mat fighting with the seanchan

[michael1941]

do any of you think mat will ever lead another campaign against the seanchan before tarmon gai'don?

[MikeRiley]

I think he will before and after the Last Battle. His wife has a throne to win back.

[jemron]

I think he's more likely to lead the Seanchan into the Tarmon Gai'don.

 

I don't seem him battling the Seanchan much anymore, I think they are about to finally join the right side and realize that Rand is in-fact the leader and needs to be followed, not collared or stopped.  This epiphany will likely come soon (in ToM for sure) and I don't think Mat will fight in a battle against many more Seanchan before that happens.

 

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I would imagine so.  Rand hasn't bound the nine moons to his service yet and that bit about him breaking chains I always figured referred to the damane.

 

I hope Mat doesn't help his wife win her throne back, mainly because he'd probably succeed and she's a horrific ruler of a horrific empire that the world is better off without.  I just think that she's an extremely poorly written character and every scene with her is like fingernails on a chalkboard.  Honestly, Mat gets Tuon and Perrin gets Faile - WTF is up with RJ screwing over his cool characters with annoying women?

[jemron]

They're "strong" women.  Not "annoying."

 

Well, ok, I do think they are highly annoying, but a good man is always backed by a strong willed woman, IMO.  I'm not saying I like RJ's women characters, but I do think that if Mat and Perrin just got groupies following them around... woman who just did whatever they ta'veren boys wanted them too, then they would seem even more lame than the current lot of women in the books.

 

Whether we like the women characters in the books or not, you gotta hand to RJ for making the tensions between the sexes become such a point of discussion. 

[Cirin]

I actually don't mind Tuon actually... not sure why.  I think because despite all her issues (like the whole damane thing), she's actually fairly open minded when you consider her background.  She's the Empress of Seanchan, a nation that has been collaring damane for centuries.  The Whitecloaks (at least before Galad took over, anyway) are around uncollared channelers all the time, and STILL have the same vantage point (I know, I know, that doesn't excuse the Seanchan).  When you compare how Tuon acts compared to some other Seanchan, I know there are still issues, but all in all I think RJ already made some concessions by making her a little more tolerant, etc. than the Daughter of the Nine Moons of the Seanchan Royal Family probably would be under non-ta'veren type circumstances.

 

Really, though, not sure why I like her better than others.  Maybe because she IS the Empress, etc. but is still willing to be surprised by people like Mat and their worth, as opposed to some farm girls who continuously seem to know better than all the important people they meet.  Don't really like Faile, though.  Who knows, maybe it's just because Tuon is with Mat, and Faile is with Perrin.

 

As for Mat fighting the Seanchan... it's possible, although I think the Seanchan will hesitate to go up against the Band of the Red Hand after this... not only because they saw him mow down ten thousand men and he has beaten them at every turn, but also because they'll likely recognize them as the Prince of the Ravens army.  I honestly see his role as more of a mediator, albeit an unintentional one on his part.

[Duskfire]

I would imagine so.  Rand hasn't bound the nine moons to his service yet and that bit about him breaking chains I always figured referred to the damane.

 

I hope Mat doesn't help his wife win her throne back, mainly because he'd probably succeed and she's a horrific ruler of a horrific empire that the world is better off without.  I just think that she's an extremely poorly written character and every scene with her is like fingernails on a chalkboard.  Honestly, Mat gets Tuon and Perrin gets Faile - WTF is up with RJ screwing over his cool characters with annoying women?

 

How is she a horrible ruler? Her thoughts are a product of her up bringing, not neccessarily her fault. But you just look at the way she treats Beslan to see she would be an awesome ruler, at least to me anyway. She is harsh but fair; can't ask for much else. But then again, I love Tuon as a character so thats where we obviously differ :P

 

I don't think Mat will fight the Seanchan again, until probably after TG as someone else pointed out when he helps Tuon stablise the Seachan continent.

[Tom Sawyer]

They're "strong" women.  Not "annoying."

 

Well, ok, I do think they are highly annoying, but a good man is always backed by a strong willed woman, IMO.  I'm not saying I like RJ's women characters, but I do think that if Mat and Perrin just got groupies following them around... woman who just did whatever they ta'veren boys wanted them too, then they would seem even more lame than the current lot of women in the books.

 

Whether we like the women characters in the books or not, you gotta hand to RJ for making the tensions between the sexes become such a point of discussion. 

 

No, it's their annoyingness that I don't like, not their strength.  I like strong women and I'm a particular fan of Nynaeve and Elayne in these books.  Tuon and Faile just bug the shit out of me, though.  It's possible to be a strong woman without being an annoying bitch and those two just haven't pulled it off.

 

I get what the authors are trying to do with the characters, but I just don't think it's worked out in such a way to give them personalities that could be classified as "strong" instead of "annoying".

 

[MikeRiley]

It helps if you look at it like Robert Jordan was trying to discourage marriage. At least to crazy people.

[jemron]

Haha!

[Rootbeer]

Psssssssh!

Wouldn't trying to kill the Prince of Ravens lower their eyes?

On a more serious note, it's very likely that Mat would have to fight Seanchan soon, but I hold firm to the whimsical belief that his army would save them instead, from trollocs perhaps, and earn the respect of the entire court. Though crushing them under the heel of his boots have a lovely ring to it too.

 

In regards to the current discussion, I don't think Robert Jordan is very good at creating a sympathetic female character for us to root for. At least in my opinion, but for the record, I like Tuon's character.

[DemandredFO]

Switch the genders and consider our own world at the 15th or 16th century might not have been sympathetic males at that time.

[Rootbeer]

Switch the genders and consider our own world at the 15th or 16th century might not have been sympathetic males at that time.

But they're main characters. Not your run-of-the-mill regular joe you couldn't care less about.

Besides, both sexes, more or less, enjoy equality with each other in this world so it shouldn't matter. You can't blame the era for them being unlikable, arrogant pricks.

 

The only glaring exception are channelers, but that is entirely understandable if you looked at their history.

[Hadilmir]

But they're main characters. Not your run-of-the-mill regular joe you couldn't care less about.

Besides, both sexes, more or less, enjoy equality with each other in this world so it shouldn't matter. You can't blame the era for them being unlikable, arrogant pricks.

 

The only glaring exception are channelers, but that is entirely understandable if you looked at their history.

First, I can't stand rootbeer, so bear with me. Second, yes, you can blame the era. I have no clue where you got the idea that a person's raising isn't important to their views or personality. Third, what does being a main character have to do with personality. If Perrin had just met Faile and married someone else, would Faile be in any way different personality-wise??

[Rootbeer]

But they're main characters. Not your run-of-the-mill regular joe you couldn't care less about.

Besides, both sexes, more or less, enjoy equality with each other in this world so it shouldn't matter. You can't blame the era for them being unlikable, arrogant pricks.

 

The only glaring exception are channelers, but that is entirely understandable if you looked at their history.

First, I can't stand rootbeer, so bear with me. Second, yes, you can blame the era. I have no clue where you got the idea that a person's raising isn't important to their views or personality. Third, what does being a main character have to do with personality. If Perrin had just met Faile and married someone else, would Faile be in any way different personality-wise??

Because we're supposed to like them, since they are the main characters. We're supposed to sympathize with them. They're supposed to invoke certain feelings from us that we can't expect from minor characters who only had a page or two in their POV.

We are supposed to care about them.

 

Instead, we have arrogant, stubborn, irrational bullies whom I, along with some fans, hope they'll meet their end in an extremely painful and gruesome way.

Does that shout main character material to you?

I'm sure Egwene would make an excellent Forsaken.

 

Note: Regarding your root beer comment... You're crazy!  ;D

 

Edit: Let me elaborate.

 

True, you can blame a person's traits on the environment they are raised in, but since the world enjoy equality between both sexes, you can't say it's okay for them to be who they are by blaming it on the era! They aren't suited for being main characters imo because it's hard to sympathize with a bully, which is what most main female cast are, if not all.

 

If Perrin had married someone else and then met Falie, then her personality won't change. It shouldn't. But perhaps, it'll just make the story a lot better than read about now than she has been demoted to a secondary, or even minor character.

You see what I'm implying?

[Paladin]

Random question.

 

Since Mat is now married to Fortuona does that mean he is High Blood and needs a Skinhead haircut?

[Aquarius]

Random question.

 

Since Mat is now married to Fortuona does that mean he is High Blood and needs a Skinhead haircut?

Yes.

 

Tuon comments on his haircut somewhere, waying he would have to shave or something (in her thoughts, in her own PoV, I think, not out loud).

He is Prince of the Ravens and as High Blood as you can get without actually be emperor.

[Mr Ares]

But they're main characters. Not your run-of-the-mill regular joe you couldn't care less about.

Besides, both sexes, more or less, enjoy equality with each other in this world so it shouldn't matter. You can't blame the era for them being unlikable, arrogant pricks.

 

The only glaring exception are channelers, but that is entirely understandable if you looked at their history.

First, I can't stand rootbeer, so bear with me. Second, yes, you can blame the era. I have no clue where you got the idea that a person's raising isn't important to their views or personality. Third, what does being a main character have to do with personality. If Perrin had just met Faile and married someone else, would Faile be in any way different personality-wise??

Because we're supposed to like them, since they are the main characters. We're supposed to sympathize with them.

That doesn't automatically follow. Main character and person you're supposed to like and sympathise with are not always the same thing.

They're supposed to invoke certain feelings from us that we can't expect from minor characters who only had a page or two in their POV.

Well, they certainly invoke certain feelings.

 

Instead, we have arrogant, stubborn, irrational bullies whom I, along with some fans, hope they'll meet their end in an extremely painful and gruesome way.

Does that shout main character material to you?

Sure, why not? Rand fits at least three of those words (arrogant, stubborn and irrational). I've taken the liberty of highlighting the important point there. Some fans. The female characters seem to be more divisive than the men, at least on the internet. But all of them have their fans and detractors. To what extent the one outweighs the other is hard to judge, as there could just be some really vocal haters and a quiet majority of likers.

[Cirin]

Random question.

 

Since Mat is now married to Fortuona does that mean he is High Blood and needs a Skinhead haircut?

Yes.

 

Tuon comments on his haircut somewhere, waying he would have to shave or something (in her thoughts, in her own PoV, I think, not out loud).

He is Prince of the Ravens and as High Blood as you can get without actually be emperor.

 

Although she also comments that the thought of that makes her sad for some reason, or something along those lines.  Technically he's "supposed" to, according to Seanchan custom, yes, but I don't think he will.  If nothing else, they might make an exception for him since he's sort of a big deal.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

Because we're supposed to like them, since they are the main characters. We're supposed to sympathize with them. They're supposed to invoke certain feelings from us that we can't expect from minor characters who only had a page or two in their POV.

We are supposed to care about them.

 

Instead, we have arrogant, stubborn, irrational bullies whom I, along with some fans, hope they'll meet their end in an extremely painful and gruesome way.

Does that shout main character material to you?

I'm sure Egwene would make an excellent Forsaken.

 

Note: Regarding your root beer comment... You're crazy!  ;D

 

Edit: Let me elaborate.

 

True, you can blame a person's traits on the environment they are raised in, but since the world enjoy equality between both sexes, you can't say it's okay for them to be who they are by blaming it on the era! They aren't suited for being main characters imo because it's hard to sympathize with a bully, which is what most main female cast are, if not all.

 

 

George R. R. Martin will be very surprised to here that he's supposed to make main characters sympathetic.

 

Equality of the sexes? What books have you been reading? To paraphrase the feminist movement, The Matriarchy is definitely in charge. The only country where this isn't true is Amadacia.

 

 

[egwenes#1hater]

First, I can't stand rootbeer, so bear with me

 

;D ;D completely agree. ;D ;D

 

George R. R. Martin will be very surprised to here that he's supposed to make main characters sympathetic

 

 

are you implying that his main characters don't evoke sympathy? because they do if you ask me.

 

that being said....i would greatly enjoy seeing Mat hand the Seanchan their rear ends.

[Luther]

If I remember correctly, tuon has asked that mat be brought back to her immediately and her word is final so I could actually see mat finding himself in a no win situation and is forced back.

 

I also don't think we will be seeing any more trollocs tell the final battle, the trollocs that where killed by the seanchen might of been ones fleeing from the 100k so attack from earlyer with rand where he was making those death gates. Mat has always been forced into situations he never wanted to be a part of, I can see this pattern going on tell the end even if it is for better or worse. 

 

Also I think tuon is awesome as hell, and I like Faile also, if you think about it if she wouldn't of been an ass then perrin would of got his way and died, perrin is seriusly week right now and that's why Falie is so uptight with him all the time, I'm really looking forword to the day Perrin grow's some balls and stands up to his fate as the wolf king and a leader.

 

Also note the type of woman Faile is, she's a Saldaean woman just like elias said they are some seriously tough woman that will walk all over you unless you take charge like a Saldaean man.