Prince of the Ravens?

[Cirin]

I mentioned this on the post about the Seanchan in the Structured Board, but I think honestly the reason that this form of slavery exists with people who can channel is because of fear more than anything - in a world where some have great power and others do not, you either have to let those who have great power lead, find a way to enslave them, or create a society in which there is harmony between the two (like in the Age of Legends).  I think that in the books we see two sides at play - the main continent, where channelers run the show (in practice, if not in theory), and the Seanchan Empire, where channelers are slaves.  It's opposite sides to the question "How do we deal with the fact that these people can blow us up with their minds and mind-control us?"

 

Not saying that the damane is a good thing, and I actually wouldn't be surprised if it did go away, at least to a degree - whether the Seanchan deciding the Oath Rod is good enough, or just not interfering with marath'damane, or even if the One Power just disappears.  If the One Power does survive the Last Battle, though, I could see it becoming the punishment for Black Ajah and the like, since Severing can now be healed, and the Oath Rod circumvented.  I can see how the practice of damane got started though.

 

As for Mat commanding the armies - he's the Prince of Ravens, but the army won't listen to him unless a) they meet him while out of contact with the Empress (like Tylee was when working with Perrin), and don't have a clearly defined duty, or b) Tuon tells them to.  Ultimately the Ever Victorious Army answers to the Empress first.

[Majsju]

I think that in the books we see two sides at play - the main continent, where channelers run the show (in practice, if not in theory), and the Seanchan Empire, where channelers are slaves.  It's opposite sides to the question "How do we deal with the fact that these people can blow us up with their minds and mind-control us?"

 

 

 

That is somewhat incorrect, as the Aes Sedai does not really run the show, not even in practice. They have great influence, but that is quite a different thing from actually being in control, which we have seen over and over again.

 

However, we do know of a place where channelers really run the show - Shara. Granted, it is from behind the scenes, but they are in full control. At least until recently.

 

So it would be more correct to put the main continent somewhere in the middle.

 

 

As for only women being allowed to ascend to the throne, I wonder if that is an official rule, or if every empress have just made sure that it happens. What makes me uncertain is KOD ch9, where Tuon mentions having had a sister and a brother assassinated. Why kill her brother if he is not a threat?

[DocBean]

The problem with the Damane issue is all the Trainers can channel too.

 

They just don't know it yet. So once Randlanders point that fact out to them, then they'll realize that the way they're doing things won't work in the future.

Especially since the Emperess herself can channel.

 

What will Fortuona do when she realizes she can channel? In the past we've seen trainers ask for the leash.

Which might fulfill the prophecy of her handing Rand a collar and bracelet; however, I can't imagine she'll want a man like Rand to leash her.

She might realize that what they are doing is trusting all of their channeling women to other women who can channel; cutting their channeling ability as a society in half.

They've been allowing channeling women freedom and elite status for centuries – kind of goes against everything they believe.

 

They're not able to link with the leash either. So for them to have a great impact in the last battle the leashes have to go away.

 

 

[Majsju]

 

 

What will Fortuona do when she realizes she can channel? In the past we've seen trainers ask for the leash.

 

 

She already knows. She thinks that her decision to not channel, even though she is able to, makes all the difference.

[Cirin]

If anything happens to Pips, I wonder if Mat will ride on a grolm?  Then he could ride a six-legged mount into battle!

[wvlr2]

the last emperor went insane, its been women since. personnally I believe its cause the royal family is full of potential channellers, and sitting on the throne sparks it somehow, thats why the last emperor went insane, but he didnt know how to really channel so he couldnt do any damage.

 

what I am curious about is whether this is the first time in seanchan history that the whole royal family has been exterminated (except for one) and if its not then their claim to being decended from Luthair is a complete lie

 

I don't think that this is exactly true.    In Tuon's POVs she does not discard her brothers as competition for the throne.

 

Another Question:

 

In KoD Mat is told that he is the "Prince of Ravins".

 

but in TGS (After she learns that the rest of her family is dead) Tuon thinks of him as the "First Prince of Ravins".

 

That is before she actually takes the Throne.

 

So will his title change again now?

 

Also:    Does this earn him a "Name Change?" if so can he take the name of "Mat" & force her to stop calling him Matrium?

[Cirin]

I don't think he can force Tuon to do anything, nor do I think he would if he could.  As for other names, I idly wondered about that myself.  She was Daughter of the Nine Moons when they married, now she is Empress.  But, who knows?  As for the "First" Prince of Ravens, it's likely just because he is her first husband - they mention "I think" that the Empress can marry more - although the damane's prophecy that Tuon was following indicated that she would marry no other.

[Charlz Guybon]

If anything happens to Pips, I wonder if Mat will ride on a grolm?  Then he could ride a six-legged mount into battle!

Grolm have four legs, Torm are the six legged lizard cats.

[Cirin]

If anything happens to Pips, I wonder if Mat will ride on a grolm?  Then he could ride a six-legged mount into battle!

Grolm have four legs, Torm are the six legged lizard cats.

 

Ah, thanks!  I was wondering about that when I typed, but figured someone would correct me if I was mistaken!  ;D

[yoniy0]

I think most people in this day and age are disgusted by human slavery.

What I find weird is that no one seems to care about the enslavement of non-channelers, i.e. the da'coval. Their lots are as low as the damane, but nobody's trying to help them (nor did I read anyone defending their right to freedom on the forums, so I guess we don't care about them, too).

 

well even the WT's training of women reminds me of slavery

 

1) if you dont follow very strict rules your beaten

2) you cannot leave a small area of land

3) your forced to wear one colour (does help break someone down)

4) your forced to do tedious and back breaking work

5) they control who your around

That's actually more akin to army service. Even in our individual-focused society, personal freedoms are sometimes forfeited in favor of the interest of the collective.

[Sharaman]

Westlanders have a problem with Da'covale - nobody in the West keeps slaves.

Do you mean nobody on the forum cares?

 

[yoniy0]

Oh, I wasn't serious about that, I understand why damane make for a better discussion topic (seeing as how the practice will likely influence the way the Last Battle is fought).

But more to the point, the characters themselves make a lot more fuss over damane than they do da'coval. Settle argued the former point endlessly with Tuon, but there's no mention of the latter making it into one of their 'discussions'. I just think the real problem with Seanchan culture is that they're used to viewing other people as their property; leashing channelers is just another symptom of that.

[Tom Sawyer]

Pretty much everything about the Seanchan Empire is despicable, but the damane are just the most egregious example of it.  Nobody in the series has been personally affected by da'coval in the same way that they've been affected by the damane, so that's the one being focused on by them.

 

Also, there's an inherent bigotry in the notion of damane that has parallels to people's experiences in the real world which isn't present in da'coval - at least not to the same extent.  If you're born a certain way, you are the equivalent of an animal and don't deserve any of the rights or considerations which are due to fellow humans.  This creates a visceral reaction of disgust to people for very good reasons and rightly makes them very emotional when discussing it.  There's just not the same black/gay/hispanic parallels with da'coval and they can be viewed as a simple fictional notion as opposed to a notion which is all too reminiscent of real things to many people.

 

[wvlr2]

 

Agreed, plus many of the da'coval are guilty of a Seanchan crime of some sort.    Although failure of a mission when you are not the leader and refusal to take the oath is just silly.

 

But, when it comes to Channeling they are extreemely hipocritical.    Channeling is bad - except when you do it by proxy - for us(Seanchan).

 

P.S.    You left out American Indians.  Moved from good land to very poor land (called reservations), not allowed to practice their original culture, not allowed to manage their own affairs and treaties broken repeatedly.

[Val Mickey]

Regarding damane : Doesn't the Karaethon cycle say Rand will break chains of some sort?

[Canis Rufus]

I get the impression that the crystal throne is much like the "punishing chair" we saw used in the WT.  Only it likly accesses you inner ablity to use the power to gift the leader with some insite.  It would fit that the ones sent away and told to wait would have some method of being told to return.  Also i really think Rand will put Tuon in a collar to show her what she is doing.  That approch will searve two roles the lesson of collaring is bad and to show Rand on the moral high ground, something the seachan will need if they are to follow him.  (This assumption based off the fact that RJ has barrowed heavily from ancient Asian culture for this society.)    

[Tom Sawyer]

Regarding damane : Doesn't the Karaethon cycle say Rand will break chains of some sort?

 

Yes.  I believe that line was first mentioned in The Great Hunt just after the damane were introduced, and I've always read it as tying it to them.  The Seanchan have a role to play in the fight against the DO and they're not going to do it with a bunch of broken slaves in their army - or if they do, it'll be so lame that that one thing would pretty much ruin the entire series.

[Tom Sawyer]

 

P.S.     You left out American Indians.   Moved from good land to very poor land (called reservations), not allowed to practice their original culture, not allowed to manage their own affairs and treaties broken repeatedly.

 

Yes, unfortunately, the real world doesn't lack for examples.

[Durinax]

 

P.S.    You left out American Indians.  Moved from good land to very poor land (called reservations), not allowed to practice their original culture, not allowed to manage their own affairs and treaties broken repeatedly.

 

Yes, unfortunately, the real world doesn't lack for examples.

thats a light example too, look at the aztecs incans or other mesoamericans. Both the aztec and incans had huge wealth, strong armies and where destroyed, had their huge cities torn down, and all their people sold into slavery

[Tom Sawyer]

 

thats a light example too, look at the aztecs incans or other mesoamericans. Both the aztec and incans had huge wealth, strong armies and where destroyed, had their huge cities torn down, and all their people sold into slavery

 

Ya, but by real world examples, I mean things which affect people today.  The racism and bigotry which is encapsulted in the damane is something which many readers can personally relate to, which explains the more visceral reaction of disgust towards them over other things in the series.

 

Things that the Aztecs and Incans did are interesting historical factoids and that's about it.  People would say that they object to the actions if asked to take a stand on them, but there's rarely any kind of emotional reaction to them one way or the other in the same way that there is to currently have a personal effect to either them or someone whom they know, like the ideas behind why damane are damane do.

 

[Val Mickey]

Yes.  I believe that line was first mentioned in The Great Hunt just after the damane were introduced, and I've always read it as tying it to them.

 

I don't get it - tying is the same as breaking?  Or is the prophecy tied to damane. No offense, Tom. The line was from TSR, but I'll search through TGH.

 

 

But more to the point, the characters themselves make a lot more fuss over damane than they do da'coval. Settle argued the former point endlessly with Tuon, but there's no mention of the latter making it into one of their 'discussions'.

 

Actually Setalle does argue against keeping da'covale, and Tuon reminisces that she made Setalle concede a few points, and with effort could make her see straight.

 

If you're born a certain way, you are the equivalent of an animal and don't deserve any of the rights or considerations which are due to fellow humans.  This creates a visceral reaction of disgust to people for very good reasons and rightly makes them very emotional when discussing it.  There's just not the same black/gay/hispanic parallels with da'coval and they can be viewed as a simple fictional notion as opposed to a notion which is all too reminiscent of real things to many people.

 

Have you heard of the caste system in India? And the lowest of them who were considered worse than animals and had less rights than a dog and were not even included in the caste system. Again no offense, Tom. Try finding the origin of the word 'pariah'.

 

Which 'casts' a bleak future for the da'covale, I'm afraid. :D

 

This is all going afield from Mat :)

[Tom Sawyer]

 

 

If you're born a certain way, you are the equivalent of an animal and don't deserve any of the rights or considerations which are due to fellow humans.  This creates a visceral reaction of disgust to people for very good reasons and rightly makes them very emotional when discussing it.  There's just not the same black/gay/hispanic parallels with da'coval and they can be viewed as a simple fictional notion as opposed to a notion which is all too reminiscent of real things to many people.

 

Have you heard of the caste system in India? And the lowest of them who were considered worse than animals and had less rights than a dog and were not even included in the caste system. Again no offense, Tom. Try finding the origin of the word 'pariah'.

 

Well then, maybe Indian readers of the series would have a more visceral reaction to the da'coval than they would to the damane, since they'd be able to make a real world connection between them and the deprivations of the caste system.  Given that this is a forum for Western readers of the series, that really wouldn't be the case, as few of us have any experience with the caste system in order to make those connections.

 

The fact that connections are possible isn't the point, it's whether or not people are actually making them.  Based on my own views and how I've seen the same thing expressed by others, the emotional reaction to the rescist connotations of the damane system are much more powerful than emotional reactions to any other group in the series.

[Val Mickey]

This is a forum for Western readers?

 

No African American parallels to da'covale?

 

No racist connotations to the da'covale?

 

And does your visceral reaction depend on your familiarity with the crime, not its heinousness?

 

Can we return to Mat? Please?

[Cirin]

Besides, there is still a very large international market in slaves to and from all nationalities and races, including the United States.  Slavery is one of the negative aspects of human interaction, unfortunately, and is present throughout all periods of history.  It isn't always the same depending on your situation throughout history - many educated or skilled people within the Roman empire would volunteer for slavery so that they might have a better financial standing after they were able to buy their freedom, but slaves in the countryside were generally worked to death in relative haste.  How many girls working in night clubs around the world truly want to be working there?

 

Yes, slavery is a despicable practice and hopefully it will be abolished, but I don't know that's its fair to extrapolate from their that every aspect of Seanchan society is abominable.  The enslavement of damane and the strict caste system are negatives (although, like any system, the Caste system seems poor generally only to those at the bottom or looking in from the outside) and the big brother type supervision of the Seekers is disconcerting, but the order that the Seanchan establish is not necessarily a bad thing.  Remember that despite their advancements, this is still a relatively primitive society, and things like crime, vendettas, civil wars and invasions do break out, and make things relatively poor for a good number of the civilians.  That's why the Seanchan are viewed in a relatively positive light by Rand at the end - yes, the slavery of damane is bad, the da'covaele system in perhaps in need of some attention, but the order that they have brought is making the actual PEOPLE of the realm (who can't channel, obviously) rather happy.  They are respected, given fair judicial treatment, and the laws are maintained for them as well as for any Seanchan.  In a society like the one presented in the Wheel of Time, that's saying quite a bit.

 

I'm not trying to defend the Seanchan really, but I do think that it's dangerous to simply condemn cultures that exist in worlds or universes that our not our own.  Outside the realm of the real, things become more complicated.  Of course we view slavery as bad, but if suddenly 3% of our population were given the ability to teleport, use Compulsion, make the earth explode, and literally reshape the face of the world, killing hundreds of thousands in the process, we may change our tunes, and it would likely take a lot to convince us that those people were in fact afforded the same rights as us, or that they should give us the same rights they feel entitled too.  That's where I think the whole damane conflict is played out in the Wheel of Time.  Is the ability to channel a blessing, or a curse?  How do different societies interpret it?  I think that's the driving rational behind it more than race comparisons, although it's easy to see why races that have experienced subjugation in the past because of their race can draw strong parallels.

 

Who knows, though, maybe Robert Jordan just wanted the Seanchan to seem like jerks, so he gave them chained channelers.  :P

 

Returning to Matrim, yes.  Matrim is cool!  He is the bloody Prince of Ravens!

[Tom Sawyer]

 

And does your visceral reaction depend on your familiarity with the crime, not its heinousness?

 

 

It depends on your view of the heinousness of the crime.

 

And yes, we can get back to Mat.  WTF is up with his taste in women?  I mean Tuon?  Seriously?  At least Faile was cool back when Perrin fell in love with her.  Tuon's always sucked.