What's In The Future For Graendal?

[Sharaman]

Elayne tries unpicking a weave for her gate and accidentally ends up convincing the Seanchan that AS have a super-weapon because it blows up. In that conversation, Avi tells her that the WOs start learning small with easy little weaves. Dangerous as it is, unpicking a weave can therefore be learnt, though even Moridin is zapped at her doing it.

 

Reading residues is, according to AS, both during Aviendha's unpicking at the Tarasin Palace, and also when they send sisters to check out the Shadar Logoth cleansing, a rather rare talent. AS are often ignorant about OP but we've never seen Nyn try to read residues and it's obviously not taught by AS to all and sundry.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Morsker]

Being able to reconstruct entire weaves from residues is the rare talent. We don't know how rare the ability is simply to detect residue. It could be universal, or it could be as rare as the talent.

[Paerish Swar]

First,

I suspect your struggling to understand how I could sustain two mutually exclusive ideas. You stated that you "tried (have fun with that word if you will) to set out some of the points that convince me that Graendal is dead", but that is not what you actually did. You attempted to dismiss the 'Graendal lives' theory.

 

I fall on the side of the Graendal died theory--that what ocurred happened as it seemed to. But that doesn't require that I first dismiss the Graendal Lives theory. I can't. It would be fallacious to do so because the logic of that theory is solid.

 

You want absolutes, and there are none. You side with a theory and demand the other not exist, and that is impossible. If it were possible than there would simply be a fact, and thus no discussion.

 

please don't presume to know my thoughts.

 

Second, my first two posts in this thread were mostly about the points that I felt made a stronger argument for my belief that Graendal is dead.  Yes I did address my feelings on some of the points of the opposing position, but that's what you do in a debate.

 

Third, the fact that I am attempting to address what I believe to be inconsistencies or assumptions in the opposing position shows that I have not dismissed the theory, but that I am trying to analyze it and understand it.  If I try to discount a specific point, it is because I found it to be insufficient for some reason.

 

Fourth, I am interested in what we can and can not know from the evidence presented in the text.  That does not mean I am looking for absolutes, just that I am looking for sound interpretations of evidence.  Some points in the Graendal Lives theory are more sound than others, and some points are just plain conjecture and fanciful thinking, having little to no evidential support from the text.

 

Lastly,

 

My premise: Graendal percieved Rand's intention, and fled, leaving him false-proof of her death.

 

Evidence:-

 

1. Ramshalan informed Graendal that Rand desired to kill her before she could flee (i.e. that death fell before confrontation was realised) and that as a pre-requisit of killing her it would have to leave proof of her death.

 

2. Graendal, thus knowing the results he desired from this attack, therefore had reason to suspect he would use balefire because...

i) The methodology of what Rand wanted suggests balefire in that it would--

i) a) kill her before a fight was realised, and thus before she fled.

i) b) would undo a work of hers should it hit her thereby providing the proof Rand required.

ii) It was an obvious weapone.

iii) Rand had utilized it on Forsaken before.

iv) Moridin had just informed Rand that balefire was the only way to truly kill Forsaken, and may have passed that information along.

 

3. The connection to balefire made, the source of post-balefire proof of death Rand would seek becomes clear as compulsion because...

a) it is her signature move, and therefore the most obvious piece of work for Rand to look at.

b) it is the only piece of work she has recently done which Rand may easily judge.

c) Rand sent Ramshalan as a precursor for the attack, therefore it would be obvious that he was intended to serve the purposes outlied in Rand's list of requirements for the result of the attack--to prove her presense, and later to prove her death.

 

don't presume to know what is in Graendal's mind, either.

 

We should look at everything Rand said to Ramshalan.  He laid a number of false trails that no one has addressed.

 

The statements:

 

1. "My current foe understands the minds of others in a way that I cannot hope to match.  So how do I defeat her?"

2. "She will vanish the moment I threaten her, running to one of a dozen other refuges she is sure to have set up."

3. "She won't fight me head-on, yet if I destroy her fortress in a surprise attack, I risk letting her slip away and never knowing if I've finished her."

4. I have to peer into her eyes, see into her soul, and know that it's her that I face and not some decoy.  

5. "I have to do that without frightening her into running."

6. "How?  How can I kill a foe who is more clever than myself, a foe who is impossible to surprise, yet who is also unwilling to confront me?"

7. "An excelent suggestion, Ramshalan.  Perhaps I've already done just that." (responding to Ramshalan's suggestion that the "best course of action is to request the aid of someone more clever.")

8. "Another excellent suggestion, but I am still intrigued by the first comment you made.  You said I need allies who are smarter than I am, and that is true.  It is time for you to be off, then." (responding to Ramshalan's suggestion that "anyone that powerful would make a better friend than foe.")

9. "Too many of the Domani bloodborn are hiding . . . I would have them as my allies . . . you will find a hill leading down to an ancient palace . . . it is the first of many places I shall send you . . . see if they are willing to support me . . . offer them rewards of allegiance."

 

Possible interpretations:

 

a. he first speaks of how to defeat her, not how to kill her.  What does that mean?  Does he mean to kill her or to do something else?

b. Ramshalan's very presence at Natrin's Barrow is a threat to Graendal, so Rand's comment could mean that he expects her to bolt.  But it also suggests that if he was able to find Graendal's hideaway at Natrin's Barrow, he may have also figured out some of her other common haunts.  Might he be trying to flush her out and force her into a trap?

c. So he has contemplated attacking the palace, but doesn't think that he can rely on its success.  He wants evidence.

d. Again, he wants sure evidence that he is facing Graendal.  But this statement makes not mention of killing her, just knowing that it's her he is confronting.

e. Again a taunt about her running.

f. Kill, surprise, and confront.  He asks, "How?"  This statement almost makes it seem like he isn't sure that it is even possible.

g. Does he really like the suggestion that he needs to be aided by people more clever than himself?

h. Why does he appear to dismiss the idea of making an alliance with Graendal?

i. To then tell Ramshalan that he does want the inhabitant of Natrin's barrow as an ally?

 

So as far as I'm concerned, there are 4 major plans that Rand could be contemplating from the statements that he gives.

 

First, that he is trying to flush her out of Natrin's Barrow and send her Traveling to one of her other haunts where he has people, most likely linked circles of men and women, waiting to capture or kill her.

 

Second, that he is planning a surprise attack and expects Graendal's contact with Ramshalan to give him the evidence he needs to know she is finished in some way (the compulsion - balefire interaction, though there are certainly other ways she could have expected him to find that evidence he wanted without BFing the WHOLE palace).

 

Thirdly, that he doesn't intend on killing her at all.  I know this may seem strange, but he learned from Asmodean (Graendal knows this), has accepted "help" from Lanfear (she knows this too), and has captured and possibly extracted information from Semirhage (she knows at least half of this).  The talk of allies and being aided by people "smarter" than him (which Rand admits that Graendal qualifies for) might mean that Rand intends to capture her and use her in some way.  (Payback, maybe?  He wants to do to an agent of the Shadow what they tried to do to him?)

 

Fourthly, that he really just wants her to get the hell out of Arad Domon.  He has accepted that he won't be able to kill her right now, but he is desperately trying to pull Arad Domon back together, and Graendal is the biggest stumbling block in his way.  If she is run off, then he can at least unify the Domani bloodborn and begin to stabilize the nation.

 

 

 

Now, we know what Rands true intentions were, but where is the evidence that Graendal was able to deduce it?  And we know that Rand expected Graendal to extract every word of his conversation with Ramshalan, so why would he even mention a "foe" in the first place?  Others have pointed out that Rand could have just sent Ramshalan out to other people as his emissary first with the stated intent of bringing together all the Domani nobility to stabilize Arad Domon, and then when Ramshalan went to Natrin's Barrow Rand would make his ultimate move in absolute secrecy.

 

Everything Rand said he wanted Graendal to hear, so he must have said it all for a reason.  Or he made a huge mistake that he had absolutely no reason to make.  No reason at all.

 

Which is it?

 

I think he understood Graendal enough that he made the conscious decision to go about it in the way that he did.  Just my opinion.  

 

 

As long as your looking at this in terms of absolutes you are going to be dissapointed. That Graendal Lives and That Graendal Died are both theories with logical consistancy, and no proof one way or the other.

 

I am not looking for absolutes, just solid interpretations of evidence.  This is difficult for both sides of the argument, because, as you said, there is no proof one way or the other.  But I do not agree with you that the Graendal Lives theory has that much logical consistency, because most of it is not based on evidence.  Much of it is based simply on what could be possible.  All sorts of stuff is possible, and some of it may even be pretty likely.  But some of the arguments for how Graendal managed to stay alive are such a stretch as to be laughable, having little to no substance beyond the fact that theoretically, if we use our imaginations, they might, maybe be possible.

 

I've already addressed the "weave that was set to unravel once it was delved" theory.  I think I made a good point against that based on Ramshalan's behavior after being delved.

 

The "MoM decoy" and "other channeler" theories have just as much evidence as my hypothetical "Moggy did it" theory.

 

The "inverted thread that she pulled when she saw the palace destroyed" theory could only be possible if she walked away from the palace, because if she Traveled away, the thread would be broken before Ramshalan even got to Rand.  (unless she left the gateway open, I guess.  Dangerous, but possible.)

 

Loosely knotting the web to unravel over a specific time is obviously problematic.  

 

 

OK, I'm almost finished.  One last little bit for now.

 

Face value, or fill in the blank?  Neither are even close to perfect.

 

What blanks have been filled in? Filling implies the insertion of that which is not present, and that is not what has occurred. Looking at the rough materials and connecting the dots, is more what has ocurred.

 

Incidentally, for all that I believe at this point that she did die, I do not reguard our positions on that as equal. The insistance of face value equating truth is a fallacious argument.

 

I never said anything about "face value equating truth."  I was commenting on the two theories and how neither of them are close to perfect.  I said we can take it on face value, or we can try to fill in the couple hour gap with conjecture.  Again, this goes to the idea of what we can and can not know based on the evidence we have.  I think the Graendal Lives theory requires a lot of leaps and guesswork.  Some of the guesswork is extremely well reasoned, but it is still guesswork.

 

Also . . .

 

hypothesizing that Graendal was able to accurately deduce Rands intentions and his methods of enacting them is not connecting a dot.

 

Hypothesizing that, since there's some time unaccounted for, that the Compulsion could have unraveled without Nynaeve noticing is not connecting a dot.

 

etc, etc.

 

Dots have to have evidence that they exist to be connected.  Otherwise you are just developing a narrative out of stuff that you imagine could be possible.  This is conjecture - some of which, I admit, has a strong point or two, but most of which is just guesswork.

 

Now, there's not anything inherently wrong with that, I guess.  But I'm just not buying it as a basis for the theory.  If we get more evidence I could totally change my mind about Graendal.

 

Until then . . . I'm on the side who thinks she's dead.  I believe it's the most likely case.  

[water_seeker]

Graendal is Schrodinger's cat.

 

"This leaves no residue...the residue of a weave this large* might be read two days from now"..."That is a rare Talent, girl.  Neither Teslyn nor Joline has it.  Or do you aiel wilders all learn that as well"..."few can do it...but I can...do you claim that none of the Shadowsouled can...are you such fools that you would leave tracks for your enemies to follow?  Any who could read the residues** could make a gateway to this spot."

 

*Size matters...the compulsion might be complex, but the weave is small.  From the text it seems that the smaller the weave the faster the residue fades.

 

**This line (for me anyway) reads like this:  "only a few people can read residues, if our enemies can then we'd best cover our tracks." It doesn't (for me anyway) have a feel of "anyone could read this if they come by here."

[Luckers]

Until then . . . I'm on the side who thinks she's dead.  I believe it's the most likely case. 

 

That's fine. Me too.

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

Fourth, I am interested in what we can and can not know from the evidence presented in the text.  That does not mean I am looking for absolutes, just that I am looking for sound interpretations of evidence.  Some points in the Graendal Lives theory are more sound than others, and some points are just plain conjecture and fanciful thinking, having little to no evidential support from the text.

 

But the entire scene was based on Rands plan, Rand who has a) been wrong many times, and b) is acting like Ishamael. Only Dark Rand could consider killing hundreds of people to get to one of them, he isnt thinking about the consequences. What if Graendal held someone he knew, or needed? What if he was wrong, that it wasnt even Graendal, what if it was another female channeler darkfriend trying to attach a string to him? Rand thinks, that because he is inheriting Lews Therins knowledge of the One Power rules and undercurrents, he thinks he knows everything. Graendal though, is the man when to comes to Compulsion. One thing I do think she will have anticipated is that Rand would have a female channeler with him-or be told by Ramshalan-and possibly set up the first weave for that purpose, devised a plan to get around a female channeler who most likely wouldnt know what Graendal does about Compulsion. Thus fooling Rand through fooling the female channeler. I wonder what Rands reaction would be, wonder if he would blame Nynaeve if it hadnt worked.

 

Does he even know about inverted weaves?

 

The fact that we didnt see Graendal at all is the whole reason this discussion is taking place. The only fanciful thing about this entire discussion is the assumption that Graendal MUST have anticipated Rands frame of mind in order to have contemplated escape. Even after all the hype of her avoiding confrontation that came from Rand in that very scene, even after all the Forsaken PoVs that depict a rapidly increasing understanding of Rand kicking their asses the second he finds them. Of course, Semirhage is the exception, but thats kind of... set aside, if you will... by Rand asking how to KILL someone infinitely clever and evasive, not CAPTURE.

[Paerish Swar]

Only Dark Rand could consider killing hundreds of people to get to one of them, he isnt thinking about the consequences. What if Graendal held someone he knew, or needed? What if he was wrong, that it wasnt even Graendal, what if it was another female channeler darkfriend trying to attach a string to him? Rand thinks, that because he is inheriting Lews Therins knowledge of the One Power rules and undercurrents, he thinks he knows everything.

 

I'm glad you said that.

 

See, I had a thought yesterday about unintended consequences and ta'veren, relating to this.

 

Graendal was ordered by Moridin to bring Rand "pain of heart."  I believe Luckers' suggestion that she might, then, go after Elayne is a great one (especially since she's pregnant - three for the price of one, right).  Now, this is complete wishful thinking on my part, but it would be a great use of parallelism if. . .

 

Graendal had set in motion a plot to kill Elayne that morning, a plot that was almost impossible to stop and sure to succeed.  But because Rand BFed Graendal to the degree he did (if he did manage to  ;)) he unintentionally saved his lady's and his children's lives.

 

That would be an amazing scene to see in ToM!  Elayne is caught in some kind of trap or attack, she is sure to die, she can't even touch the Source to protect herself (blasted pregnancy!), and then - at the last moment when she has almost given up - the world seems to warp around her, churning her insides about.  And the threat just . . . disappeared.  She's left standing in her bath chamber . . . alone.

 

The parallelism would be that Rand, if this were the case, would have saved each one of his lady's lives by balefire - Aviendha saved from Rahvin's lightning, Min saved from Semirhage's torture, and Elayne saved from Graendal's machinations.  All because of balefire - and probably a bit of ta'veren luck.

 

Anyway, that's just something I think would be cool.  It could justify a little of what went down at "the Barrow" and would require some pretty cool scenes with Graendal in the next book to set up.

 

Maybe, right?

 

Oh, I don't know.  :)

[Sharaman]

One little detail that is maybe worth adding to this whole argument.

One way Graendal could fake her death and "solve" the timing problem, (which is probably ruled out):

She could have gone invisible, followed Ramshalam, and released the compulsion as the castle was nuked.

But Nynaeve's ter'angreal would issue a warning about a channeler using saidar in the vicinity. 

It seems to work even beyond line of sight, on inverted weaves, given the Semi capture.

The counter-argument is that the ter'angreal was already signalling saidar use due to the compulsion itself and Nyn would have ignored it.

The counter-counter-argument is that if Nyn's ter'angreal can log the Compulsion, she would also have an exact timing for the end of the Compulsion.

 

Ultimately the Balefire test proves nothing. You have enough logic to support either Granedal is alive/ dead theory.

In terms of narrative arc, both RJ and Brandon are good enough to write a convincing follow through to either alternative.

It's a RAFO.

 

[farthammer]

Did they even check Ramshalan before he was even sent that day? 

[Demiandre]

No, Ramshalam has been delved only when he came back from Natrin's barrow. But I wonder uf Ramshalam could have been compelled before he went there. I will have to search for hints at that.

 

@shamaran

 

Indeed, Graendal could have been holding her weave till the end, and then releasing her weave, and so invaliding the proof Rand wanted. I think the cluster of ter'angreal Nynaeve has with her can't detect a weave. I think it detect channeling, not what has been channeled. And one of Cad's ter'angreal can disupt flows. If Nyn has in her paralis net a similar ter'angreal, it could have disrupt Ramshalan Compulsion (not sure about it, though).

 

But for Graendal to maintain the flows of Compulsion, she would have had to be always in sight of Ramshalan, thus going out with him, and risking beeing spotted by Rand's party. I don't think someone discribing herself as extremely prudent, and said to strike always when wise as well as plotting very carefully would have done that...

[OptimusPrime]

Random thought.

 

Elayne was able to duplicate weaves so that when she bonded Rand, Min got her own bond to Rand as well, even though Min of course cant channel.

 

What if Graendal placed the duplicating weave on, say, Ramshalan and one of her pets? She then Compels the pet, which is duplicated automatically onto Ramshalan? Then she works the commands accordingly, be it they get seperate commands, or both the same, if the latter was the case she could bind the Compelled pet with the Power, tell it to go talk to Rand. Ramshalan obeys the command either way, goes to Rand under the duplicated Compulsion, all the while Graendal thinks "Ive done enough, by the time they figure it out Im through five gateways if I want" and the key is that when Rand balefires the palace, the pet with the weave that sent the Compulsion to Ramshalan dies before Graendal did the duplicating weave. Ramshalan loses the Comulsion, Graendal is halfway across the continent, showing up on Moridins doorstep.

[bubbified]

She could be dead, or she could be alive.  We weren't given enough.  The writers by this point have enough online chatter between books from us to actually just do a little calculation to determine which plot ends would spawn the most reader interest/stimulation and they'd probably tailor most of their big/medium question marks to meet those plot ends.  I think I detect some changes in this last book that are a direct result from fan chatter.

 

It's just like that scene in that book I just read.  The clever protagonist was up against a cleverer antagonist.  The moment the protagonist had the idea to do so, he stormed on up and threw a cleverly direct assault right at the antagonist.  The antogonist, knew she had plenty of time to respond to the assault, and therefor, refined a set of responses and picked one that was both the most unpredictable and elusive, and the one that was most likely to save her skin.

 

Pretty much both the writer and antagonist were the defender, but were given ample time to trick almost any opponent using a response that was so random, its only components were that it throw their opponents off guard that it saves their neck and packs a punch in return if it can.  Only the the most lucky will defeat that defense...

[OptimusPrime]

She could be dead, or she could be alive.  We weren't given enough.  The writers by this point have enough online chatter between books from us to actually just do a little calculation to determine which plot ends would spawn the most reader interest/stimulation and they'd probably tailor most of their big/medium question marks to meet those plot ends.  I think I detect some changes in this last book that are a direct result from fan chatter.

 

It's just like that scene in that book I just read.  The clever protagonist was up against a cleverer antagonist.  The moment the protagonist had the idea to do so, he stormed on up and threw a cleverly direct assault right at the antagonist.  The antogonist, knew she had plenty of time to respond to the assault, and therefor, refined a set of responses and picked one that was both the most unpredictable and elusive, and the one that was most likely to save her skin.

 

Pretty much both the writer and antagonist were the defender, but were given ample time to trick almost any opponent using a response that was so random, its only components were that it throw their opponents off guard that it saves their neck and packs a punch in return if it can.  Only the the most lucky will defeat that defense...

 

Exactly. And when Graendals defense is let Rand think shes playing a game using Compulsion, shes got as good a hand as there is to be had, and she knows it. She fooled Rand by exploiting any female channeler he would have with hims' not-as-good-as-her-own understanding of Compulsion.

[Thor]

[Comments removed. Play nice.]

 

I wouldn't be surprised if those who support graendal being alive are the same sort of people who thought sammuel was alive or that sheriam was not a darkfriend.

[OptimusPrime]

Anyways keep bickering with your nonsense if you want. Your refusal to believe that anybody can read residue and that graendal simply is not skilled enough to unravel a weave is far beyond my comprehension.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if those who support graendal being alive are the same sort of people who thought sammuel was alive or that sheriam was not a darkfriend.

 

Lol, I didnt think Sammael survived, but I didnt know if Sheriam was Black. Who cares? Graendal died off camera, and we have her death "proved" by a personality amalgamated from Rands poor judgement tinted with Ishamael moodswinging. I rest my case.

[Demiandre]

Thor, I always said that Graendal can unravel weaves. But we don't know if she can unweave it. It needs practice, and she wouldn't have had enough time to learn, given the difficulty of it and the dangerosity if you fail. And a residue is a remnant of a weave, like a thread of Fire, and Reading Residue is determining what a lot of Spirit with a touch of Fire is left as a Residue was meant for. By reading residue of a Gateway, you could make another to the exact same location, as does Rand when following Sammael to Shadar Logoth. Very few Channelers can do so. But all can sense that saidin or saidar has been used. But they won't know for what unless they can read those residue.

 

What is beyong your comprehension is the vdifference between unravelling and unweaving, and residues and Reading Residues.

 

I didn't thought that Sammael was alive, and, at a certain point, certain that Sheriam was Black Ajah. And we had proof for Sheriam, which we don't have one way or the other regarding Graendal's liveliness

[Charlz Guybon]

 

 

Graendal was ordered by Moridin to bring Rand "pain of heart."  I believe Luckers' suggestion that she might, then, go after Elayne is a great one (especially since she's pregnant - three for the price of one, right).  Now, this is complete wishful thinking on my part, but it would be a great use of parallelism if. . .

 

Graendal had set in motion a plot to kill Elayne that morning, a plot that was almost impossible to stop and sure to succeed.  But because Rand BFed Graendal to the degree he did (if he did manage to  ;)) he unintentionally saved his lady's and his children's lives.

 

That would be an amazing scene to see in ToM!  Elayne is caught in some kind of trap or attack, she is sure to die, she can't even touch the Source to protect herself (blasted pregnancy!), and then - at the last moment when she has almost given up - the world seems to warp around her, churning her insides about.  And the threat just . . . disappeared.  She's left standing in her bath chamber . . . alone.

 

The parallelism would be that Rand, if this were the case, would have saved each one of his lady's lives by balefire - Aviendha saved from Rahvin's lightning, Min saved from Semirhage's torture, and Elayne saved from Graendal's machinations.  All because of balefire - and probably a bit of ta'veren luck.

 

Anyway, that's just something I think would be cool.  It could justify a little of what went down at "the Barrow" and would require some pretty cool scenes with Graendal in the next book to set up.

 

Maybe, right?

 

Oh, I don't know.  :)

I really don't think RJ is much into justification though, seems more likely that he'd have Graendal escape the trap just to make the point that Rand's darkness was in vain.

[Fains nose]

Mate, thats a fu**ing awesome idea, the stuff that some of you guys come up with is more entertaining than some of the stuff in the actual books

[yoniy0]

I especially liked the part where Elayne's left standing alone in her bath chamber. It does seem as if a lot of action goes down there, doesn't it? :)

[bubbified]

Bath chambers are like the porn scenes of these books.  Sexy, but not as dirty.

[Demiandre]

Well, I don't remember any chapter involving Elayne taking a bath, but however heard of it a lot on the forums. I tried to find them, but every reread, I don't. So I came to believe my brain unconsciously save me from some kind of danger. It's a phisiological reaction against it, maybe...

 

So to come back to the current topic, away from all conversation about unravelling and unweaving and compulsion, blablabla, what Graendal could have done before her presumably death, or after for the one believing she is still alive, that will suit the order of Moridin to increase chaos and make Rand feel of pain. It is probable, like the above theorie about Elayne. If I remember well, there isn't any such situation where Rand feels pain in Arad Doman who could have been the action of Graendal. So she set her plans for future damages. We could object that Rand balefiring the palace caused him pain, but I'm not sure. So something else, and to make someone suffer,  you attack his relatives. So another point at Elayne, or Aviendha. We saw her go to the desert safely till she passes the gateway. I think there is a moment where Rand feels jou through his bond with Elayne. So strong he could feel it in Arad Doman. Could this not be something caused by Graendal?

[yoniy0]

If I remember well, there isn't any such situation where Rand feels pain in Arad Doman who could have been the action of Graendal.

Well, she certainly followed the first part of Moridin's orders, to make sure Rand isn't allowed to bring order back to Arad Doman. But that only brought him frustration and maybe desperation, not anguish. So, yeah, I agree.

[FarShainMael]

Well, I don't remember any chapter involving Elayne taking a bath, but however heard of it a lot on the forums. I tried to find them, but every reread, I don't. So I came to believe my brain unconsciously save me from some kind of danger. It's a phisiological reaction against it, maybe...

 

I think the chapter in question is CoT Ch12:

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/cot/ch12.html

 

Elayne and Aviendha take baths while Birgitte gives her reports, and then 3 Sea Folk interrupt them.

 

I hardly noticed this on my first read-through, but then it wouldn't have quite the same significance for me as for most of the forum members...  :P

 

[Red Hand Man]

Ok, over in the Kathana started thread about the same schtuff, farthammer had a great point.  It went along the lines of (Reply #22 - http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,59300.12.html):  "Ramshalan is just a messenger for Rand to Graendal.  Side with me and help me find the others or I'm going to kill you until you die from it"

 

What farthammer didn't continue with was going into what Ramshalan said to Rand when he returned:

 

"I say," Ramshalan said, "my Lord Dragon, what is going on?  The lady of the castle down there was quite friendly - she is an ally, my Lord.  You have nothing to fear from her!  Very refined, I must say."

 

Graendal extracts Rand's conversation, knows what he "plans" to do and sends Car Ramrod back with that exact response letting him know that she has agreed to what is essentially a demand.

 

Thoughts?

[Demiandre]

It could be that Graendal wanted to say Rand "I won't attack you, don't be afraid"...

 

It's like a mouse handing a cup of milk to a cat, hoping it won't be eaten in my book...

 

And the link to farthammer's post, I don't agree with. The shift between Graendal and the Forsaken in Rand's discusion with Ramshalan is improbable, although it is possible to interpret it this way. However, thinking Graendal understood this I don't believe it. But it could explain why she put that answer in Ramshalan.

 

But if he came back saying, "oh, my Lord, she just passed away a week ago!" With compulsioncall over his brain, it would have had the same result. Whatever Ramshalan said, as soon as Nyn delved him, she was trapped. Except if she fled beforehand...