What is Ishamael?

[Fains nose]

Is Ishamael/Moridin what he says, has he fought Rand again and again in every age/turning of the wheel, making him to the shadow what Rand is to the Light, a soul that is reborn in every age to fight on the Dark Ones behalf, like Rand is a soul that is reborn to fight on the Creators behalf. Was that the Dark Ones voice at the end of tEotW, was he refering to Ishamael as the chosen one. Since the Dark One is not a physical being, and if the Last Battle involves an actual duel between Rand and the DO, will the DO use/poses Moridins body in some as yet unseen way to fight Rand. And finally i want to know if people think that the Last Battle means the last battle between the Light and Shadow, that there will be an end to the DO, Ishamaels soul, and the dragons soul in every future age and turning? 

[Neemo]

last battle of the cycle, but everyone is destined to be spun out again

 

i thought that the most commmon accepted theory was that Shadar Haran is the DO's avatar for manifestation

 

o always took it that the forsaken were like the heroes of the horn...only they arent reborn to fight for the light, but for the darkenss

[Duskfire]

See, I don't know if I believe Ishamael at all here.

 

RJ has stated before that no one is destined to join the Shadow. When it comes to choosing good or evil, everyone has a free will. Therefore, Ishamael being some sort of reborn champion of the Dark goes against the whole idea of the Pattern in the first place. Not to mention, how would Ishy even know that? How would he have figured out that apparently he and the Dragon have fought numerous times? The only way he could know really is through the Dark One, and the DO isn't exactly known for his honesty.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yea, I am not sure about the champion of light bit, but I think he turned to the Shadow because remember, he was a philospher, and these sorts of questions are what they think about, he most likely, while philosophizing, developed the theory he talks to Rand about (whos to say that its right in any case? Should we take Moridins sole word for it?) and thus, as he says, decided the light was a lost cause and joined the shadow. Nothing more than that i dont think

[Demiandre]

@Duskfire

 

Oh s**t! I believed IT when IT promised me immortality!! :)

 

I seem to remember that RJ said somewhere Ishamael was the Champion of Light of the previous Era, and as he turned to the Shadow, the precedant battle ended in a draw. For the Light to win, the Dragon shall ally to the Champion of Light (not sure of it) but in the same time, I remember a quote saying the Dragon has been numerously the Champion of Light.

 

And if the Champion of Light and the Dragon means victory for the Light, then it is indeed the Last Battle. So Ishy/din is/will be a double-agent (well, maybe triple, at that...).

[Barid Bel Medar]

@Duskfire

 

Oh s**t! I believed IT when IT promised me immortality!! :)

 

I seem to remember that RJ said somewhere Ishamael was the Champion of Light of the previous Era, and as he turned to the Shadow, the precedant battle ended in a draw. For the Light to win, the Dragon shall ally to the Champion of Light (not sure of it) but in the same time, I remember a quote saying the Dragon has been numerously the Champion of Light.

 

And if the Champion of Light and the Dragon means victory for the Light, then it is indeed the Last Battle. So Ishy/din is/will be a double-agent (well, maybe triple, at that...).

 

As to the second paragraph, no, it is not said that IShamael is the CoL, it is said that the Dragon and CoL is not necessarily the same person and that in pervious ages the CoL has turned to the shadow. Nothing, as far as i know, is said about the Dragon having to ally with the CoL.

[Demiandre]

But the Dragon fights the Shadow as does the CoL, I suppose. So if the fact that when the CoL is turned is a draw, and if the Dragon is turn it's a victory on the Shadows part, then logicamly, the CoL and the Dragon together have to fight together to have a chance to win.

 

And I do not know yet if I can trust someone whose name is Barid Bel Medar :)

(And to make the joke, it's normal we never saw Demandred on screen in the books! He is ruling on Dragonmount forum! Sorry for my pityful sense of humor...)

[Barid Bel Medar]

But the Dragon fights the Shadow as does the CoL, I suppose. So if the fact that when the CoL is turned is a draw, and if the Dragon is turn it's a victory on the Shadows part, then logicamly, the CoL and the Dragon together have to fight together to have a chance to win.

 

And I do not know yet if I can trust someone whose name is Barid Bel Medar :)

(And to make the joke, it's normal we never saw Demandred on screen in the books! He is ruling on Dragonmount forum! Sorry for my pityful sense of humor...)

 

Haha, well thats what RJ has said. My own thoughts is that teh "Dragon" was not a thing until LTT, who created  the name. I doubt the Dragon was around in previous ages, it is just a name for LTT, incidentally Rand, who is the CoL (possibly) or LTT soul reborn. If that makes sense.

I guess im trying to say, that the term Champion of Light, refers to just that, not a person witht he title Champion of Light, whereas the Dragon is a name (for whatever reason) given to LTT in the AoL, and the easiest way to use the prophecies, since none remeber the previous ages, refer to the CoL (rand) as the CoL they have known (or thought) who was incidentally named the Dragon.

 

In any case, yes, I made an appearance in LoC and such to get the pesky AS and Dragon off my heels. The power of the Forum (called the Forum Power, or FP) is stronger and more addictive than the TP. I shall rule the wheel with that FP,  :P

[Ozzie_aiel]

The name is new, the soul that fights the dark one is old

[Barid Bel Medar]

The name is new, the soul that fights the dark one is old

 

haha, yes, exactly

[Demiandre]

The CoL is like the title Garion has in the Edding's books (children of Light, no?)

 

It's a way of naming a particular person with a major role in the fight between Light and Shadow. I like your reasonning with the Dragon and his name, but weren't there others Dragon before LTT? And if the Dragon (not LTT or Rand, but the soul reborn for each fight) isn't aways the CoL, then they could be two different person when the Dragon lives. It's how I understand it anyway. And added to Ishamael CoLness in the Age of Legend, it points toward another treason for me...

[Barid Bel Medar]

The CoL is like the title Garion has in the Edding's books (children of Light, no?)

 

It's a way of naming a particular person with a major role in the fight between Light and Shadow. I like your reasonning with the Dragon and his name, but weren't there others Dragon before LTT? And if the Dragon (not LTT or Rand, but the soul reborn for each fight) isn't aways the CoL, then they could be two different person when the Dragon lives. It's how I understand it anyway. And added to Ishamael CoLness in the Age of Legend, it points toward another treason for me...

 

The whole point is that there wasnt other Dragons in ages past...

theres no evidence of Ishamael being the CoL anyway, its just conjecture, everything points to Rand being the CoL. That quote from RJ saying that the Dragon and the CoL arnt the same thing, is the fact that the Dragon is only LTT name, not a name that has been in every age

[Ozzie_aiel]

Lets not forget, Rand/Dragon/whoever you wanna call him, though spun out to fight the Dark One and given all the tools (powerful channeller and Ta'varen), still has the power to make his own decisions. He can choose to fight, choose to surrender, choose to cut his own throat if he so desires. In the infinate previous ages chances are hes down all three. The difference is now, with the Bore drilled into reality itself, the Dark One is physically (as physically as he can) able to touch the world, so surrender or death would have serious concequences.

[yoniy0]

Two points for thought. The first, Moridin says in the prologue that Al'Thor must not be harmed until it is time for him to face Moridin at the last day. So he obviously thinks that he's going to represent the DO in that fight.

And secondly, Ishamael could have just meant that since the Wheel turned infinitely many times already, he himself have battled Rand thousands of times (I don't know what the odds are that he'd be born at the right time and choose the Shadow, but I guess it's possible that both occurred many times before).

[Barid Bel Medar]

Two points for thought. The first, Moridin says in the prologue that Al'Thor must not be harmed until it is time for him to face Moridin at the last day. So he obviously thinks that he's going to represent the DO in that fight.

And secondly, Ishamael could have just meant that since the Wheel turned infinitely many times already, he himself have battled Rand thousands of times (I don't know what the odds are that he'd be born at the right time and choose the Shadow, but I guess it's possible that both occurred many times before).

 

Yes, I agree with both of the points, I think it was Ishamael's knowledge of the whole Souls being reborn as the ages pass (from being a Philosopher) not actual personal knowledge of these thousand of fights, otherwise he would not say "I win again Lews Therin" for he would know the other names for the soul that he has fought

 

[Ozzie_aiel]

Moridin doesnt want Rand killed til he has to be coz they're linked. He felt Rands hand go byebye, it still pains him, probably more than it does Rand. He has a pretty good idea of what will happen if Rand was wracked.

[yoniy0]

Agreed. The point was that he said "until it is time for him to meet me at the last day", indicating that he does plan to, well, face Rand, eventually.

[Duskfire]

Two points for thought. The first, Moridin says in the prologue that Al'Thor must not be harmed until it is time for him to face Moridin at the last day. So he obviously thinks that he's going to represent the DO in that fight.

And secondly, Ishamael could have just meant that since the Wheel turned infinitely many times already, he himself have battled Rand thousands of times (I don't know what the odds are that he'd be born at the right time and choose the Shadow, but I guess it's possible that both occurred many times before).

 

But how would he have known this? Not only would there be billions upon billions of souls, but for all he knew he was a good guy at the previous turnings. Thats why what he is saying is something he either has made up to justify his thoughts, or the Dark One told him and Ishamael accepted it.

[Luckers]

Every time I see this title I want to make a lame joke like "He's sagitarius, and isn't he just dreamy."

 

Of course I have far too much class for that.

 

Two points for thought. The first, Moridin says in the prologue that Al'Thor must not be harmed until it is time for him to face Moridin at the last day. So he obviously thinks that he's going to represent the DO in that fight.

 

Or after what happened to him when Semirhage blew Rand's hand off he's afraid of someone killing Rand, and is trying to phrase it a way that sounds reasonable.

 

I mean I don't doubt he has a general thought of 'I'll have to break the bond and kill Rand' but I don't think thats so much 'I'm the Shadow's champion' as it is 'no one else is gonna bother breaking the bond, so I'd damn well better be the one to do it.'

 

 

[farthammer]

Hasn't he given similar orders prior to the linking event?

[Luckers]

The old No Kill order was rescinded in tPoD--it was about the chance of turning him, and that passed. Then, what do you know, the second the bond becomes strong enough to be percieved he re-issues the No Kill order.

[Alanna]

The CoL is like the title Garion has in the Edding's books (children of Light, no?)

 

It's a way of naming a particular person with a major role in the fight between Light and Shadow. I like your reasonning with the Dragon and his name, but weren't there others Dragon before LTT? And if the Dragon (not LTT or Rand, but the soul reborn for each fight) isn't aways the CoL, then they could be two different person when the Dragon lives. It's how I understand it anyway. And added to Ishamael CoLness in the Age of Legend, it points toward another treason for me...

 

I don't think there was other Dragons in previous ages, though (I'm going entirely off of the books here, I haven't read most of RJ's interviews. If anyone wants to point me in the direction of some, I would love to though ). The only time we hear of other Dragons is from Ishamael, in EotW, but when he mentions previous 'Dragons' he uses names like Guaire Amalasan and Yurian and Logain...false dragons and men who could channel, but not real Dragons, any of them. Plus from the same Age.

 

Also, in FoH, Graendal says that Rand being the Dragon Reborn is something that has never happened before, one single person being reborn like that. SO that sounds like this is the only time he has ever been reborn through the Ages.

 

Which supports the idea that while the CoL may be spun out again and again, the Dragon is, in fact, only one example of him and, essentially, only a title.

[Senexx]

Personally I'm not interested in an avatar v. avatar fight yet again.

 

Eddings' Bhelliom v. Klael will do me on that front.

[Luckers]

Also, in FoH, Graendal says that Rand being the Dragon Reborn is something that has never happened before, one single person being reborn like that. SO that sounds like this is the only time he has ever been reborn through the Ages.

 

What she says is that a specific man's rebirth being foretold had never happened before. Rebirth happens all the time.

[bobothebarbarian]

Every time I see this title I want to make a lame joke like "He's sagitarius, and isn't he just dreamy."

I was thinking he was a boat captain after the great white whale ::)

---

OK I have posted my thoughts on Ishamael before but here goes again. Just to sum it up though I kinda think that both Ishamael and LTT are Champions but it doesn't matter what side as long as they are opposed. I get that from when he is yelling at Rand "you Idiot we have fought countless times over countless turnings of the wheel!" and from what we know of Ishamael when he was still Elan Morin Tedronai

---

 

this is my Idea about Ishamael and what makes him tick. Not really meant to be humorus but is in a sad kind of way  Grin

Before Ishmael went to the shadow in the AoL he was Known as Elan Morin Tedronai, he was one of the foremost philosophers of his time, possibly the foremost. His books (among them Analysis of Perceived Meaning, Reality and the Absence of Meaning, and the Disassembly of Reason), while too esoteric for wide popularity, were extremely influential in many areas beyond philosophy, especially in the arts.)

 

So what that tells us is that he was 1.smart and 2.thought to be correct. So when he went to the shadow it was basically saying that the shadow was the right path. Or possibly even the good path meaning = dark one =good LTT side = bad.

“(The meaning of his new name - "Betrayer of Hope", tells us that he was associated with "hope" before, or how could he betray it.

Maybe the circumstances of how Ishamael got his name can fully explain the name itself - he publicly declared his conversions to Shadow at a world conference devoted to solutions against the problems after the Bore (maybe this conference was associated with hope to heal the problems), and his action caused serious riots. One of the prominent defenders of the Good (as AS were considered in that times) changing side to the evil was really a great shock.

But I feel the problem would be not so great if he was known to be unsure of his beliefs before, if there was anything ambiguous in him before this incident. )”So by his turning causing riots I take it as a large part of the population as saying hey he’s got a point! His side is the Good side we should be like that and instantly joining the shadow also. So now we have a huge city full of scared people now on opposite sides. Both thinking there new religious ideas are right and good of course riots are going to break out. As we see today in the Middle East. I think that his turning to the shadow and not changing his way of thinking is what the scary thing to people was.

So what I am saying is basically that pre Bore the world had no religion to speak of and was close to perfection all of the sudden a “GOD” is introduced and there is war. Is one side good one side evil? What the hell difference does it make?

But as a lot of people here have said, Ishamael manifests total indifference about the theoretical heritage of Elan Morin. This is indication, that Ishamael doesn't think that Elan Morin writings have something important or useful in them. When he turned to the Shadow, he most likely declared his pre-turning philosophy for obsolete. Maybe he could consider Elan Morin writings even for being wrong. Turning to the Shadow he changed also his philosophy.(uncommon for a self-confident author)

I say that Is completely backwards his pre turn philosophy (Analysis of Perceived Meaning, Reality and the Absence of Meaning) explain his turn and his name. The hope destroyed was the hope of the people that it was worth it to fight the shadow.

So in conclusion I believe Ishamael knows one inescapable fact of human nature! That with no “religion” to fight over the world could be perfection, with even just one religion (proven as in WOT books or not proven as in our real world) humans will kill each other because of it. WOT world = Reality and the Absence of Meaning. Our world =Analysis of Perceived Meaning and then the third book of Elan Morin has the title "the Disassembly of Reason". = There is no reason for us to kill each other but for some reason we do