Elaida's Foretelling and The Fall of Taim

[Luckers]

Or maybe just the ousting of Taim, but I wanted a title with some oomph.  ;D

 

Ok, so I've always thought Logain would be the one to out Taim, and kill him. I think most people do. Between Logain's muttering's about Taim and his glory to come it seemed very, very likely. I'm now wondering if it was too likely. If, in fact, Logain was a red herring, much like the BA Hunters were for Verin. Here is my reasoning.

 

Elaida's Foretelling; the Idiot Savant

 

Ok, so here is Elaida's Foretelling on the subject of the Black Tower, amongst other things.

 

"The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds."

 

[aCoS; Prologue, Lightnings]

 

No, Elaida's interpretation of this was that the White Tower would be whole under her, the rebel leaders cast out and scorn, Rand would know her anger (and presumably give way to it) and Toveine and co. would rend the Black Tower in blood and fire, and walk its grounds.

 

That's the idiot part.

 

Now consider the timeline of the actual fulfilment of these foretellings. The White Tower made whole (under Egwene, fulfilled in tGS.). The remnants cast out and scorned (Black Ajah. Fulfilled in tGS.). Rand al'Thor facing the Amyrlin's anger (Coming soon, ToM or aMoL). The Black Tower rent in blood and fire (coming soon, probably ToM).

 

So here is the curious part. Every single one of these was originally slated to be fulfilled in the one book. The original A Memory of Light. And yet, "and sisters shall walk [the Black Tower's] grounds] happened in aCoS? Doesn't that seem a bit weird to anyone else?

 

Now consider that that walking bit isn't actually a seperate sentence. The full sentence reads "The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds". Not, the BT will be rent. Sisters will walk the BT's grounds, but it will be rent AND sisters will walk its grounds. As if the walking is a result, or an integral part of the rending in blood and fire.

 

So here is the savant part of Elaida's guess. She was absolutely wrong about Toveine winning, but what if, god forbid, she was right in her interpretation that the Foretelling meant the Aes Sedai would rend the Black Tower in blood and fire? What if it is to be the Aes Sedai, not Logain, that out Taim and his men, or even kill them?

 

Ok, so thats some nice fancy conjecture about the prophecy. Do I have any evidence to support this potentially being the case, you ask.

 

What Went Wrong With The Aes Sedai At The Black Tower

 

The Reds and the Rebels both send sisters to the Black Tower, after which they go silent and we hear nothing from them.

 

"Mother," Romanda said, "I have made the inquires you requested. There has been no contact with those sent to the Black Tower. Not a whisper."

 

"Does this strike you as odd?" Egwene asked.

 

"Yes, Mother. With Traveling they should have been there and back by now. They should have at least sent word. This silence is disturbing."

 

[tGS; 45, The Tower Stands]

 

Disturbing indeed. Yet what is more disturbing is the question of why they disapeared. Obviously people have been anticipating that Taim did something to them, yet this is odd. When Pevara and the others first approached Taim he could easily have shielded them, or even killed them, and only his men were witness. Essentially if Taim had simply intended to kill, forcibly bond or imprison the Aes Sedai, he simply would have done so.

 

So what changed? I very much doubt that the Aes Sedai fought each other--we see Loyalist and Rebel Aes Sedai encounter each other several times, and whilst they might hiss a bit they don't take it further--I see no reason why, at the Black Tower of all places, they suddenly changed that. Furthemore its just as unlikely a Lightbound Asha'men, under the pain of Rand's orders, would have attacked them. And from that each side would have been quite careful to maintain the peace. Which only leaves Taim. But why would Taim suddenly change his mind about what to do with the Aes Sedai?

 

The answer that pops to mind is that he did something to betray himself as a darkfriend to the Aes Sedai. I'm not sure what--maybe he spoke to a Black Ajah sister that Pevara recognised, or one of the Forsaken dropped in for a meeting, or one of his Asha'men does something stupid. Don't know--but it is the only explanation I can see for him to change his mind. He got found out so he has to take them to protect the secret.

 

Ok, so there was a confrontation. We knew that already. But what, outside of a dubious sentence structure in a foretelling makes me think the Aes Sedai will come out on top? Doesn't their silence indicate they lost?

 

A Not So Dire Future

 

Amongst the Rebel sisters missing at the Black Tower is Faolain. Here is what Min has to say about her.

 

"A nasty woman," Min murmured, squinting after Faolain ... "You'd think, if there was any justice, she would have an unpleasant future ahead of her."

 

[TFOH: 50, To Teach, and Learn, 592]

 

By implication Min must have seen something good about her future. A simple absense of anything directly nasty wouldn't mean that she wouldn't have a nasty future, therefore Min must have seen something directly nice. So, however ominous the silence is, Faolain at the least seems likely to make it out safely because she hasn't yet had her nice future yet.

 

But it is true, the silence is ominous. Had they simply won they would have reported, and so that makes me think they were taken prisoner, and that one of them either evaded capture or will escape. Again with the conjecture you say? Well I do you one better and tell you I think it's going to be Pevara.

 

Pevara Being Awesome

 

During the tGS signing tour Brandon said these two things.

 

Hopefully we’ll get to see more of Pevara being awesome, but that could possibly appear in a novella on Brandon’s web page that will fill in some missing holes. But no promises!

 

7. Question: Please tell me all you can about the potential novella that fills in holes? What holes? Who? Where will it be published if written? Is this material that you really wanted to include in ToM or TGS but just couldn’t fit in? How does this match up with your feeling about not writing other stuff in the WOT world?

 

7. Answer: There are about 50,000 words of secondary plots that Sanderson wants to include in ToM. He’s just not sure all of it will get into the book. If something gets cut, he’d like to get to his fans on his website.

 

I think you can guess where I am going. Pevara gets free, or is free--frees the other sisters, and leads them against Taim in an awesome display of blood and fire either killing him, or at least kicking him out of the Black Tower, much as Egwene did with the Black Ajah.

 

But What About Logain and His Glory

 

Obviously Logain will still get his glory, I just don't think it will be through outing Taim and the fight of the Black Tower. I think each was a red herring for the other. Logain for the Black Tower, and the Black Tower for Logain's glory. I still think Logain will end up in charge of the Black Tower, and I don't doubt he'll do some awesome stuff during TG. I just no longer think this is one of them.

 

But why do I like this idea so much? I'm not the biggest fan of Aes Sedai, but they haven't done a thing right in a long time. They've been used and beaten by Aiel, Sea Folk, Black Ajah, Rand, Asha'men, Seanchan and a few others besides--and rightly so. Those of you who read my thread on the Life and Times of an Aes Sedai; A Study in Stupidity know my thoughts on them as whole.

 

But still, I wouldn't mind seeing them have some victories. And not stuff won by the Wondergirls, but victories for the old guard of Aes Sedai. They've been through the fire, and their stupidities are being exposed and dealt with, if slowly in some cases. Now we needed to remember why Aes Sedai were once respected. We need to see in them the strength and capability that crafed the original aura of the Servants of All. We need to see that they can be redeemed. Not remolded, like what Egwene's doing to them. I want to see if they, in themselves, can be redeemed.

 

Now is the time for it, and I think Pevara is the one who can do it.

 

Also this might give meaning to the Black Ajah Hunters. I'm vaguely dissapointed that there three book arc was resolved by Verin--only vaguely, coz that scene rocked. If Pevara's experience with the Black Ajah in some way reveals Taim it will be brilliant.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

I actually LIKE this theory!

[Luckers]

Really? I thought people were gonna leap all over it in defence of Logain.

 

Well, early days yet. But thanks Arani.

 

 

[Majsju]

Well, the great thing about this theory is that it in no way removes the possibility of that Taim vs logain showdown we have been drooling about for years. It just moves that possibility in time and space, as long as Taim himself manages to sneak out the backdoor while Team Pevara wrecks havoc upon his minions.

[Ashaman_Axel]

Never would have thought of that one. When I first read LoC (when Logain was Heald) and KoD (when Logain reported to Rand), I felt that Logain was being built up to face Taim for control of the BT (as most readers believe). Reading this one opens up a new direction for the much anticipated Battle of the BT. (But I still prefer the Logain vs Taim show down, there can be only one M'Hael)

 

Well, the great thing about this theory is that it in no way removes the possibility of that Taim vs logain showdown we have been drooling about for years. It just moves that possibility in time and space, as long as Taim himself manages to sneak out the backdoor while Team Pevara wrecks havoc upon his minions.

 

I just hope it doesn't happen like: Taim flees through the backdoor while Pevara wrecks havoc, Logain meets Taim then Logain just Blossom of Fire'd Taim. Epic anti-climax

[Swithin]

Hey Luckers.

 

Cool theory, but I see it struggling against itself in one area. Your assertion is that the statements in Elaida's foretelling each lead into the next, and this is convincing. The problem I see is that the BT being rent then directly follows Rand knowing Egwene's anger, which suggests that the assault on Taim's little regime will be co-ordinated between Rand and his loyal Ashaman and Egwene and some force of Aes Sedai. If the attack is a "joint operation", so to speak, then there's no reason to assume Logain would not participate in it - if anything, he's the inside man who knows the layout of the BT the best, the daily routines of Taim's coterie, etc.

 

It makes sense that those sisters have been captured by Taim, and perhaps given the A'M bond to Compel them not to betray him. Of course, an Aes Sedai has all kinds of training in making the most of technicalities thanks to the Three Oaths. I could see Pevara escaping her imprisonment and reporting the situation to Egwene, who would then have a very good reason to directly confront Rand about it. This part of the theory seems water-tight.

 

On the other hand, Rand is now free of his darkness and ready to do business. He's been ignoring Logain for a long time, but he *is* aware that Taim is legitimately plotting against him. I get the sense that he's been hesitant to act specifically *because* he fears doing anything LTT's voice tells him to, it would represent a loss of control to the madman. Now that he's clear of that, if Egwene challenges him on the captivity of Elaida's party and the missing rebel sisters, I don't see why he wouldn't say "you know, you're right... my man Logain has been trying to tell me this for a while. Let's get your people out of there."

 

I think the Taim/Logain showdown is fairly inevitable at this point. Unless "knowing the Amyrlin's anger" means Rand having his channeler farm raided without prior knowledge, Logain will still be leading the assault. Seeing as how the re-integration of men into the White Tower (vacancies are at an all-time high!) has been foreshadowed since the start of the series, and Rand's war banner is the *combined* Aes Sedai symbol, it makes sense to me that the Black Tower purge will either be an internal affair (led by Logain) or the first collaborative effort between the A'M and the AS (again led by Logain,) using circles and the like. AS attacking the BT on their own would seem to make reunification impossible.

 

Yes, the idea that a man would have to step in to make the AS useful again is irksome, but that's how RJ's complementary binary of male/female seems to work... leave the men alone and you get someone like Taim corrupting it, leave the women alone and the system becomes bureaucratic and ponderous. I wouldn't write it precisely this way, but that's what I see.

 

[edit:] Just one more thing. I've forgotten their names, but the Sisters Logain bonded seem to have developed actual respect for him (I wish I could remember the name of the one who has fallen in love with him.) Once the channels of communication are open between the WT and the BT, despite the 'unpleasantness' of the bonding situation, he'll have Sisters ready to vouch that he's not a Darkfriend, competent, and trustworthy. If he actually goes ahead and does something like marry the Sister who's fallen for him, accepts the Warder Bond in return for the kiss, and releases the others (not a theory, just a conditional statement to show how much potential he's got,) he'd be the first non-DR man to be on some kind of equal footing in the Aes Sedais' eyes... Again, I'm not saying this will happen, but I can't think of any other man in the series (besides perhaps Rand) who has this much potential clout with the AS. The expectation is that he'll be a male Amyrlin (or M'Hael, whatever) in the recombined tower - being considered a war hero by the female Aes Sedai would open the door to that, and obviously count as 'glory'.

[Luckers]

Cool theory, but I see it struggling against itself in one area. Your assertion is that the statements in Elaida's foretelling each lead into the next, and this is convincing. The problem I see is that the BT being rent then directly follows Rand knowing Egwene's anger, which suggests that the assault on Taim's little regime will be co-ordinated between Rand and his loyal Ashaman and Egwene and some force of Aes Sedai. If the attack is a "joint operation", so to speak, then there's no reason to assume Logain would not participate in it - if anything, he's the inside man who knows the layout of the BT the best, the daily routines of Taim's coterie, etc.

 

Well no. Rand knowing Egwene's anger is in a different sentence, and thus related to a different point. For instance note that the White Tower unifying and the remenant cast out and scorned all happened together, and were one sentence. The events are all around the same time, but not all necessarily in order. It is that the Black Tower is rent, AND the Aes Sedai walk it that make me believe this describes a single sequence of events.

 

Even so, that Rand might know Egwene's anger doesn't imply they will then co-ordinate an attack on the Black Tower. We have no idea what Egwene's anger will be about--though my bet is that it will be a peace with the Seanchan. I really hope Egwene won't be angry about the Aes Sedai made to swear. It seems likely, I just hope not.

 

In any case, no I don't see a joining of these theories being likely.

 

It makes sense that those sisters have been captured by Taim, and perhaps given the A'M bond to Compel them not to betray him. Of course, an Aes Sedai has all kinds of training in making the most of technicalities thanks to the Three Oaths. I could see Pevara escaping her imprisonment and reporting the situation to Egwene, who would then have a very good reason to directly confront Rand about it. This part of the theory seems water-tight.

 

Don't see it. Pevara's not the type to abandon people, and that would not be 'Pevara being awesome'. That Brandon would describe that entire subsection of plot so indicates that it is Pevara, not Logain, who will do this.

 

 

[yoniy0]

Luckers, consider me converted. Well argued. I would've liked to see this connect to what we've seen of Toveine's plots to undermine the Black Tower, but I understand it might not, now that she's no longer there.

I do think it possible that Egwene's anger with Rand will have something to do with rending the Black Tower, but the point where I find myself conflicted with what Swithin suggests is this - Nicola's foretelling. We know the Guardians are destined to balance the Servants post TG, and the wording of it makes me think that they won't move into the WT, or indeed directly cooperate with the AS.

[FarShainMael]

But then there's the Aelfinn, telling Rand that 'the two must be as one'. Following as it does upon the bit about 'the north and the east must be as one. The south and the west must be as one' this could be geographical, but if so why didn't they just say 'unite the land'. So it may mean that the AS and the A'M must be as one, as they are on the banner. Balancing may come later, as the numbers of A'M and AS increase through the efforts of Egwene and, er, Logain.

 

[Lambada]

Would this not be better in the ToM speculation boards, as this is most likely to happen in that book?

 

Anyway, I'm not sure that I like how much it rests on a single grammatical intepretation when you consider how much the traditional interpretation has been built up in-world. I mean, there is using a red herring, and then there is subverting one of the most anticipated moments in the series.

 

I don't think something that has deliberately been built up so much could be a red herring.

 

I'd happily believe this if only it had had less build up - say for example, it had only been around for a few books - say, for example, like the Rand = car'a'carn build up. Started in book 2, finished in book 4. By comparison the Taim vs Logain started in book 4 (Min's viewing of Logains glory for the first time) and will be ending in book 12 (As 12/13/14 were meant to be one).

[yoniy0]

But then there's the Aelfinn, telling Rand that 'the two must be as one'. Following as it does upon the bit about 'the north and the east must be as one. The south and the west must be as one' this could be geographical, but if so why didn't they just say 'unite the land'. So it may mean that the AS and the A'M must be as one, as they are on the banner. Balancing may come later, as the numbers of A'M and AS increase through the efforts of Egwene and, er, Logain.

The way I see it (which isn't the only way, I guess) is that they presented their answer that way to emphasize that he must unify the north and east, the Seanchan must unify the south and west, and then they need to have an alliance.

Perhaps this foreshadows that Rand wouldn't be able to make an alliance with the Seanchan until he dealt with the Borderlanders. Yeah, I think I like that idea.

[Andvari]

I'd definitely like to see Pevara doing something awesome, it was satisfying to read about a Red who wasn't a bad guy, it was getting a little bit unrealistic with all the nasty Reds and edging into a kind of homogenous, evil villain faction. Silviana helped too. But I'm pretty sure Pevara will do something good. Whether it is the "unmasking" of Taim or not remains to be seen. The Faoloain quote is a good call, though, however I'd say the viewing implies she has a happy future ahead of her not necessarily that she does something incredibly brave or good for the Light, which might itself actually be a rather unpleasant experience. 

 

Logain and the sisters aren't mutually exclusive, they may unmask him and Logain actually kills/severs him. However I have a (completely unsubstantiated) feeling that the glory is not to do with Taim but more Tarmon Gaidon related.

[Elgee]

 

Anyway, I'm not sure that I like how much it rests on a single grammatical intepretation when you consider how much the traditional interpretation has been built up in-world. I mean, there is using a red herring, and then there is subverting one of the most anticipated moments in the series.

 

I don't think something that has deliberately been built up so much could be a red herring.

 

I'd happily believe this if only it had had less build up - say for example, it had only been around for a few books - say, for example, like the Rand = car'a'carn build up. Started in book 2, finished in book 4. By comparison the Taim vs Logain started in book 4 (Min's viewing of Logains glory for the first time) and will be ending in book 12 (As 12/13/14 were meant to be one).

 

Hello? What about the Black Ajah hunters? We had 2 or 3 books of that, only to have Verin stroll in with the list of names. That still makes me mad  >:(

[Luckers]

Would this not be better in the ToM speculation boards, as this is most likely to happen in that book?

 

I want it here.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure that I like how much it rests on a single grammatical intepretation when you consider how much the traditional interpretation has been built up in-world. I mean, there is using a red herring, and then there is subverting one of the most anticipated moments in the series.

 

There is more to it than the reading of Elaida's foretelling.

 

As for the rest, it is much the same as the BA hunters and Verin. RJ was never afraid to go against fan expectation, and to date I don't think its gone wrong.

 

The Faoloain quote is a good call, though, however I'd say the viewing implies she has a happy future ahead of her not necessarily that she does something incredibly brave or good for the Light, which might itself actually be a rather unpleasant experience. 

 

That's all I was saying--A Not So Dire Future.

[FarShainMael]

RJ was never afraid to go against fan expectation

 

He just loved watching the fans squirm..  ;)

 

 

[Lambada]

 

Anyway, I'm not sure that I like how much it rests on a single grammatical intepretation when you consider how much the traditional interpretation has been built up in-world. I mean, there is using a red herring, and then there is subverting one of the most anticipated moments in the series.

 

I don't think something that has deliberately been built up so much could be a red herring.

 

I'd happily believe this if only it had had less build up - say for example, it had only been around for a few books - say, for example, like the Rand = car'a'carn build up. Started in book 2, finished in book 4. By comparison the Taim vs Logain started in book 4 (Min's viewing of Logains glory for the first time) and will be ending in book 12 (As 12/13/14 were meant to be one).

 

Hello? What about the Black Ajah hunters? We had 2 or 3 books of that, only to have Verin stroll in with the list of names. That still makes me mad  >:(

And that is the same book scale as the car'a'carn example I posted. Besides, I'm not convinced the BA is even an example of subverting fan expectations - the anticipation of the BA hunt arc was for the BA to be exposed. That happened, not in the way we expected, but it happened. Subverting the expectations would be to have had that arc end with something like the BA finding the OR flaw, and thus not being unmasked beyond the few that had already been found.

 

 

Would this not be better in the ToM speculation boards, as this is most likely to happen in that book?

I want it here.

And yet this is clearly speculation for ToM and so belongs in the speculation board. What you want is irrelevent, unless admin's can ignore the board divisions which seems to be the case...

 

Anyway, I'm not sure that I like how much it rests on a single grammatical intepretation when you consider how much the traditional interpretation has been built up in-world. I mean, there is using a red herring, and then there is subverting one of the most anticipated moments in the series.

 

There is more to it than the reading of Elaida's foretelling.

And yet Elaida's foretelling is the crux. The rest of the evidence is not conclusive on it's own. If they were captured in some way then it is only natural that we haven't heard from them. Faolains future could easily be explained - Min generally sees that Faolin will, at some point, have something pleasant in her life. Nothing says when - perhaps after the showdown her life will become pleasant. Thus meaning Min's viewing would be fulfilled. Pevara is awesome, could easily be anything - maybe she finds the flaw in the Oath Rod (that let Messana lie), or give an impassioned speech about releasing themselves from the 3 Oaths that lets that happen. We have had indication that Logains glory comes from revolting against Taim, whilst we have had no indication why Pevara is awesome.

 

As for the rest, it is much the same as the BA hunters and Verin. RJ was never afraid to go against fan expectation, and to date I don't think its gone wrong.

See above.

[DemandredFO]

You shouldn't really argue with a staff member about where to place a thread.  Ok, that's done

Luckers, I think the reason people are willing to listen to this theory is that it's Pevara.  Pevara is one of the few good AS, along with Moraine, and a few others, they will need the Asha'Man at the tower though because they probably can't take on the AM without Asha'Man of their own.

[DocBean]

I like the theory, but I'll say there isn't nearly enough evidence to say it's likely or even a strong theory.

 

Here is the main point I agree on: It's about time the Aes Sedai do something impressive.

Even Cadsuane has only impressed when breaking Semi.

 

Nothing the Aes Sedai have done (with the exception of Moraine making us think they're all powerful early on) has been important.

It's about time they redeem themselves.

 

I still believe Logain's glory will come after he picks up Callendor after Rand, and becomes the one who follows after.

[Luckers]

And that is the same book scale as the car'a'carn example I posted. Besides, I'm not convinced the BA is even an example of subverting fan expectations - the anticipation of the BA hunt arc was for the BA to be exposed. That happened, not in the way we expected, but it happened. Subverting the expectations would be to have had that arc end with something like the BA finding the OR flaw, and thus not being unmasked beyond the few that had already been found.

 

Subjective. You like the Logain theory, therefore you place weight on it as the resolution of Taim. I can however tell you that the BA Hunters were the sole fan theory for the resolution of the Black Ajah problem. Alviarin hunting them, Egwene considering Alviarin's note to Rand in KoD--they were framed more solidly to deal with the BA than Logain has ever been for Taim. Having Verin come in and out the BA is very much the same as having Pevara out Taim.

 

And yet this is clearly speculation for ToM and so belongs in the speculation board. What you want is irrelevent, unless admin's can ignore the board divisions which seems to be the case...

 

This goes here because its database, and because Brandon's comments indicate it may never go into ToM. And because I want it here, and yes, my wants are very relevent on this board.

 

And yet Elaida's foretelling is the crux. The rest of the evidence is not conclusive on it's own. If they were captured in some way then it is only natural that we haven't heard from them. Faolains future could easily be explained - Min generally sees that Faolin will, at some point, have something pleasant in her life. Nothing says when - perhaps after the showdown her life will become pleasant. Thus meaning Min's viewing would be fulfilled. Pevara is awesome, could easily be anything - maybe she finds the flaw in the Oath Rod (that let Messana lie), or give an impassioned speech about releasing themselves from the 3 Oaths that lets that happen. We have had indication that Logains glory comes from revolting against Taim, whilst we have had no indication why Pevara is awesome.

 

It's accumulative, however. You argue Elaida's foretelling is weak on its own. You argue that without Elaida's foretelling the rest of the evidence is far from conclusive. Combine the two, however, and they lend weight to each other.

 

Luckers, I think the reason people are willing to listen to this theory is that it's Pevara.  Pevara is one of the few good AS, along with Moraine, and a few others, they will need the Asha'Man at the tower though because they probably can't take on the AM without Asha'Man of their own.

 

I agree... but don't you remember early on how awesome the Aes Sedai seemed. I'm talking sort of your first reads up to about the beginning of book 5. I miss that. The Aes Sedai need to step back onto the playing field--and yes, Pevara is the perfect person to lead that, but they need to follow, and be awesome again. I think they can, if they get shown the way.

 

It's time... you know.

 

I like the theory, but I'll say there isn't nearly enough evidence to say it's likely or even a strong theory.

 

I agree. This is the weakest theory I have to offer. I like it though.

 

 

[Dream]

No, Elaida's interpretation of this was that the White Tower would be whole under her, the rebel leaders cast out and scorn, Rand would know her anger (and presumably give way to it) and Toveine and co. would rend the Black Tower in blood and fire, and walk its grounds.

 

That's the idiot part.

 

Ah, that's why she's done all the things she has.  I just assumed she was an idiot but she was just overconfident of her foretelling, or rather her interpretation of it.  I'd make a comparison Elayne but...well, I like Elayne.

 

So here is the savant part of Elaida's guess. She was absolutely wrong about Toveine winning, but what if, god forbid, she was right in her interpretation that the Foretelling meant the Aes Sedai would rend the Black Tower in blood and fire? What if it is to be the Aes Sedai, not Logain, that out Taim and his men, or even kill them?

 

I've always believed the Aes Sedai would be involved in the fall of the Black Tower, as per the foretelling.  I also believe that the foretelling was done in chronological order.  I like order and it just makes more sense than to have prophecy spew out in random order.  So far, the first two conditions have been met in chronological order, the Tower was made whole before the Black Ajah was cast out of it.[Edit: nevermind, that was one sentence.]  I'm positive Rand will face Egwene before the Black Tower is rent.  That provides the opportunity for Sisters to walk the grounds AND let Logain have his glory against Taim.

 

I think you can guess where I am going. Pevara gets free, or is free--frees the other sisters, and leads them against Taim in an awesome display of blood and fire either killing him, or at least kicking him out of the Black Tower, much as Egwene did with the Black Ajah.

 

Knocking off Taim would fall under the primary story arc and I seriously doubt Sanderson would even consider cutting something like that out.  Sorry, but I don't think Pevarra will be THAT awesome.

 

[Luckers]

Knocking off Taim would fall under the primary story arc and I seriously doubt Sanderson would even consider cutting something like that out.  Sorry, but I don't think Pevarra will be THAT awesome.

 

So Taim doesn't die. The confrontation at the Black Tower could well be considered a secondary plotline if you consider what has to happen yet. Mat and Perrin are the focus of ToM.

[DocBean]

Why do people think Logain's glory has anything to do with the Black Tower?

 

In my mind having the Ashaman follow you as their leader does not buy you fame and glory.

If anything it's quite the opposite.

 

Logain will be the one who follows after.

Rand will do the work, Logain will get the glory.

[Dream]

So Taim doesn't die. The confrontation at the Black Tower could well be considered a secondary plotline if you consider what has to happen yet. Mat and Perrin are the focus of ToM.

But what you are suggesting is a resolution to the Black Tower plotline.  Readers would riot if Pevarra just showed up and said, "Oh, don't worry about the Black Tower.  They gave us some trouble but we managed to handle it off-screen."

 

Also, I consider the Black Tower more important than whatever Perrin has to do.  But that's just me.

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

Hey!  >:( You leave Perrin alone!

 

Perrin is going to make green things grow again and help save the envoironment. Wasn't it a Min viewing of tree flowing around his head? That hasn't happened yet.

 

Sorry I know way off thread.

 

I always suspected that everythinhg that is expected to happen between Taim and Logain wouldn't happen or it won't be just as simple as a straight up fight between the two.

If I'm being honest I don't like Logain.

[Crael123]

i kinda hope the aes sedai die the fools they are. they are an old order. i am still positive that my theory of the AoL returning, Logain uniting the two towers, and aes sedai biting the dust (well the aes sedai order)biting the dust and then male and female channelers will be held in equal esteem once again. and that will be Logains glory. oh and Logain will kill Taim. of course. perava can help i guess.