Prove to me Graendal is alive

[JenniferL]

Use ONLY the text. No meta gaming like "Sanderson hasn't confirmed it, so she must be alive!" He won't confirm that Mat is going to the Tower of Ghenji in TofM and it's right on the cover. And it doesn't matter if she went down like a punk or not. Sammael did and he's still dead. If you can come up with a cogent reason why, you might get a credit in the WOT FAQ.

 

 

Annnd....Go!

[Ashaman Kovan]

What have you done?!?!

[darth_hel]

Personally, I don't think it can be proven one way or the other at this point, but Luckers seemed to put together the reasons why it's possible really well in this thread http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,59183.0.html and defended it pretty well from anyone trying to pick it apart.  

[Tollieman]

Until the author confirms it, or the books state implicitly that she is dead, then there is no proof to be had.

[JenniferL]

The books do say she's dead. The Compulsion on Ramshalan is gone.

[Tollieman]

The books do say she's dead. The Compulsion on Ramshalan is gone.

 

One does NOT prove the other. Yes, the compulsion is gone.

And? That proves the compulsion is gone.

 

Btw, I think (hope) she's dead. Otherwise Rand's awesomeness is diminished. I loved his Mordeth-like behaviour there!

[Nightstrike]

Nynaeve said there was something different with the compulsion weave that was laid upon him. Why was there something different with it? Graendal is probably handy with all kinds of weaves (and especially compulsion), so it might unravel upon probing.

 

What reason is there for expecting her to have foreseen what was about to happen? I don't know, but she has fought with the One Power for a long time. All Forsaken are probably paranoid in the extreme.

 

(No real proof. But...)

[JenniferL]

Do you have a quote for Nynaeve? Just the right chapter is good enough.

[Nightstrike]

Oh, I remembered it as more pronounced than this. Maybe I exaggerated a bit. I didn't mean to. Sorry.

A Force of Light:

"Yes. Rand, he's under a heavy Compulsion. There are a lot of weaves here. Not as bad as the chandler's apprentice, or maybe just more subtle."

[Morsker]

Of the various things Luckers mentions, the strongest to me is that Rand stupidly blabbed half his plan in front of Ramshalan. So Graendel would've known that Rand had found her, and wanted to kill her, and wanted a way to confirm her death.

[Wantanswers]

The books do say she's dead. The Compulsion on Ramshalan is gone.

The book doesn't say Greandal is dead. The book says that the DR is convinced she is dead.

 

Do you have a quote for Nynaeve? Just the right chapter is good enough.

Originally posted by RJ/BS

Nynaeve walked over to Ramshalan and looked at himfor a moment.She hissed and said, "Yes. Rand , he is under a heavy Compusion. There are a lot of weaves here. Not aa bad as the chandler's apprentice, or may be just more subtile."

 

(Tgs, A Force of Light, page 572. English Edition)

[JenniferL]

Thanks guys. This is very helpful. Anymore ideas? Feel free to discuss them too. And as always, exact quotes and chapter numbers (don't sweat pages, those vary between editions) are very helpful.

[lews reborn]

I really hope she is!!! But saying that Rand said it himself she was smarter then him. would it have been possible that Nyn would of felt a gateway opening at that distance?? If she would of felt it then she must be dead how else could she escape that amount of balefire.

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

Graendal's death or life is, at this point, unproven and unprovable.  As water_seeker said in the other Graendal thread, "Graendal is Schrodinger's cat."  The analogy isn't quite precise, but it is close enough to work.

[algspkr]

I really hope she is!!! But saying that Rand said it himself she was smarter then him. would it have been possible that Nyn would of felt a gateway opening at that distance?? If she would of felt it then she must be dead how else could she escape that amount of balefire.

 

I'm sure that if she had the foresight to Travel away she also had the foresight to use a reversed gateway.

[Luckers]

You'll not find proof Kath. This is a theory only. You have my full work over on the FAQ board, but if your looking for a summation.

 

The theory contests that it is peculiar Graendal did not attempt to flee--after all Rand told his intentions to Ramshalan--specifically that he was looking for a way to kill Graendal before she could run away, and in a manner that left him proof of her death--and Ramshalan's repeated recolection of the way Rand summoned him and sent him would have made clear the attack was likely iminent--so why did Graendal simply provide Rand with exactly what he wanted and go quietly into that good night? Why didn't she gate away the instant Ramshalan revealed the danger?

 

The answer to this (under the theory) would be that from Ramshalan's comments she was able to deduce the nature of Rand's attack, and decided that instead of simply fleeing she would leave Rand the proof of her death that he so desired (enabling her to continue on safely with the Light thinking her dead).

 

So the question becomes, could she reliably predict Rand's attack, and figure out a way to fake her death through it.

 

She knew Rand's requirements. Kill her before she could run. Provide proof. The two do spell the answer--balefire could kill her before she could run, and she knew that he would expect her to compel Ramshalan. That compulsion--a recent piece of her work--would provide the proof he needed should she be balefired. She'd have reason to suspect balefire anyway, both in that Rand had used it before, and in that Moridin may have informed her that Rand now knew that it was the only way to kill the Forsaken, and once she found balefire she'd be able to deduce the proof-test.

 

From there there are several ways she could have faked the compulsion test and escaped.

 

 

 

So that's it in a nutshell. I went into far more detail on the FAQ board, but the simple sequence is Graendal knew Rand's requirements, which would allow her to predict his attack. It is extremely odd that, knowing those requirements, she simply fulfilled them without any thought, and whilst that doesn't infer she'd guess his specific plan, it should have meant she'd do something other than what she did, which is to say die. That she did not do one of the other options (say flee immediately) does suggest she guessed his specific plan, and turned it back on him, thereby escaping alive.

[Vermillion]

You'll not find proof Kath. This is a theory only. You have my full work over on the FAQ board, but if your looking for a summation.

 

The theory contests that it is peculiar Graendal did not attempt to flee--after all Rand told his intentions to Ramshalan--specifically that he was looking for a way to kill Graendal before she could run away, and in a manner that left him proof of her death--and Ramshalan's repeated recolection of the way Rand summoned him and sent him would have made clear the attack was likely iminent--so why did Graendal simply provide Rand with exactly what he wanted and go quietly into that good night? Why didn't she gate away the instant Ramshalan revealed the danger?

 

The answer to this (under the theory) would be that from Ramshalan's comments she was able to deduce the nature of Rand's attack, and decided that instead of simply fleeing she would leave Rand the proof of her death that he so desired (enabling her to continue on safely with the Light thinking her dead).

 

So the question becomes, could she reliably predict Rand's attack, and figure out a way to fake her death through it.

 

She knew Rand's requirements. Kill her before she could run. Provide proof. The two do spell the answer--balefire could kill her before she could run, and she knew that he would expect her to compel Ramshalan. That compulsion--a recent piece of her work--would provide the proof he needed should she be balefired. She'd have reason to suspect balefire anyway, both in that Rand had used it before, and in that Moridin may have informed her that Rand now knew that it was the only way to kill the Forsaken, and once she found balefire she'd be able to deduce the proof-test.

 

From there there are several ways she could have faked the compulsion test and escaped.

 

 

 

So that's it in a nutshell. I went into far more detail on the FAQ board, but the simple sequence is Graendal knew Rand's requirements, which would allow her to predict his attack. It is extremely odd that, knowing those requirements, she simply fulfilled them without any thought, and whilst that doesn't infer she'd guess his specific plan, it should have meant she'd do something other than what she did, which is to say die. That she did not do one of the other options (say flee immediately) does suggest she guessed his specific plan, and turned it back on him, thereby escaping alive.

 

It's possible but I would hope not.  Even assume that he would use balefire, I don't think she would assume he would use CK nuke of a balefire blast killing anyone inside.  It's just not Rand's MO at that point.  He is a guy who remembers the names of dead woman and walks battlefields to find them. 

 

The most likely scenario is that she sent him back compulsed to be cute.  Assumed that he was trying to lure her out or make her run into a trap but she would out smart him.  Then bam punch to the face.

 

To me it's like assuming that you are going to a personal grudge with knives and guns.  The other person is not down to fight and you know it.  Instead of rushing the house, you drops a Mother of All Bombs on the house killing anyone inside innocent or not once confirmed. 

 

To me it's too far reaching to assume that Rand is assumed he is going to nuke.  There is no fear of immediate danger if he's not nuking.  She could just gate at the first sign of trouble.  I could accept that she was never there at all and a proxie channeler was there. The problem Graendal seemed to be a loner and liked and audience of devoted slaves.  She was a total hedonist.

[Tollieman]

It's possible but I would hope not.  Even assume that he would use balefire, I don't think she would assume he would use CK nuke of a balefire blast killing anyone inside.  It's just not Rand's MO at that point.  He is a guy who remembers the names of dead woman and walks battlefields to find them.

 

Not at that point he was. At that point, he was basically (quietly) insane and FULLY in the mindframe to nuke the the place.

[Vermillion]

It's possible but I would hope not.  Even assume that he would use balefire, I don't think she would assume he would use CK nuke of a balefire blast killing anyone inside.  It's just not Rand's MO at that point.  He is a guy who remembers the names of dead woman and walks battlefields to find them.

 

Not at that point he was. At that point, he was basically (quietly) insane and FULLY in the mindframe to nuke the the place.

 

He had just cracked really.  His ability to sense the true power came after he assumed the darker void when he cracked hurting Min.  After that the DO seemed to be tempting him or his link to Moridin was allowing him to have access.  He had been insane for sometime according to the logic that he was hearing voices for a long time.

 

Nobody knew how far he had cracked though.  The people close to him knew something was dark about him but not that he was gone that far.  Nyn was in shock and she was someone who he felt he could keep close. 

[Tollieman]

Okay fine; he was finally insane enough to consider and balefire the fortress (with women in it). How do we know this? Because he balefired the fortress  ;D. Whether he had just cracked (fully) or not is irrelevant.

 

Nyn was shocked, because it was a shocking, terrifying, crushingly ruthless thing to do. Something Rand hadn't had the madness (guts, balls hehehe) to do before.

 

Or am I misunderstanding you?

[MikeRiley]

The forsaken fail to Rand all through the books because they do not understand how he works. Yes, they take for granted that he won't kill women, but balefiring an entire fortress is something they would consider doing themselves if the need arised, so they would consider that is something he might do as well.

 

It can't even be proven that it was Graendel that used compulsion on Ramshalan, so how can we prove or disprove that Graendel is dead because the compulsion disappeared?

[Suttree]

The forsaken fail to Rand all through the books because they do not understand how he works. Yes, they take for granted that he won't kill women, but balefiring an entire fortress is something they would consider doing themselves if the need arised, so they would consider that is something he might do as well.

 

It can't even be proven that it was Graendel that used compulsion on Ramshalan, so how can we prove or disprove that Graendel is dead because the compulsion disappeared?

 

"Yes. Rand, he's under a heavy Compulsion. There are a lot of weaves here. Not as bad as the chandler's apprentice, or maybe just more subtle."

 

How many people in this age have that kind of skill with compulsion though?

[farthammer]

List of people who know where Graendal is hiding:  Moridin, Moghedien, Cyndane, Shaidar Haran, then Rand.  That's a lot of people who could use her location against her, she knows this, and she definitely wants to rise above all the other Forsaken.  It's not clear how much freedom Cyndane and Moghedien have to move against her, but taking out Moridin might net her those mindtraps for herself.

 

1: "Then tell me this: How do I outthink an enemy I know is smarter than I am?"

2: "I wish that were true," Rand said softly. "I face some of the most crafty people who have ever lived. My

current foe understands the minds of others in a way that I cannot hope to match. So how do I defeat her?

She will vanish the moment I threaten her, running to one of a dozen other refuges she is sure to have set

up. She won't fight me head-on, yet if I destroy her fortress in a surprise attack, I risk letting her slip away

and never knowing if I've finished her."

3: "I have to peer into her eyes, see into her soul, and know that it's her that I

face and not some decoy. I have to do that without frightening her into running. How? How can I kill a

foe who is more clever than myself, a foe who is impossible to surprise, yet who is also unwilling to

confront me?"

4: But I am still intrigued by the first comment you made.

You said I need allies who are smarter than I am, and that is true. It is time for you to be off, then."

5: "Too many of the Domani bloodborn are hiding,

scattered through the country. I would have them as my allies, but it would be a drain on my time to seek

each one in person. Fortunately, I have you to go on my behalf."

 

So she might very well have died, but if we shift the assumption away from that being Rand's only intention, the statements he delivered to her might look like this from her POV:

 

1: "Then tell me this: How do I outthink an enemy I know is smarter than I am?"

2: "I face some of the most crafty people [Forsaken] who have ever lived. You understand the minds of other Forsaken in a way that I cannot hope to match. So how do I defeat them?

They will vanish the moment I threaten them, running to one of a dozen other refuges they are sure to have set

up. They won't fight me head-on, yet if I destroy their base of power in a surprise attack, I risk letting them slip away

and never knowing if I've finished them."

3: "I have to peer into their eyes, see into their souls, and know that it's them that I

face and not some decoy. I have to do that without frightening them into running. How? How can I kill a

foe who is more clever than myself, a foe who is impossible to surprise, yet who is also unwilling to

confront me?"

4: "I need allies who are smarter than I am, and that is true." <=> We both want all the other Forsaken eliminated.

5: "Too many of the Forsaken are hiding,

scattered through the world. I would have them dead, but it would be a drain on my time to seek

each one in person. Fortunately, I have you to go on my behalf."

 

He then demonstrates he has the most powerful sa`angreal in the world and nothing is no longer off limits.  Provided she did escape, she has a window of opportunity where the rest of the Forsaken believe she is dead by balefire.  She definitely has the ability to outsmart the other Forsaken, she knows more about them than Rand does, and could easily begin pointing them out one by one by falsifying deeds based on their quirks.  Something like Sammael's original intention of being the last man standing as a result of a truce.

 

Idiot, Min thought. If your enemy is that crafty and ruthless, an alliance will only end with an assassin's dagger in

your back.

 

Rand pretty clearly no longer cared.

[Vermillion]

Okay fine; he was finally insane enough to consider and balefire the fortress (with women in it). How do we know this? Because he balefired the fortress  ;D. Whether he had just cracked (fully) or not is irrelevant.

 

Nyn was shocked, because it was a shocking, terrifying, crushingly ruthless thing to do. Something Rand hadn't had the madness (guts, balls hehehe) to do before.

 

Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

My point is that he was already assumed to be somewhat insane but he still wasn't a mass murderer.  His bottoming out was something recent.

 

As shown by the series the Forsaken are human and should be underestimated lol. I just don't see how she could know Rands current temperature out in the middle of nowhere and people around him don't quiet gauge what's going on and how long has Nyn known him?

 

So essentially she needs to know Rand has taken steps beyond being hearing voices that people who deal with and known him all his life don't know.  She then needs know his plan on nuking her and using complusion as a test.  Then she needs to know and exotic weave that disapates right on time and know Rand is going to nuke right then and not come back later.  Then she had to know that there was someone there to tell he had compulsion with him considering nobody knew how to do it except LTT who taught Nyn on the light side.

 

I just don't buy it as a spur of the moment plan to a lord of Rands coming to visit her randomly.  From what I remember he didn't even tell him his plan just random stuff to an idiot so he thought he was talking to some random lord/lady on his behalf, knowing Graendal liked to get lords. 

[farthammer]

If she already knew he was on the road to insanity, it's not a matter of her needing up to the minute information on where his head is currently at.  She'd either knowingly risk he hadn't completely lost it or not.