A Hero for Our Times

[Barid Bel Medar]

Its not the fact that you stated your opinion, it was the fact that you said

 

"He isnt dead"

 

Not, in my opinion, he isnt dead.

 

Theres a difference.

 

You are allowed to say whatever you like, but Val Mickey was right in saying what he did.

 

Jesus cannot be said to be still alive, it is only a belief, one that should not really be a debate here, it is not a question to be answered.

[Fains nose]

Can someone give me a true definition of what actualy constitutes a "hero". In our world sports people, actors and singers are refered to and genuinely held in some peoples hearts as heros. What is a hero?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Can someone give me a true definition of what actualy constitutes a "hero". In our world sports people, actors and singers are refered to and genuinely held in some peoples hearts as heros. What is a hero?

 

I agree, if we are going to have a topic like this, set out the criteria before letting peopel get into arguments about what a hero is.

[maradon]

O.K. a hero from our times (post 999 A.D) that could be a member of the Heroes of the Horn. Criteria;

 

1. They have to have changed the world in an unbelievable way so that other important events developed from it, (I know this is a bad example as people have said Hitler shouldnt be a HotH but) Hitler gaining power in Germany to start WW2 which subsequently leads to the space race.

 

2. They do not have to be in harms way or controlling armies in the field to be a HotH as this is not the only way of showing bravery. A possible example of this could be Florence Nightingale.

 

3. They need to be doing their actions for a reason other than to make themselves famous and gain glory, i.e. their inherent nature means that they are courageous and brilliant whilst not deliberately trying to act that way to be noticed.

 

4. Their lasting impression needs to be good (I believe this was one of the key points for why Hitler would not be a HotH). If we look at Artur Hawkwing, for instance, he hated AS and waged war against them and the other nations of the world (at different times) probably killing millions yet he legacy is revered and liked/loved despite this.

 

I can't think of any other ones but I believe that these make a good starting list of criteria for a potential HotH to have to meet. (Do we include that they need to be dead? I'm thinking mainly of Mandela here)

[Durinax]

O.K. a hero from our times (post 999 A.D) that could be a member of the Heroes of the Horn. Criteria;

 

1. They have to have changed the world in an unbelievable way so that other important events developed from it, (I know this is a bad example as people have said Hitler shouldnt be a HotH but) Hitler gaining power in Germany to start WW2 which subsequently leads to the space race.

 

2. They do not have to be in harms way or controlling armies in the field to be a HotH as this is not the only way of showing bravery. A possible example of this could be Florence Nightingale.

 

3. They need to be doing their actions for a reason other than to make themselves famous and gain glory, i.e. their inherent nature means that they are courageous and brilliant whilst not deliberately trying to act that way to be noticed.

 

4. Their lasting impression needs to be good (I believe this was one of the key points for why Hitler would not be a HotH). If we look at Artur Hawkwing, for instance, he hated AS and waged war against them and the other nations of the world (at different times) probably killing millions yet he legacy is revered and liked/loved despite this.

 

I can't think of any other ones but I believe that these make a good starting list of criteria for a potential HotH to have to meet. (Do we include that they need to be dead? I'm thinking mainly of Mandela here)

I believe that Fidel castro fits all this criteria, the Cuban missile crisis nearly destroyed the world, but it also brought the politicians to realize the extent of the danger of what they where doing leading so the nuclear proliferation treaties, and various other ones. He fought to remove a very bad american presence and allow Cuba to be its own country (removed the casinos and prostitution for a while until terrible economic situation due to american blockade forced him to allow it again) Although we have not seen the legacy of his yet

[Val Mickey]

So in closing, I'll post whatever I like. I'll still allow you the right to be presumptuous though...deal?

 

No ruffled feathers here, Knobs. It's just that religious arguments have a way of going out of control. I know this from personal experience.

 

Also, anyone who reads a post does presume and judge. Weigh and measure. It's inevitable.

 

So in closing, I'll presume whatever I like. I'll still allow you the right to be impolite though...deal?

 

P.S Find how awesome Teddy Roosevelt is here. He reminds me of Rand al'Thor.

[Knobs Mahoney]

Its not the fact that you stated your opinion, it was the fact that you said

 

"He isnt dead"

 

Not, in my opinion, he isnt dead.

 

 

Of course that statement would be considered my opinion. I said it. How would that even be in question? Way to split hairs.

 

And opinion is, of course, the heart of every back-and-forth that has occurred in this thread so far. The Hitler thing is a perfect example.

 

Poster 1: I think he was a great strategist. This is my opinion...

 

Poster 2: He was a horrible strategist. This is my opinion because...

 

Two totally different opinions from two different people, based upon how they interpret things.

 

And anyway, I can't believe that a flippant statement that was intended to be a joke went this far. Lol-worthy.

[Knobs Mahoney]

So in closing, I'll post whatever I like. I'll still allow you the right to be presumptuous though...deal?

 

No ruffled feathers here, Knobs. It's just that religious arguments have a way of going out of control. I know this from personal experience.

 

Also, anyone who reads a post does presume and judge. Weigh and measure. It's inevitable.

 

So in closing, I'll presume whatever I like. I'll still allow you the right to be impolite though...deal?

 

P.S Find how awesome Teddy Roosevelt is here. He reminds me of Rand al'Thor.

*Commence Nerd-Rage*

 

And you disqualifying Hitler from Hero-dom because he committed suicide is not impolite? He wasn't already disqualified by being responsible for the murders of millions of people? What an impolite slap in the face to anyone with roots that cross through that sad time in history. Who knows who was offended by that statement; that's also a very controversial issue. To some, maybe even more controversial than religion.

 

Which leads me to the question of "What other controversial issues are we not allowed to discuss in this thread without provoking the ire of Val Mickey?" Genocide's ok. Suicide and Jesus are not. Can we make a list?

 

Also, I'm not sure I saw that particular criterion relating to suicide in any of the rules you posted at the beginning...no wait, that came later...conveniently after someone posted something you likely disagreed with. If you're going to be a stickler about rules, don't change them in mid-stride.

 

*End Nerd-Rage*

 

[Val Mickey]

And you disqualifying Hitler from Hero-dom because he committed suicide is not impolite? He wasn't already disqualified by being responsible for the murders of millions of people? What an impolite slap in the face to anyone with roots that cross through that sad time in history. Who knows who was offended by that statement; that's also a very controversial issue. To some, maybe even more controversial than religion.

 

You're a smart guy, so I'll be brief.

 

I disqualified Hitler for all the reasons you stated. I mentioned the suicide because it knocks the wind out of any argument of bravery. As it was, people were on both sides of the argument, and I didn't want to stoke any fire.

 

And you being impolite was all that calling me Dorothy and presumptuous, not Hitler committing suicide (!?). I would never say genocide is okay. Neither is racism, which I've seen and been through.

 

And stop sulking.

 

P.S I know you'll defend suicide as the highest form of courage next. Don't even try.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Really? I'm really the only one here who thinks Frances Perkins is a clear-cut, top-of-her-class contender for being a Hero of the Horn in our modern times?

[Knobs Mahoney]

And you disqualifying Hitler from Hero-dom because he committed suicide is not impolite? He wasn't already disqualified by being responsible for the murders of millions of people? What an impolite slap in the face to anyone with roots that cross through that sad time in history. Who knows who was offended by that statement; that's also a very controversial issue. To some, maybe even more controversial than religion.

 

You're a smart guy, so I'll be brief.

 

I disqualified Hitler for all the reasons you stated. I mentioned the suicide because it knocks the wind out of any argument of bravery. As it was, people were on both sides of the argument, and I didn't want to stoke any fire.

 

And you being impolite was all that calling me Dorothy and presumptuous, not Hitler committing suicide (!?). I would never say genocide is okay. Neither is racism, which I've seen and been through.

 

And stop sulking.

 

P.S I know you'll defend suicide as the highest form of courage next. Don't even try.

 

See how frustrating it can be to be misunderstood?

 

On a somewhat related note:

 

[Val Mickey]

@Nobs: When the argument doesn't go your way, argue about something else. And when frustrated, insult someone else. Never, ever clarify. Or apologize. Just make stuff up and throw it around, not unlike Kurt Cobain.

 

I agree about Castro, Durinax, but wouldn't Che Guevara be a better choice? Also, why Elizabeth I is Egwene reborn here.

[Majsju]

Kids, the tone here is starting to push the line of what is acceptable. Keep a more civil tone, or I will lock this thread.

 

 

That said, Castro? Durinax, no offense if you are Cuban, but Castro has ad very little influence outside Cuba, and I really think that in order to qualify as a hero, you need to influence a bit more than the politics in a single nation. Ok, arguments could be made that the missile crisis had global consequences, but I can not really see him playing much of a rolein that other than allowing USSR to place the missiles in Cuba. Once it came to negotiations, it was Kennedy and Khrushchev who sat down, leaving Castro so completely out of the deal that he was rumoured to be angrier at Khrushchev than Kennedy, for not even asking him what he thought.

[Fains nose]

If Castro isnt in then cut out Lincoln and Washington, theyve had no influence outside their country

[Crael123]

If Castro isnt in then cut out Lincoln and Washington, theyve had no influence outside their country

 

well they both were huge in making the US what it is today and the US has a ton of influence everywere. even tho we have a shitty president

[Durinax]

If Castro isnt in then cut out Lincoln and Washington, theyve had no influence outside their country

 

well they both were huge in making the US what it is today and the US has a ton of influence everywere. even tho we have a shitty president

eh I dont care much for US history so I am not sure what exactly lincoln did that was so developmentally awesome. As for Washington he really wasnt that grand of a general I think, after all many of his troops had been captured

[Barid Bel Medar]

If Castro isnt in then cut out Lincoln and Washington, theyve had no influence outside their country

 

well they both were huge in making the US what it is today and the US has a ton of influence everywere. even tho we have a shitty president

 

A common failing among US citizens, they actually think anyone else in the world cares about USA, and they arre the centre of the universe.

 

well, im sorry, but noone actually cares about USA outside of it.

 

Yes, it is a powerful nation, and invades places for oil, bullies alot of smaller countries, but in general, its not as good as USA citizens seem to think it is.

 

 

[WMTom]

Some great minds from the WW2 era:

 

George S. Patton (Incredible grasp on armor tactics)

Irwin Rommel (Same as Patton)

Eric Hartmann (Highest scoring ace of all time)

Niel Armstrong (as noted in the WoT for riding the "Eagle to the moon")

Ghandi (no note needed)

Martin Luther

Martin Luther King, Jr

Lewis "Chesty" Puller (Won five Navy Crosses), Audie Murphy and Alvin York (All did amazing feets of heroics reguardless of their nationality)

Joan of Arc

George Washington

Albert Einstein (might get flamed but he has had a profound affect on the world as we know it)

Sir Isaac Newton

Leonardo DaVinci

 

Whom ever said that Hilter was a military genius...Hilter was not, he was a bumbling idiot as far as military is concerned.  He had better tactics, equipment and training for his Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen but he demanded the decision making stay with him.  His centralized decision making process doomed his Reich from the start.  One German commander used his own intiative during the battle of Normandy and had success, the others were to terrified of Hitler to move without orders from Berlin.  It is the reason why the Allies were successful, decentralized decisions (the lowest private knew what the mission was and what had to be done to accomplish that mission, providing for the overall success).

[Durinax]

Uhm WMTom I dont knwo how to say this but these people arent from the WW2 era

Joan of Arc

George Washington

Sir Isaac Newton

Leonardo DaVinci

[Val Mickey]

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

If Abe Lincoln had not abolished slavery, it would've continued in the U.S, right? Or at least would've split. In any case, that would've been better for the Nazis, having a split/weakened/(God forbid)sympathetic U.S. The world would've been different. So Lincoln had an effect. Which could be said of almost anybody. Is he good enough for being bound to the Horn? I don't know. Could someone provide us with a link?

[WMTom]

Uhm WMTom I dont knwo how to say this but these people arent from the WW2 era

 

Quote

Joan of Arc

George Washington

Sir Isaac Newton

Leonardo DaVinci

 

Neither were Marting Luther, Martin Luther King, Jr, Niel Armstrong or Alvin York.  Yes, I am fascinated with the WW2 era, there is much to learn from it. 

[Durinax]

Uhm WMTom I dont knwo how to say this but these people arent from the WW2 era

 

Quote

Joan of Arc

George Washington

Sir Isaac Newton

Leonardo DaVinci

 

Neither were Marting Luther, Martin Luther King, Jr, Niel Armstrong or Alvin York.  Yes, I am fascinated with the WW2 era, there is much to learn from it. 

there is much to learn from any era, the only issue is how much of it was recorded

[WMTom]

Of course, you are correct.  We have so many sources covering World War 2. It is sad but war does bring incredible heroics from otherwise ordinary people.  Six years of conflict on a global scale provide for many possibilities of Horn worthy heros.  I ask you not to discount my choices because they are from World War 2.  Should they be tied to the Horn, they would have been born again and again as other Heroes through out history.  I refuse to accept some one lilke Hitler or his like as a hero because of the evil associated with him and his kind. 

[seasnake]

Sorry to break it to you, but the line "nobody outside the U.S. cares what the U.S. does" is simply wrong. 

If Castro isnt in then cut out Lincoln and Washington, theyve had no influence outside their country

 

well they both were huge in making the US what it is today and the US has a ton of influence everywere. even tho we have a shitty president

 

A common failing among US citizens, they actually think anyone else in the world cares about USA, and they arre the centre of the universe.

 

well, im sorry, but noone actually cares about USA outside of it.

 

Yes, it is a powerful nation, and invades places for oil, bullies alot of smaller countries, but in general, its not as good as USA citizens seem to think it is.

 

 

 

Sorry, but a LOT of people care what the U.S. does who live outside it.  Actually I am U.S. citizen and I've lived in the U.S., Argentina and England.  My wife has lived in the U.S. and studied abroad in Israel.  Nearly everyone we met had a strong opinion about the U.S. and many of them were very knowledgeable of our politics, foreign policies, movies, television, and other things.  Some people don't like America, some people do, but the fact that it has a worldwide influence is not really debatable. 

 

As for the "invading small countries for oil," well answer me one question.  Where's the oil?  If that was the purpose of invading Iraq, wouldn't we be shipping tanker after tanker of oil to our markets here instead of buying the majority from Mexico and Venezuela and Canada?  If we really conquered a country to exploit its oil, WHY THE HECK AREN'T WE EXPLOITING THE OIL?!

 

By the way, please tell me what oil we're looking for in Afghanistan.

 

Oh, and where's the argument we "bully small countries" come from?  From defending Kuwait in Iraqi Shield?  Or South Korea in the Korean War?  Or Britain in WWII?  Or the long financial support of Israel?  Sounds like we are perfectly willing to support small countries.  Sometimes we fight smaller countries, by often they have perfectly sizable and competent armies despite the geographic disparity, so I'd like to think it's fair.

[farthammer]

Glen Beck is a hero of the horn apparently.