Who Would YOU Want Commanding YOUR Army in One ''Last Battle'' ?!!

[Duskfire]

i have stated already which you very very conveniently ignored. The great captains serve the light, if Mat ever fights against them, he will LOSE his luck IMMEDIATELY.

 

so stop bringing this nonsense about luck, because it is only with the pattern's permission that he is winning anything. if he decides to be a hooligen, he always get caught.

 

I did answer it before. I believe his extreme luck has less to do with his ta`vereness but more to do with the Shadar Logoth dagger. Fain is also described as having the dark ones own luck. Therefore it shouldnt make a difference as to whether or not the Pattern decided to take his ta`vereness from him. Besides, what if said great captain was a darkfriend himself.

[The Fisher King]

I dont think any of that would matter actually because RJ himself stated that there WERE Tav'eren among The Shadow/Darkfriends.

 

 

Fish

[farthammer]

why hasn't anyone in randland started working on making taveren terangreal

[a_lily_in_winter]

1 I agree with almost everything ***lily in winter*** said EXCEPT for one thing. I would NOT have Elayne Trakand on ANY list of ''Top Political Leaders'' ... In fact, it makes me scared. I understand she is very young...but that little blonde girl is a Walking Disaster, LOL!!! ... If not for The Amazing and Important Dyelin (who I think is kinda Hot for some weird reason I can't quite put my finger on), Andor would be rubble and ashes.

 

Fish

 

I make no secret that Elayne is my favorite character, but that wasn't why I put her on that list.  (And she was only one of the possibilities even then. I would give a 1 in 9 chance of her ending up as the political leader of the N and E.)  My thought process goes something like this:

 

First of all this assumes that what the Finns say about the North must be one with the East means that they must be unified under one political leader.  Other possibilities are that they form a council similar to what happen in the Aiel war.  (The ending to that was so bad that I don't see that happening, though.)

 

I also assume that Rand will be to busy and/or will be the leader that unifies the N/E with the S/W.  This may or may not be true; RJ likes surprising us. Mat or more likely Perrin since he has the most political skills could end up doing it.  (Perrin has many characteristics of the chief god in many mythological systems and it is about time that he or Mat actually did something to hurt the DO.)  I just don't see how that would work out unless Rand united them somehow and appointed Perrin.  That could easily happen, but my gut tells me that the N/E will unite without Rand's intervention, because that is what most people least expect.  Further from a personal point of view assuming I had the power to put people anywhere I want I wouldn't choose Mat or Perrin for the role of political leader.  Mat needs to be on the field and Perrin while good politically would cause political problems with Andor.  In retrospect maybe Perrin should be placed on that list as well, though.

 

With that assumption I looked at all the groups in the N and the E.  Borderlands, WT, Aiel, Caemlyn, and Cairhien, Far Madding, and the BT.  From there it was simply a matter of deducing who would accept who as a political leader.  Egwene would seem to have the most support from all of those groups, except for Far Madding and the BT but some would think her too powerful if she had that position as well.  One of the Borderlanders would have the experience and some powerful allies.  Elayne would be respected enough I think by the borderlanders and the tower.  The BT may even accept her.  Of all the possibilities for political leader I don't know who is best so I copped out and listed them all.

 

I disagree with your assessment about Elayne and Dyelin.  Dyelin disagreed with Elayne hiring mercenaries, for instance which were the only thing that kept Arymilla from taking Caemlyn.  Another example is that Dyelin did not get rid of the foreign occupiers when she was in charge.  Dyelin would have been able to be queen without fighting of course, but I don't think she has enough political initiative to be a great queen.  A good queen yes and in any other time perhaps a great queen, but not during the last days.  Plus Elayne is focused like an arrow for TG. We see that in her PoV in KoD.

[The Fisher King]

Faerthammer...the Tav'eren have had lots of Ter'an'greal ... 2 that come immediately to mind are:

 

1 Cauthon's Medallion

 

2 Rand's 'Little Fat Man'

 

 

- Fish

[Hadilmir]

He means Ter'angreal that mimic the effects of Ta'veren. The Five Dice had the chance part down, but that seems to have been forgotten.

[The Fisher King]

Oh. Oh yeah. Where ARE those dice???

 

 

- Fish

[Hadilmir]

Oh. Oh yeah. Where ARE those dice???

 

 

- Fish

Imagine how devastating that could be on the battlefield. Tie a weave of spirit to it, hand it to a blind man with a spear, toss him through a gateway into a mass of trollocs, and pop some popcorn. Was it 500 heads in a row or 1000? :D

[Shimmer]

Hands down it would be Mat! The other Great Captains might have tactical/military skills but Mat has that AND incredible luck. Any day, Mat would override any of the other Great Captains.  ;D

[Duskfire]

I dont think any of that would matter actually because RJ himself stated that there WERE Tav'eren among The Shadow/Darkfriends.

 

 

Fish

 

No, RJ said its possible for ta`veren to be a darkfriend, but its unlikely. He never said it has happened. In fact he followed it with "I can’t really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta’veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern."

[Lady Beslan]

I don't think it would be a mistake to think that Mat has more than a 50/50 chance against any of the great captains. Mat has the advantages of his luck, his ta'veren influence, and, as you mentioned, his dead memories. We have proof of him using those memories to his advantage against living opponents who were acting 'properly' in Book 5 and he uses the military knowledge that came with them more than the actual memories of the battles, which I would say, puts him on the same level as the 5 Great Generals. With his luck, ta'veren influence, his good leadership skills and the new weaponry which he is funding for his army, and not to mention his links to high status - The Dragon Reborn, the Empress of the Seanchan, the Queen of Andor and the Amyrlin Seat - which place him in quite a nice place politically (although, there are conflictions there, but one would assume they'd be cleared up, even if only temporarily, for Tarmon Gai'don) it is not a mistake to argue that he would have more of an, at least, 75% chance of success against any of the Great Captains.

 

i have stated already which you very very conveniently ignored. The great captains serve the light, if Mat ever fights against them, he will LOSE his luck IMMEDIATELY.

 

so stop bringing this nonsense about luck, because it is only with the pattern's permission that he is winning anything. if he decides to be a hooligen, he always get caught.

 

First of all, sorry I had forgotten when I wrote that that you had already said that about the luck. I didn't mean to ignore anything, and I apologise for that.

 

Secondly, I agree that it is only with the Pattern's permission that he is winning the battles, but that's the same for everyone in Randland, isn't it? All the Generals are winning because the Pattern gives them permission to do so, just as the Pattern gave them permission to learn the techniques to win those battles in the first place. So, as I see it anyway, Mat is not a special case in this circumstance.

 

Thirdly, I don't understand why Mat would be fighting any of the Great Captains if they all serve the light, but I'm guessing you mean hypothetically? If that were the case, yes, maybe Mat would only have 50/50 chance of winning against them, because, yes, he would lose his ta'veren abilities, but I don't think he would lose all of his luck - but that might just be me as I don't necessarily link his luck with his ta'veren-ness, although I don't really know where it might've come from...  :-\

 

Anyway, sorry again for the ignorance - I didn't mean it.  :)

[Tollieman]

Did I miss something (I seem to be doing that a lot lately)? Why are people claiming that Mat would lose his luck if he fought a Great Captain (provided he stands for the Light), as if it were fact?

 

I don't have access to recordings, or RJ/BA quotes etc, so is there something that states that? Because if not, sounds like a MASSIVE wild leap?

 

Besides which, I always thought that he got the luck from the dagger - So by the reasoning above, he should actually have lost his luck the moment he fought the Dark One's forces!

And pls don't tell me The Light is happy with what went down in Aridhol!

[Lady Beslan]

Did I miss something (I seem to be doing that a lot lately)? Why are people claiming that Mat would lose his luck if he fought a Great Captain (provided he stands for the Light), as if it were fact?

 

I don't have access to recordings, or RJ/BA quotes etc, so is there something that states that? Because if not, sounds like a MASSIVE wild leap?

 

Besides which, I always thought that he got the luck from the dagger - So by the reasoning above, he should actually have lost his luck the moment he fought the Dark One's forces!

And pls don't tell me The Light is happy with what went down in Aridhol!

 

The luck thing is because people associate his luck with him being a ta'veren, and I think the general idea is that if Mat was to fight against the light (Great Captains) the Pattern would stop him being a ta'veren and, therefore, his luck would disappear.

 

I suppose that it depends on where you think the luck comes from - if you go by your idea (it came from the dagger) I don't think that anybody would be saying his luck would disappear. It's just an argument of opinion, I suppose.

[Tollieman]

I still think that even if the luck were to come from Ta'veren, it's still a leap to say it would desert him if he fought against 'The Light'. It may happen, but easily as much might not - from what I've seen there's zero to substantiate such a claim.

 

It's happened before that 2 forces that followed the light battled. Aiel and the West in the Aiel war for example. In that event, defending his home / people / soldiers his Ta'veren is a gonner?

 

Here's a question; if Rand went over to the Dark, would he lose his Ta'veren? He's fought the Seanchan who walk in the light...

 

Or are we going to now stipulate 'provided the opposing lightforce did not, 1) invade, use the one power as a weapon, have grolm/torm, dance to rave'.... your Ta'veren(ness) would be retracted and all benefits gained will be lost as well.

 

Hawkwing enemies couldn't possibly have ALL been darkfriends...

 

;)

[Lady Beslan]

I didn't actually think of it like that. :)

 

Either way, I don't think there's any way to find out a solid answer because I doubt any of the ta'veren will turn to the Darkside.  ;)

[the one true dragon]

It's sad but I'm a high school drop out, so if I was smarter I would say Mat but since I'm not as smart as some I would have to say Perrin. Not that I think he is dumb but simple and would be able to talk in away that any one could understand

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Taim.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Thor does not speculate, his word is law.

 

But really, it is only his opinion, he just thinks its everyones, so doesnt bother to say that it is only an opinion.

 

on the matter of Taveren, my own opinion is that it wouldnt be affected or canceled just because the Taveren doesnt fight for the Light.

 

Remember, the Pattern is neither good nor evil, it simply...is.

 

Taveren are correcting measures (along those lines, to difficult to really explain) that the pattern spins out. That doesnt mean the pattern can undo their Taverenness (RJ said in an interview there could be Shadow Taveren, but the Pattern wouldnt spin them out.) Even though the pattern wouldnt spin them out, it doesnt mean they cant be turned.

 

The pattern cannot, at least in my opinion gathered from the evidence we have, or is not a living thing, that can take a direct hand, giving and negating power as it sees fit. If it could do as Thor suggests, and negate Mat's Taveren because he fought for Shadow, then by that same rule, the Pattern would take away all of the Forsaken's ability to channel, the Shadow's forces ability to do anything really.

 

However, I do not think that is the case. How i see it is that the pattern spins out Taveren, but once they are spun out, it cannot simply take it back because it doesnt like it. More probable would be that it would spin out another Taveren to counter the one already AWOL.

[Duskfire]

Well people aren't born ta`veren, so it can at least be given. I don't think it would be a stretch to say it can be taken. After all, ta`veren are its self-correcting mechanism, thrown out to influence people in reaching its grand design. If said ta`veren turned and through his actions was turning people away from the intended design, then I can't see why the ta`veren couldn't be taken away from the character. It would have nothing to do with that person turning good or evil; it would simply be against what the Pattern is trying to achieve.

[Barid Bel Medar]

You may be right, but really we cant know. There is no evidence to suggest this.

 

It would be logical, but not always the case.

 

Its much easier to give someone an ability than take it away.

 

But, neither side can be proven correct, so really I dont think we can argue the point one way or the other.

 

The reasoning you have is good, and I do not necessarily hold to what I post, just posting an opposing view (how it COULD be seen as)

 

the point of it was, I dislike (a habit) when people post opinions as fact, to the casual reader it may be taken as fact, when it is only someones opinion. I believe it is supreme arrogance to post as if your opinion was Law.

[Duskfire]

You may be right, but really we cant know. There is no evidence to suggest this.

 

It would be logical, but not always the case.

 

Its much easier to give someone an ability than take it away.

 

But, neither side can be proven correct, so really I dont think we can argue the point one way or the other.

 

The reasoning you have is good, and I do not necessarily hold to what I post, just posting an opposing view (how it COULD be seen as)

 

the point of it was, I dislike (a habit) when people post opinions as fact, to the casual reader it may be taken as fact, when it is only someones opinion. I believe it is supreme arrogance to post as if your opinion was Law.

 

Oh very true, it is pure speculation and you could be right for all I know. I suppose the only way we'll find out is if after TG one of the ta`veren stops being one. Although, it would be amusing to see Mats reaction if he finds out he is going to be the Patterns guinea pig his entire life :P

[Barid Bel Medar]

haha, yeah, the irony of him refusing his whole life to be a pawn, yet he cannot help it  :D

 

I love his reaction to being Taveren, never thinks of the good stuff that happens, only the bad (which mostly ends up with Mat Cauthon being dead) haha