The Amyrlin's Anger

[StefanR]

Egwene's going to try to walk all over him, she's never acted any other way around him.

 

Even in things not relating to her at all like the whole Rand/Elayne thing

 

""You and she are near-sisters, as you and I are," Aviendha protested, slowing a step before picking it

up again. "Did you not ask me to look after him for her? Do you not want her to have him?"

 

"Of course I do. If he wants her." That was not exactly true. She wanted Elayne to have what

happiness she could, in love with the Dragon Reborn as she was, and she would do everything short of

tying Rand hand and foot to see that Elayne got what she wanted. Maybe not far short, at that, if need

be."

[azrael.1289]

All this talk about Rand and Egwene's confrontation reminds me of this exchange that happened way back in the second book.

"Egwene, if you don’t get off" - he(Rand) lowered his voice ominously - "I’ll do something to you. You know what I am." He added a glare for good measure.

[StringWinder]

Regarding the quotes from Egwene about...the dragons foolishness, and how he shouldn't be allowed to run free.

 

Many people seem to think she shares the AS viewpoint on "handling" Rand. 

 

I took it a completely different way.  She was trying to gain support to be recognized as the true Amyrlin.  I always thought her sympathic AS viewpoint was a manipulation tactic, to gain support.  She doesn't want to chain Rand, or make him bow.

 

Of cource, there are some area's where he has made mistakes, and she will be angry, and he will be like..."Damn, she really is the Amyrlin"  He will know her anger and admit where he has been wrong.

 

And, now that she is recognized as the Amyrlin, and one of strength (at least by the Ajah heads), she will not meet a whole lot of resistance in the tower.  So if she implied she agreed with controlling Rand to any degree, I do not think she meant it...I think she said what she had to to gain support.

 

And Rand will not be dealing with anything new by knowing her anger.  They were practically betrothed so I'm sure he has seen it many times in the past.

[Durinax]

Regarding the quotes from Egwene about...the dragons foolishness, and how he shouldn't be allowed to run free.

 

Many people seem to think she shares the AS viewpoint on "handling" Rand. 

 

I took it a completely different way.  She was trying to gain support to be recognized as the true Amyrlin.  I always thought her sympathic AS viewpoint was a manipulation tactic, to gain support.  She doesn't want to chain Rand, or make him bow.

 

Of cource, there are some area's where he has made mistakes, and she will be angry, and he will be like..."Damn, she really is the Amyrlin"  He will know her anger and admit where he has been wrong.

 

And, now that she is recognized as the Amyrlin, and one of strength (at least by the Ajah heads), she will not meet a whole lot of resistance in the tower.  So if she implied she agreed with controlling Rand to any degree, I do not think she meant it...I think she said what she had to to gain support.

 

And Rand will not be dealing with anything new by knowing her anger.  They were practically betrothed so I'm sure he has seen it many times in the past.

well its one thing to imply something another to explicitely say that he needed to be reigned in and controlled. I took her quite literally, since she is a honest person I believe I dont think she would say those opinions without sharing them

[azrael.1289]

well its one thing to imply something another to explicitely say that he needed to be reigned in and controlled. I took her quite literally, since she is a honest person I believe I dont think she would say those opinions without sharing them

Also in her pov, we're given access to her thoughts too. She doesn't need to think that in her mind to gain ajah support now does she?

[farthammer]

Well up until now she has always been in an apprentice role, or in Salidar someone who was 'set up' by more influential AS.  She is fully responsible for everything the AS are doing now, see how she likes it when there is no one else and no where else to assign blame or make excuses for any failures on her part.  I bet she will reminisce over how easy it used to be when she was just getting spanked.

[DemandredFO]

lest any forget before Egwene said she didn't care in EOTW she flinched from Rand.  And as other posters have said about Egwene saying Rand needs to be controlled.  She can "say" whatever she wants but she doesn't need to lie too herself.  I'm sure more than one leader has started off seeing objective reality and ended in their own worldview

[Dream]

Actually, she can't even say whatever she wants anymore.  She's under Oath.  Anyone who thinks she's on Rand's side is sadly mistaken.  She's going to use Rand, if she can.

[Hadilmir]

Anyone who thinks she's on Rand's side is sadly mistaken.  She's going to use Rand, if she can.

I would say you're sadly mistaken, does that mean that one of us is wrong and one is right? Of course it does, because you didn't state a fact, you stated an opinion as if it were fact. We'll have to wait until ToM to find out.

[Dream]

Anyone who thinks she's on Rand's side is sadly mistaken.  She's going to use Rand, if she can.

I would say you're sadly mistaken, does that mean that one of us is wrong and one is right? Of course it does, because you didn't state a fact, you stated an opinion as if it were fact. We'll have to wait until ToM to find out.

 

Aren't you the one who said she would sit on Rand?  Seems to me that you actually agree with me so we'd both be correct.

[Majsju]

How is any of that different from Rand acting like an Aiel clan chief when he first got to the Waste?  The Amyrlin is as much a politician as anything else, the state of the AS in general was many times worse than any of the annoying aspects to Egwene's personality.  It was hers for the taking because after all, who else?  There was no one.

 

Difference is, rand is a Man, and as such can be allowed to do what he wants. Egwene being a woman should just sit quietly and wait until Rand, or another man tells her what to do.

 

 

[Hadilmir]

Aren't you the one who said she would sit on Rand?  Seems to me that you actually agree with me so we'd both be correct.

Sitting on someone is quite different from manipulating them. I just don't see Egwene trying to use Rand. Argue? Yes, a lot.

 

Majsju, I don't think everyone is going to get the humor. Make sure Emu doesn't read that.

[Majsju]

What makes you think it was humour?

[Skeeve the Great]

I just don't see Egwene trying to use Rand.

 

We've seen Egwene manipulated Mat, Nynaeve, Band of the Red Hand, Suan, Wise Ones, etc. I don't think she considers Rand any different from any of them.

[draconian]

Difference is, rand is a Man, and as such can be allowed to do what he wants. Egwene being a woman should just sit quietly and wait until Rand, or another man tells her what to do.

i dont think any1 here is saying that egwene is less b/c she is a woman and rand is a man but b/c of a more a more important difference: The Dragon is supreme commander of the forces of the light and the chosen one or chosen of the light as well champion of the wheel. the chain of command starts with rand b/c the Creator will take no part. Egwene well is like every1 else be they king queen or commoner which means she is less.

 

do the women of the white tower care that them bending knee fulfills multiple foretellings? no they call it a dirty business even egwene complains and think its compulsion. they always say "the wheel weaves as  the wheel wills" but that doesnt matter when is isnt to there liking.

[Hadilmir]

What makes you think it was humour?

I never said it was humour. Geez, you Brits must have no sense of humor.

 

Skeeve, let me rephrase that, "I don't see Egwene trying to use Rand in a bad way." As Amyrlin, she's in her right to manipulate people, it is a responsibility of those in power. The trick is manipulating people so that everyone wins. So far, she's done very good at that. Has she- betrayed anyone, sent anyone to their deaths, done anything in general that wasn't a good decision in the end? I didn't think so, Egwene's only faults so far has been her hypocrisy and unwillingness to let others do things she thinks she can do better and neither of those show themselves often.

[Majsju]

Hey! Call me a brit one more time and I will have you banned so hard you will not know what hit you ;D

[Majsju]

Difference is, rand is a Man, and as such can be allowed to do what he wants. Egwene being a woman should just sit quietly and wait until Rand, or another man tells her what to do.

i dont think any1 here is saying that egwene is less b/c she is a woman and rand is a man but b/c of a more a more important difference: The Dragon is supreme commander of the forces of the light and the chosen one or chosen of the light as well champion of the wheel. the chain of command starts with rand b/c the Creator will take no part. Egwene well is like every1 else be they king queen or commoner which means she is less.

 

do the women of the white tower care that them bending knee fulfills multiple foretellings? no they call it a dirty business even egwene complains and think its compulsion. they always say "the wheel weaves as  the wheel wills" but that doesnt matter when is isnt to there liking.

 

Thing is, Rand is not supreme commander, and making him that would be a serious mistake. He is simply not qualified, neither from a miltary nor a political aspect. For the military, he might give the command, but the tactics should be made by those who actually are qualified, ie Rhuarc, Bashere and Mat (once Mat finds his way back to Rand). Politically, he needs the White Towers advice and support. (The White Tower, not Egwene personally, as she is not very qualified to run the show on her own either).

*Disclaimer: Rand might have the qualifications now, after Veins of Gold. Depends on whether or not he got complete access to LTTs memories.

 

And keep in mind one of the themes of WOT, strength comes from working together.

 

But Rands lack of qualifications is a lesser problem. The real problem with seeing Rand as a supreme commander is that such a position ties him up. Let the others, those who will be involved in the fighting there, handle randland, so Rand can focus 100% on Shayol Ghul. Look at the poor sod, since Moiraine died he has more and more tried to do everything himself, and look where that brought him. Let the guy rest, and prepare for what is to come.

[Ataxia]

I used to worry about her trying to control him. But will we really be that upset if she yells at him? Is it really that bad if someone raises their voice with him? She may try to use him to get more support somehow, but who cares. All I know is that if she can be there, Egwene will be right at Rand's side, fighting the Dark One, spitting in Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day. I hope shes a fountain of power blasting forsaken left and right.

[Majsju]

I used to worry about her trying to control him. But will we really be that upset if she yells at him? Is it really that bad if someone raises their voice with him? She may try to use him to get more support somehow, but who cares. All I know is that if she can be there, Egwene will be right at Rand's side, fighting the Dark One, spitting in Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day. I hope shes a fountain of power blasting forsaken left and right.

 

Unless Egwene faces Mesaana in the Tower, i strongly doubt we will see her "blasting forsaken left and right". As Amyrlin, she will ost likely not be allowed to get anywhere near where the action is, so she needs the action to find her.

[Ataxia]

Blasting forsaken left and right was just a saying. Change it with shadowspawn if you want. I disagree though. I understand that once you get into combat, you become a regular soldier and stop being a general. However, Im talking about the assault on SG. I think will be there if she can.

[Majsju]

I find it extremely unlikely that Egwene will accompany Rand to SG. ctually, I would not be surprised if nynaeve is the only one of those who left Emonds Field who will actually do that.

granted, I am quite biased in this, since it ties in with one of my major theories of how TG will be fought. But I am convinced I am correct :)

[farthammer]

Besides being Amyrlin TAR is the only notable talent or ability that she has 'mastered', imagine her involvement in TG will revolve around this.

[Hadilmir]

Besides being Amyrlin TAR is the only notable talent or ability that she has 'mastered', imagine her involvement in TG will revolve around this.

And being the most deft weaver of the Supergirls. Actually, Aviendha might take that one, good point.

 

Majsju, I'm insulted. Are you insinuating that I'm too blind to see the banhammer before it hits me? Some idiot saidared a glowing light around it at the beginning of time, the bloody thing's brighter than the average American. On second thought, I may miss it at that.

[draconian]

Thing is, Rand is not supreme commander, and making him that would be a serious mistake. He is simply not qualified, neither from a miltary nor a political aspect. For the military, he might give the command, but the tactics should be made by those who actually are qualified, ie Rhuarc, Bashere and Mat (once Mat finds his way back to Rand). Politically, he needs the White Towers advice and support. (The White Tower, not Egwene personally, as she is not very qualified to run the show on her own either).

*Disclaimer: Rand might have the qualifications now, after Veins of Gold. Depends on whether or not he got complete access to LTTs memories.

 

And keep in mind one of the themes of WOT, strength comes from working together.

 

But Rands lack of qualifications is a lesser problem. The real problem with seeing Rand as a supreme commander is that such a position ties him up. Let the others, those who will be involved in the fighting there, handle randland, so Rand can focus 100% on Shayol Ghul. Look at the poor sod, since Moiraine died he has more and more tried to do everything himself, and look where that brought him. Let the guy rest, and prepare for what is to come.

u r making 2 critical mistakes: 1st as a supreme commander he would delegate like any president(who in the USA is the top dog in the chain of comand and politically chain of command). he has done this both militarily and politically in the past.  when he finds ppl he can trust he delegates nations to them so he can do other things. examples: finding nobles he can trust and putting them in charge of nation. he still doing this in TGS. he has bashere mat and the aiel chiefs come up with battle plans.

 

2nd mistake: working together is great and has show tobe but there must be a chain of command. some1 has to make the choices. it cant be done by voting of a comittee or the choices will become politically driven and slow to a crawl. this is the main reason for much of the early defeats of many of the forsaken. since they r now all under moridin's command thing have been going much better than them dieing left and right.

 

u r right he must be focused on TG but if he and his adviser's develop a plan for TG without a tight chain of command good luck executing it to any degree. who has more knowledge pre or post VoG about the OP and the DO than rand? why does he nd the white tower for politically help when he only has the borderlanders army(who r most likely puppets of the forsaken) and arad domain left to bring to his side or stabilize? maybe in book 5 or 6 they would of been a help uniting the nations but no longer. the white tower lost massive amounts of political power b/c of the spilt.

 

the closest thing we have seen to what i mean is the cleansing where rand decided on x action and every1 support to the best of there abilities. even a bad idea properly done is often less costly than a great plan done poorly.