainly did not act in a coward, since once he had decided for a side he went behind it in full. After all the Lews persona in Rands head goes on to explain how "Hope truly did seem to die that day" when Ishamael went over to the shadow. I mean it takes quite a bit to be brandmarked "The Betrayer of Hope."

 

But his personal theological and philosphical views on the matter is why his other nickname was "Soul of the Shadow." He managed to justify the need to destroy the Wheel at all costs, even if it meant allying with the DO, to more than enough people.

[Duskfire]

But back on topic. He considered the victory of the DO not only inevitable but also something that should be brought about to destroy the pattern. He also certainly did not act in a coward, since once he had decided for a side he went behind it in full. After all the Lews persona in Rands head goes on to explain how "Hope truly did seem to die that day" when Ishamael went over to the shadow. I mean it takes quite a bit to be brandmarked "The Betrayer of Hope."

 

But his personal theological and philosphical views on the matter is why his other nickname was "Soul of the Shadow." He managed to justify the need to destroy the Wheel at all costs, even if it meant allying with the DO, to more than enough people.

 

But you can be philosophical and still be a coward. Its not as if the two are opposing forces or anything. He did justify why he joined the DO, and thats basically: its inevitable that the DO will win. To me, thats cowardly. And I am not talking about the standard "hide in the corner" sort of cowardice that alot of people are probably thbinking, but more of a deep-rooted fear that won't effect him in everyday life but when he thinks of the enormity of the situation then it hits him.

 

Not wanting to fight the DO, not wanting to struggle against him age after age is cowardly. Its conviction and strength that has you standing up in front of the DO and telling him to get lost, not bowing in front of him because your doomed no matter what. Especially since he wouldnt remember all the previous struggles.

 

I am not saying this is a huge character flaw or anything. Or rather, it is a character flaw, but it doesn't take away from Ishamael/Moridin being awesome. Demandred joined for much worst reasons, but he still awesome too. In the end, villains are generally villains for petty stupid things and Ishamaels is quite cool in a sort of way. But I still think he is a coward for it :P

 

[farthammer]

I think excusing Ishamael's courage or lack of it because he appears to have taken his particular position based on his beliefs does not go far enough.  I think he also chose this path because he was really afraid of the possibility of being on the receiving end of the DO's power.  He says the DO has not been free to destroy the pattern at any point in history, that it only takes one time to win.  Being a philosopher he'd then consider the probability of victory infinitely close to zero.  You could rationalize your cowardice with this if you don't think it matters which side you choose.

[Demiandre]

I think excusing Ishamael's courage or lack of it because he appears to have taken his particular position based on his beliefs does not go far enough.  I think he also chose this path because he was really afraid of the possibility of being on the receiving end of the DO's power.  He says the DO has not been free to destroy the pattern at any point in history, that it only takes one time to win.  Being a philosopher he'd then consider the probability of victory infinitely close to zero.  You could rationalize your cowardice with this if you don't think it matters which side you choose.

 

I think that the probability are higher than "infinitely close to zero". It is a long scale battle. Beginning 3000 year before. Because the Pattern needed a lot of thing in place for 'this' fight.

 

If the good person had been killed, everyrhing would have been lost. On of the Aiel Rand see through in Rhuidean, for example, or Moiraine's mother. Or Mat.

 

If any of those person had died too early, it could have meant a victory of the DO.

 

I too prefer ff8, but it was easier to compare with the tenth... oh yes I found a comparison :

 

So Linoa hired Squall to help her in the resistance. Squall know they are unprepared and childish. Shall he abandon his mission because it is pointless and sucessless? No, he mafe xhat he had to do to finish the mission, even going as far as trying to kill his former nurse, going in space, compressed-time travelling, and killing a not yet appeared sorceress. THAT, is duty fulfulled. And at the same time, he doubt about love, responsibility, duty, honor and the rest.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I think excusing Ishamael's courage or lack of it because he appears to have taken his particular position based on his beliefs does not go far enough.  I think he also chose this path because he was really afraid of the possibility of being on the receiving end of the DO's power.  He says the DO has not been free to destroy the pattern at any point in history, that it only takes one time to win.  Being a philosopher he'd then consider the probability of victory infinitely close to zero.  You could rationalize your cowardice with this if you don't think it matters which side you choose.

 

How exactly is it cowardice though? Does he have some kind of requirement to fight for the pattern? According to Ishamael the pattern is the greatest evil of all. A construct which enslaves humanity and prevents any form of linear progress.

 

Wouldn't it be the opposite of cowardice? He took the first step by being the first person to acknowledge and swear loyalty to the DO and his cause to destroy the pattern. I can imagine this would require quite a bit of bravery and balls.

[farthammer]

Don't know how I could say it more clearly, but if fear of something enters into your decision making process then that is a form of cowardice.

 

I think that the probability are higher than "infinitely close to zero". It is a long scale battle. Beginning 3000 year before. Because the Pattern needed a lot of thing in place for 'this' fight.

 

I'm assuming Ishamael made the conclusions he says he did before going over to the shadow, otherwise he would have gone for no reason.  Those were basically the odds of him winning, as far as he would be able to tell.

[Luckers]

Don't know how I could say it more clearly, but if fear of something enters into your decision making process then that is a form of cowardice.

 

Not really. Cowardice is giving in to fear when it would be better to risk the danger you are afraid of. Listening to your fear in making a decision is common sense--fear makes you alert and warns you to danger. Obeying that warning should it be correct is simple wisdom.