Prove to me Graendal is alive

[Vermillion]

If she already knew he was on the road to insanity, it's not a matter of her needing up to the minute information on where his head is currently at.  She'd either knowingly risk he hadn't completely lost it or not.

 

This was from a man who lost his humanity.  Its not just the voice.  I think you guys are missing the point of view of how it would appear to someone on the outside and the context of the event.  Rand was a bit loopy but functioning person.  He had reached a personal dark point driven by the stress of what his existences was and the prices and torment he had paid.  He was fatalistic about his destiny and felt he needed to be hard to win or even just as an excuse to go on.

 

As someone who was on the inside of the mans head I was surprised.  People who knew him all his life were surprised.  Yet a Forsaken who is isolated in mountain range fortress is supposed to assume a man who can't kill a woman is about to drop a nuclear balefire attack with the most power sa'angreal ever created on a palace full of people. It goes against the whole context of the passage,"shock."  Rand did something that not even the bad guys would be willing to do.  It was to show how far Rand had fallen.  How cold he was.  Not to show how brilliant a mind reading forsaken is.

[water_seeker]

If she already knew he was on the road to insanity, it's not a matter of her needing up to the minute information on where his head is currently at.  She'd either knowingly risk he hadn't completely lost it or not.

 

This was from a man who lost his humanity.  Its not just the voice.  I think you guys are missing the point of view of how it would appear to someone on the outside and the context of the event.  Rand was a bit loopy but functioning person.  He had reached a personal dark point driven by the stress of what his existences was and the prices and torment he had paid.  He was fatalistic about his destiny and felt he needed to be hard to win or even just as an excuse to go on.

 

As someone who was on the inside of the mans head I was surprised.  People who knew him all his life were surprised.  Yet a Forsaken who is isolated in mountain range fortress is supposed to assume a man who can't kill a woman is about to drop a nuclear balefire attack with the most power sa'angreal ever created on a palace full of people. It goes against the whole context of the passage,"shock."  Rand did something that not even the bad guys would be willing to do.  It was to show how far Rand had fallen.  How cold he was.  Not to show how brilliant a mind reading forsaken is.

 

So what?  RJ/BS couldn't kill 2 birds with one stone here?  I hope you don't really believe that this (or any) scene couldn't serve more than one purpose.

 

Yes, now we know how far he's willing to go.  Graendal's life or death doesn't change what we saw from Rand.

 

And here's the thing about the destroying her fortress thing...he says it to Ramshalan (and by extension, to Graendal) before he sends Ram to her fortress.  Whether or not he's ever done something like that before she would be moronic not to at least assume it's possible that now he might.  She should know that he offed Semi by this point, she most likely has eyes and ears near Rand so she should be informed of his mental decline.

 

I don't get why people are so stubborn that they can't admit it's at least possible she's alive.  I'm willing to admit that it's possible she died...

[MikeRiley]

The forsaken fail to Rand all through the books because they do not understand how he works. Yes, they take for granted that he won't kill women, but balefiring an entire fortress is something they would consider doing themselves if the need arised, so they would consider that is something he might do as well.

 

It can't even be proven that it was Graendel that used compulsion on Ramshalan, so how can we prove or disprove that Graendel is dead because the compulsion disappeared?

 

"Yes. Rand, he's under a heavy Compulsion. There are a lot of weaves here. Not as bad as the chandler's apprentice, or maybe just more subtle."

 

How many people in this age have that kind of skill with compulsion though?

 

More subtle isn't the same as "it is more subtle", but any number of the current surviving forsaken could. Sure, there's no reason to believe it was anybody other than Graendel if it was indeed a forsaken, and if we were told flat out that's how it was, I would be saying Graendel did it. But what about the Crystal Throne? It inspires awe.. how? That sounds like compulsion to me and we never get a good example of the level it uses. It would also have been something Graendel would be most interested in if she heard of its existence, not to mention it no longer has an occupier as Semirhage recently made a blood bath of the Court of the Nine Moons.

 

So my idea is that Graendel learned of Rand's plan through compulsion then simply told him what to do. The Crystal Throne would have been destroyed after she left, and the compulsion removed.

 

She didn't even have to expect balefire, by the way. It could have been any kind of attack. She knows Rand knows where he is, she has the choice of sticking around and facing him or fleeing. The compulsion would have bought her some time at the very least.

[farthammer]

This was from a man who lost his humanity.  Its not just the voice.  I think you guys are missing the point of view of how it would appear to someone on the outside and the context of the event.

 

The thing is, it doesn't really matter because once you accept the idea that he was losing his grip on sanity, you simply can't predict what he is capable of in regards to violence.  If Semirhage hit the nail on the head (or at least very close) about his insanity then certainly Graendal knew well before Ramshalan showed up.

[Shadow Rider]

Of the various things Luckers mentions, the strongest to me is that Rand stupidly blabbed half his plan in front of Ramshalan. So Graendel would've known that Rand had found her, and wanted to kill her, and wanted a way to confirm her death.

 

 

Yes I agree Ramshalan, would have blabbed of Rands presence. Graendal must have had an idea of what was about to happen, she is supposed to be very smart.....She got out before the fortress was BFed.

[Luckers]

E=MC^2 therefore Graendal lives.

[OptimusPrime]

Switching sides again then?

[Luckers]

Not really. Kath antagonised me via email, so she gets some Luckers venom.

 

READ MY STUFF WOMAN!

 

 

 

 

 

Does anyone else feel bad for me that my venom is mathematical? *sigh*

[darth_hel]

Everything is mathematical, your venom is just more easily recognizable math.

[FarShainMael]

Of the various things Luckers mentions, the strongest to me is that Rand stupidly blabbed half his plan in front of Ramshalan. So Graendel would've known that Rand had found her, and wanted to kill her, and wanted a way to confirm her death.

 

Stupidly? I'm not so sure..

 

So how do I defeat her?

 

She will vanish the moment I threaten her, running to one of a dozen other refuges she is sure to have set up. She won't fight me head-on, yet if I destroy her fortress in a surprise attack, I risk letting her slip away and never knowing if I've finished her."

 

I have to peer into her eyes, see into her soul, and know that it's her that I face and not some decoy. I have to do that without frightening her into running. How? How can I kill a foe who is more clever than myself, a foe who is impossible to surprise, yet who is also unwilling to confront me?

 

Might not Graendal's reaction to this be 'Oh, so he wants me to run, does he? He's trying to flush me out? Then I'll stay here, and he'll go off on a wild-goose chase!'

 

 

[yoniy0]

I don't know about that. Still, the thing is, she might have been prepared for Rand to try launching a conventional attack. We don't know what traps might've been waiting for him, all gone now due to the use of BF. That's the reason I don't buy into the 'it's weird she didn't do anything' argument.

 

Luckers, I thought you were beautifully venomous, I don't pity you one bit. But since when is $E=mc^{2}$ math? I myself support Miyasi's approach, that while math is applicable to the real world, you rarely encounter actual math in it. I don't know what's weirder, finding yourself in agreement with a Black sister or referring to her as if she were a real person. Probably the latter, though.

[JenniferL]

Not really. Kath antagonised me via email, so she gets some Luckers venom.

 

READ MY STUFF WOMAN!

 

 

 

 

 

Does anyone else feel bad for me that my venom is mathematical? *sigh*

 

Mathematics? My only weakness! How did you know???

[Jeangray]

There is no fear of immediate danger if he's not nuking.

 

This doesn't make sense to me. There is always a non-considerable amount of danger when confronting a strong ta'veren, leave alone one with the strongest sa'angreal known to humanity at his fingertips. You can't plan on leaving at the last moment, because the chance of some ta'veren twisting preventing you is just too high.

 

Oh, and let's not forget that Elderene of Mantheren was apparently able to target Dreadlords specifically with a seeking killer weave. Which means that Rand or somebody from his entourage could have done the same to Graendal if they'd have thought about it! I.e. being in a fortress surrounded by other people wasn't much of protection.

 

OK, I decided to re-post my argument from another thread:

 

Why do folks believe that Graendal would need to know that Rand wants to  balefire her, in order to set up some extensive exit precautions? Why wouldn't the fact that an extremely powerful ta'veren is actively looking for her - which Rand told everybody who'd listen in Arad Doman, be enough to plot something that would make him stop looking?

 

I mean, OK, Rand may have been loath to kill women in the past, but as far as Graendal knows, Lanfear is still dead. So, either Rand did in fact make an exception for a FS or people in his entourage are able and willing to do it for him. Neither of which is really reassuring.

Also, getting captured would be bad enough, as she knows quite well, having been present during the discussion of Semirhage's fate.

And again, against a ta'veren there is no guarantee that she'd be able to escape if she waits until the very last moment to do so.

 

So, however you look at it, Rand being focussed on searching for her is bad news. And him being such a strong ta'veren, she knows that no matter how well hidden, her base could never be safe as long as he has even a vaguest idea in which region she could be found.

 

Now, given that Graendal is supposed to be highly intelligent, according to Rand/LTT and her stated POV (in ACOS, I think) that she'd run at the first sign of Rand gunning for her, even if it meant abandoning everything, what would you expect her to do?

To sit oblivious in her base, having no clue that enemies have arrived in the easy strike distance? Or to do something else?

 

Now, a few facts regarding her options:

 

* Compulsion weaves can be set to dissipate at a given time interval. See Rahvin in TFoH.

 

* Forsaken are aware of the danger of detection if they leave active Compulsion weaves on somebody who might be examined. Ditto - and Rahvin was a man! How much more likely for saidar Compulsion to be detected?

 

* 3rd Age AS are capable of delving for Compulsion - see Verin's POV in TPoD prologue.

 

* Compulsion for questioning does no permanent harm - see Nynaeve and Elayne with Moghedien in TSR and Cyndane and Moghedien with Graendal.

 

* It is possible to set triggers on a weave, which could be set off by specific circumstances. Also, this weave can somehow avert the channeler what has happened. See Sammael's ambassador to Rand.

 

* It is possible to teach AoL weaves to 3rd-agers very quickly, as has been done countless times during the books. Or to place knowledge of exotic weaves directly in their brain, as Shaidar Haran has done to Elza.

 

Given all this, why claim that Graendal would need split-second timing or exceptional luck to fool Rand? She had a full tool-box to make it happen and every reason to employ is. That is, if she really is moderately intelligent, rather than dumb as a stump, like many other Forsaken.  

 

P.S. I have forgotten to mention that Graendal was forbidden to hurt Rand physically. So she couldn't even set traps to protect herself. 

[yoniy0]

Oh, and let's not forget that Elderene of Mantheren was apparently able to target Dreadlords specifically with a seeking killer weave. Which means that Rand or somebody from his entourage could have done the same to Graendal if they'd have thought about it! I.e. being in a fortress surrounded by other people wasn't much of protection.

This is absurd. If Graendal's in any real danger of Rand using such a weave, his knowing where she was at the moment is irrelevant. He would've killed her months ago, along with every other surviving Forsaken. Or they would've killed him before he had the chance to. Either way, that's completely and utterly ridiculous. There must be limits to your ability to use such weaves.

[Jeangray]

This is absurd. If Graendal's in any real danger of Rand using such a weave, his knowing where she was at the moment is irrelevant.

 

Well, I imagine that the weave did have a range. And since it has been allegedly used in the past, by a 3rd-ager even how is it absurd? Rand also used something similar to kill all the Shadowspawn in the Stone of Tear.

 

Oh, and BTW, when people say that Graendal may have filled the fortress with traps and expected Rand to wade through them, do they forget that Graendal was forbidden from as much as hurting Rand physically, under the threat of Shadow's extreme displeasure? I.e. her hands were completely tied, yet she was expected to sit still once Rand opened a gateway near her fortress? Or even before, when he announced  that rooting her out was his goal?

[FarShainMael]

He was using Callandor at the time, wasn't he? Might that weave have been dependent on it?

 

[yoniy0]

This is absurd. If Graendal's in any real danger of Rand using such a weave, his knowing where she was at the moment is irrelevant.

Well, I imagine that the weave did have a range. And since it has been allegedly used in the past, by a 3rd-ager even how is it absurd? Rand also used something similar to kill all the Shadowspawn in the Stone of Tear. 

Eldrene was all the way up in the Mountains of Mist when she used her weave to kill Dreadlords that were supposedly present at the battle of Emond's Field. That's why it's absurd, Rand would have been able to use it to kill Graendal from Bandar Eban, or for that matter to kill Rahvin from outside Caemlin and Sammael from beyond the parameter he's erected around Ilian. And Osan'gar could have used it to kill Rand (additional examples include Sammael using it to kill Moiraine and co. back in TDR, but really, there're too many examples to list here).

[Red Hand Man]

List of people who know where Graendal is hiding:  Moridin, Moghedien, Cyndane, Shaidar Haran, then Rand.  That's a lot of people who could use her location against her, she knows this, and she definitely wants to rise above all the other Forsaken.  It's not clear how much freedom Cyndane and Moghedien have to move against her, but taking out Moridin might net her those mindtraps for herself.

 

1: "Then tell me this: How do I outthink an enemy I know is smarter than I am?"

2: "I wish that were true," Rand said softly. "I face some of the most crafty people who have ever lived. My

current foe understands the minds of others in a way that I cannot hope to match. So how do I defeat her?

She will vanish the moment I threaten her, running to one of a dozen other refuges she is sure to have set

up. She won't fight me head-on, yet if I destroy her fortress in a surprise attack, I risk letting her slip away

and never knowing if I've finished her."

3: "I have to peer into her eyes, see into her soul, and know that it's her that I

face and not some decoy. I have to do that without frightening her into running. How? How can I kill a

foe who is more clever than myself, a foe who is impossible to surprise, yet who is also unwilling to

confront me?"

4: But I am still intrigued by the first comment you made.

You said I need allies who are smarter than I am, and that is true. It is time for you to be off, then."

5: "Too many of the Domani bloodborn are hiding,

scattered through the country. I would have them as my allies, but it would be a drain on my time to seek

each one in person. Fortunately, I have you to go on my behalf."

 

So she might very well have died, but if we shift the assumption away from that being Rand's only intention, the statements he delivered to her might look like this from her POV:

 

1: "Then tell me this: How do I outthink an enemy I know is smarter than I am?"

2: "I face some of the most crafty people [Forsaken] who have ever lived. You understand the minds of other Forsaken in a way that I cannot hope to match. So how do I defeat them?

They will vanish the moment I threaten them, running to one of a dozen other refuges they are sure to have set

up. They won't fight me head-on, yet if I destroy their base of power in a surprise attack, I risk letting them slip away

and never knowing if I've finished them."

3: "I have to peer into their eyes, see into their souls, and know that it's them that I

face and not some decoy. I have to do that without frightening them into running. How? How can I kill a

foe who is more clever than myself, a foe who is impossible to surprise, yet who is also unwilling to

confront me?"

4: "I need allies who are smarter than I am, and that is true." <=> We both want all the other Forsaken eliminated.

5: "Too many of the Forsaken are hiding,

scattered through the world. I would have them dead, but it would be a drain on my time to seek

each one in person. Fortunately, I have you to go on my behalf."

 

He then demonstrates he has the most powerful sa`angreal in the world and nothing is no longer off limits.  Provided she did escape, she has a window of opportunity where the rest of the Forsaken believe she is dead by balefire.  She definitely has the ability to outsmart the other Forsaken, she knows more about them than Rand does, and could easily begin pointing them out one by one by falsifying deeds based on their quirks.  Something like Sammael's original intention of being the last man standing as a result of a truce.

 

Idiot, Min thought. If your enemy is that crafty and ruthless, an alliance will only end with an assassin's dagger in

your back.

 

Rand pretty clearly no longer cared.

 

Quite absurd that not a single poster in this thread other than farthammer has seen this.  I certainly didn't pick up on this possibility when I was reading it, but it does fit in with all of the secret notes and hidden messages that the Forsaken and much of Randland is want to do.

 

This says Graendal is either very very dead or is actively seeking out ways to let Rand know where the Forsaken are.

[johthohar]

But what about the Crystal Throne? It inspires awe.. how? That sounds like compulsion to me and we never get a good example of the level it uses. It would also have been something Graendel would be most interested in if she heard of its existence, not to mention it no longer has an occupier as Semirhage recently made a blood bath of the Court of the Nine Moons.

 

So my idea is that Graendel learned of Rand's plan through compulsion then simply told him what to do. The Crystal Throne would have been destroyed after she left, and the compulsion removed.

 

This would be a valid theory except for the fact that Rand has yet to fulfill the prophecy that the Dragon Reborn will kneel before the Crystal Throne.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Isn't that prophecy one of the seanchan ones? Didn't Ishy corrupt them?

[Kadere]

The Crystal Throne is a ter'angreal that inspires awe in all who approach it. It has nothing to do with Compulsion and does not require channeling. (The Guide)

[Luckers]

Luckers, I thought you were beautifully venomous, I don't pity you one bit. But since when is $E=mc^{2}$ math? I myself support Miyasi's approach, that while math is applicable to the real world, you rarely encounter actual math in it. I don't know what's weirder, finding yourself in agreement with a Black sister or referring to her as if she were a real person. Probably the latter, though.

 

Miyasi's not real?

 

Not really. Kath antagonised me via email, so she gets some Luckers venom.

 

READ MY STUFF WOMAN!

 

 

 

 

 

Does anyone else feel bad for me that my venom is mathematical? *sigh*

 

Mathematics? My only weakness! How did you know???

 

You told me, darling.

 

 

[Jeangray]

Eldrene was all the way up in the Mountains of Mist when she used her weave to kill Dreadlords that were supposedly present at the battle of Emond's Field.

 

So? It seems that she somehow removed a buffer from sa'angreal and overdosed on OP to do it, too. Rand or his followers wouldn't need to go to such extremes to get Graendal at a shorter range. And he/they could tune it to her FS mark, the one thing that distinguishes her from her slaves.

 

In any case, as Graendal couldn't even set traps to defend herself without provoking dire retribution from her superiors, I see no reason for her to stay put with the Dragon's gateway within a line of sight of her base. It goes against her own stated intentions. 

[Luckers]

So? It seems that she somehow removed a buffer from sa'angreal and overdosed on OP to do it, too.

 

No, she simply OD'd on the Power. She had no sa'angreal.

[Lilbaz]

Why can people not let go? She is dead. The whole point of the way she was killed was to show how ruthless Rand head become and not feel anything about it. There are no story arc regarding her left unfinished. She is as dead as  a dead mouse being eaten by a cat that's on fire in a sunken ship at the bottom of the Ocean, live with it.