The Amyrlin's Anger

[seasnake]

I think Perrin may be the key here as he has changed the least and still remembers his roots as a Two Rivers man.  I think Egwene's going to get all Amyrlinish when she meets Rand and feel like she and her sisters have to control Rand so they shield him and try to subdue him, only Perrin steps out of T'A'R into the White Tower and tells her stop this and that she should be ashamed of herself.  Perrin of course saw what was going on in his mind and can now enter the dream world at will like Slayer.  The Wolf King cows the Amyrlin, and Min's prophecy that Perrin would save him twice from Women who can channel is fulfilled.

 

Then Perrin takes his hammer and smacks Gawyn on the butt and Gawyn can't sit for a week.  (okay, so I don't think that will happen, but Gawyn drives me nuts). 

[SuperFade]

At the very least, whatever the outcome, I predict that Egwene will do the following:

 

*Smooth her skirts.

*Sniff loudly (Seriously, WoT women catch an awful lot of colds).

*Call Rand a wool headed fool.

*Raise an eyebrow.

*Say that Rand has a swollen head (Irony, much?).

*All of the above.

[Leonem]

To add a somewhat different look on this: I think Elaida's foretellings are too vague to get too much out of them. Just look at the one we're talking about here:

 

The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds.

 

Well, the WT is whole again, on the surface, but are there only remnants standing aside? I have the impression that many of the AS only grudgingly accept the latest turn of events, and just sit tight hoping something untoward might happen to Egwene. Also, the notion of the WT being stronger than ever? Even stronger than a thousand or two thousand years ago?

 

Then, sisters have walked the BT's grounds, but it seems that the last part might also indicate that the AS will take some part in the fight over the BT.

 

So the know her anger part can be just about anything between Egwene having a fit about Rand coming for an unannounced visit (or being late for an appointment), and a major argument about the Seanchan, the BT, and anything else. And I don't think there is any indication that Egwene will in any way be able to force her will on Rand. I am certain that she will try, for several reasons, but I don't think she will be able to.

[Majsju]

To add a somewhat different look on this: I think Elaida's foretellings are too vague to get too much out of them. Just look at the one we're talking about here:

 

The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds.

 

Well, the WT is whole again, on the surface, but are there only remnants standing aside? I have the impression that many of the AS only grudgingly accept the latest turn of events, and just sit tight hoping something untoward might happen to Egwene. Also, the notion of the WT being stronger than ever? Even stronger than a thousand or two thousand years ago?

 

Then, sisters have walked the BT's grounds, but it seems that the last part might also indicate that the AS will take some part in the fight over the BT.

 

 

 

"Remnants cast out and scorned" should be the BA. While not everyone is happy woth the choice of Egwene, and a great many Aes Sedai having kept out of the conflict completely, they are far from cast out and scorned.

 

As for 'stronger than ever', Egwene have just started, by ending the split, and bringing about 1000 novices to the White Tower. If her plans to tie the Wise Ones, the Kin and the wind finders to the WT, she opens the door for a radical change, one that will greatly benefit the WT in the end.

 

The BT rent in blood and fire seems to point at the coming fight between Logain and Taim. There are currently two delegations of Aes Sedai at the BT, and once Logain shows up, he and "his" Asha'man would have their bonded AS with them. Surely some of them will be alive to walk the grounds once the dust settles.

[jadelollipop]

Egwene has a blind spot about the Seanchan since her experiences in Falme.  She compared the AS swearing fealty to Rand as equivalent of being leashed. Winter's Heart Chapter 26 "I am not trying to  Heal the White Tower just so he can chain Aes Sedai like damane". She is basing this statement on troubling rumors. (Maybe she and Gawyn deserve each other after all)

 

She could be angry at the fact that Rand even met with Tuon. She won't be pleased that Perrin has a truce with them much less that Mat is now of high rank.  She can just get over it though

 

 

[DemandredFO]

I'm biased but I like the idea of Egwene and her sisters hurting rand the second time.  The kidnapping scem was Eliada's but she was manipulated into it.  I like the idea of Egwene freely choosing to put a circle of 13 around Rand because Rand probably figures at the very worst he and Egwene have an armed truce.  Then Perrin shows up somehow and Egwene has her come to Jesus, or whatever name you want, moment and realizes that she has become Eliada.  I doubt it'll happen though.

As regards the post about Perrin being the only one to remember the TR, not so.  Everyone else does Rand, Mat, Nyneave, even Egwene, but they either don't want to go back(Egwene) or would like to but know they cant.  Perrin still hasn't accepted that he can't, Faile is trying to show that to him but he's being a 1st class idiot.

[Majsju]

Regarding the Asha'man bonding Aes sedai, TGS quite clearly shows that since Egwene has learned the truth about what happened, she no longer blames Rand for it, she puts it all on Elaida. So while she is not happy about it, it is not something that will make her snap at Rand. Especially not since Rand offered an equal number of Asha'man to be bonded by Aes Sedai.

 

She also does not think that Rand must be controlled, that is a quite absurd idea considering her POVs in TGS. She thinks rand should be guided, but that is a very different thing. And something she is very correct about.

[SuperFade]

She also does not think that Rand must be controlled, that is a quite absurd idea considering her POVs in TGS. She thinks rand should be guided, but that is a very different thing. And something she is very correct about.

 

You're forgetting that when an Aes Sedai says that she wants to 'guide' someone, she really means control and manipulate. Egwene has already lied by omission to Mat and other close friends, and her POV frequently shows her picking and choosing what truths to tell and what to omit in order to manipulate whoever she's talking to. Does Rand really need this sort of 'guidance'? I find it hard to believe that Egwene knows better than he does.

[farthammer]

Most of these posts assume 'know her anger' means she will be angry at Rand which need not be the case.

[Majsju]

She also does not think that Rand must be controlled, that is a quite absurd idea considering her POVs in TGS. She thinks rand should be guided, but that is a very different thing. And something she is very correct about.

 

You're forgetting that when an Aes Sedai says that she wants to 'guide' someone, she really means control and manipulate. Egwene has already lied by omission to Mat and other close friends, and her POV frequently shows her picking and choosing what truths to tell and what to omit in order to manipulate whoever she's talking to. Does Rand really need this sort of 'guidance'? I find it hard to believe that Egwene knows better than he does.

 

I think you are confusing Egwene with Elaida. While their names start with the same letter, and both held the same title, they are actually two different persons.

As for Egwenes opinion on trying to control (which is a very different thing from guide) Rand, look at her lecturing Elaida on that very thing. Egwene is the one Aes Sedai (except for Moiraine) who actually understands that rand must be allowed quite a bit of freedom to do what he must do. However, he has screwed up enough that it is obvious he needs quite a bit of guidance.

Not from Egwene though, she has never suggested that she would be involved in that. She has a different job to do.

[SuperFade]

I think you are confusing Egwene with Elaida. While their names start with the same letter, and both held the same title, they are actually two different persons.

 

Thanks for being condescending. There's no need to be rude.

 

 

As for Egwenes opinion on trying to control (which is a very different thing from guide) Rand, look at her lecturing Elaida on that very thing.

 

Egwene objected to Elaida physically restraining Rand and pointed out that it would interfere with the prophecies. She has no objection to the idea of controlling people through subtlety and manipulation; see her nutcracking conversation with the sitters. Egwene has already shown in her own POV that she will happily manipulate and lie by omission to even her childhood friends; if she did it to Mat, why not to Rand?

 

 

Egwene is the one Aes Sedai (except for Moiraine) who actually understands that rand must be allowed quite a bit of freedom to do what he must do.

 

Except she has clearly forgotten Moiraine's most important lesson; that one must not try to forcibly influence Rand, either physically or mentally. Like saidar, Moiraine surrendered to Rand and stopped trying to force him into things, thereby gaining a little of his confidance. Egwene doesn't seem to have realised this yet and still thinks typical Aes Sedai tricks will influence him; again, look at her conversation with the White sitters.

 

 

However, he has screwed up enough that it is obvious he needs quite a bit of guidance.

 

I disagree, I think Rand did the best that he could. What with treacherous High Lords and manipulative Aes Sedai screwing up his plans and dealing with the foresaken, on top of going mad from the taint, Rand was doing brilliantly. It only started to go wrong after he got into the mentality that he needed to be harder, which is mostly because of the above stresses on him. For someone who was a farmboy only a year or two earlier, Rand's rulership is incredible.

 

 

Not from Egwene though, she has never suggested that she would be involved in that. She has a different job to do.

 

If not her, then who?

 

[Majsju]

As for Egwenes opinion on trying to control (which is a very different thing from guide) Rand, look at her lecturing Elaida on that very thing.

 

Egwene objected to Elaida physically restraining Rand and pointed out that it would interfere with the prophecies. She has no objection to the idea of controlling people through subtlety and manipulation; see her nutcracking conversation with the sitters. Egwene has already shown in her own POV that she will happily manipulate and lie by omission to even her childhood friends; if she did it to Mat, why not to Rand?

 

Controlling Rand would be the same thing as physically restraining him, Egwenes thoughs and words in TGS makes that very, very clear.

As for "lying through omission", guess what, Everyone does it. That is one of the themes in WOT, noone tells everything they know. Yet somehow it is only a bad thing when women does it, go figure...

 

 

Egwene is the one Aes Sedai (except for Moiraine) who actually understands that rand must be allowed quite a bit of freedom to do what he must do.

 

Except she has clearly forgotten Moiraine's most important lesson; that one must not try to forcibly influence Rand, either physically or mentally. Like saidar, Moiraine surrendered to Rand and stopped trying to force him into things, thereby gaining a little of his confidance. Egwene doesn't seem to have realised this yet and still thinks typical Aes Sedai tricks will influence him; again, look at her conversation with the White sitters.

 

Guidance is a very different thing than trying to "forcibly influence".

 

However, he has screwed up enough that it is obvious he needs quite a bit of guidance.

 

I disagree, I think Rand did the best that he could. What with treacherous High Lords and manipulative Aes Sedai screwing up his plans and dealing with the foresaken, on top of going mad from the taint, Rand was doing brilliantly. It only started to go wrong after he got into the mentality that he needed to be harder, which is mostly because of the above stresses on him. For someone who was a farmboy only a year or two earlier, Rand's rulership is incredible.

 

If the best you can is not good enough, you are in desperate need of guidance. Another theme in WOT: Men and women working together always achieves more than when they work separately.

 

Not from Egwene though, she has never suggested that she would be involved in that. She has a different job to do.

 

If not her, then who?

 

 

Right now, Rand should ask Cadsuane for forgiveness, and ask her to be his advisor again. Not sure how much Egwene knows about Cadsuane being there, or even about who Cadsuane is.

At the end of TOM, we should hopefully see Moiraine taking up her old position.

[DemandredFO]

Now Egwene has Gawyn who irrationally hates Rand for something he didn't even do, what damage will they do together.  My attitude with Egwene(I'm trying to be objective) is that she may think she understand's Rand now but what about in the next book.  She kicked into reverse one too many times; she says the oaths need to go and then she backtracks and says everyone must take the oaths or they're not AS.  Then she's jumping up and down to take the oaths.  She was around Moraine and didn't learn; she was taught be the Wise Ones and apparently forgot everything she learned.  I could go on but it would take forever.

Majsju; axcept that guidance from an AS can be the same thing as control.

[Durinax]

I have a feeling that Egwene is going to fumble badly by doing something to directly control Rand, then Moraine will come into the picture and kick everyones butt until Egwene realizes she is just a kid still, and does not know very much about what needs to happen. The fact she was taught on the successes and failures on previous amyrlins (almost the extent of her tutelage) does not mean she knows anything about the prophecies or what must happen.

 

I cant wait for rand to reveal that he has the knowledge of the dragon and dragon reborns in his head now and show the amyrlin his wrath

[Majsju]

 

Majsju; axcept that guidance from an AS can be the same thing as control.

 

Sure, if you refuse guidance. It is the same as in real life, if someone is willing to listen to advice, there is a great opportunity to reach a conclusion about the proper course of action. The more someone resists listening to advice, the more you must shift from guidance to control, one way or another.

[SuperFade]

Sure, if you refuse guidance. It is the same as in real life, if someone is willing to listen to advice, there is a great opportunity to reach a conclusion about the proper course of action. The more someone resists listening to advice, the more you must shift from guidance to control, one way or another.

 

This is the root of the problem. Aes Sedai don't simply give advice, they attempt to manipulate people into doing what they think is right. Rand himself says it best, that when an Aes Sedai says that she will advise you, what she really means is that she thinks she knows better and will do everything in her power to make you do as she wishes.

 

Moiraine learnt the right way, though at first she tried to control Rand through manipulation. An example would be when she sends Thom away so he won't influence Rand in TSR, thinking to herself that he must rely on her counsel alone. Eventually she learns that being an advisor is simply that; an onlooker who does not always influence events.

[Barid Bel Medar]

While the arguments for control v guidance are correct, and Rand would be benifited by an advisor (Cadsuane and Moiraine are the best for the job) it is the motivation behind Egwene wanting ot guide him that is the problem, she still thinks she can control him, and fully expects to which can only lead to disaster, Rand will resist and distrust AS even more.

Let me point out this quote again

 

The Dragon Reborn should not have been left to run free, but since when has the White Tower been in the business of kidnappingand forcing people to our will? Are we not known as the most subtle and careful of all people? Do we not pride ourselves on being able to make others do as they should, all the while letting them think it was their  idea? Chapter 16: In the White Tower

 

Egwene's motivation for this guidance, sure seems like she wants to control him to me, no matter what words you use, and if she suceeds, she will think that this is the best way to do things, and the AS will not have grown at all, they will be as mistrusted and hated as they were in the beggining.

[Morsker]

 

Majsju; axcept that guidance from an AS can be the same thing as control.

 

Sure, if you refuse guidance. It is the same as in real life, if someone is willing to listen to advice, there is a great opportunity to reach a conclusion about the proper course of action. The more someone resists listening to advice, the more you must shift from guidance to control, one way or another.

 

How isn't that a reductio ad absurdum of the point you're making? It ends with the AS in control 100% of the time no matter what. Besides, "guide" is a synonym for "lead", and for AS it's even the word they use for controlling a circle.

 

Egwene is right insofar as Rand needs help and advice, and that sometimes the advice would be the stern sort Cadsuane is so good at. But Aes Sedai are in no position to offer guidance, because of their terrible reputation. The entire world fears them as imperialists that set up puppet governments. That not only gives Rand cause to distrust them, but it would give the entire world cause to distrust Rand if he were being guided by them. It wouldn't help Rand at all.

 

That said, this can't be what the "Amyrlin's anger" will be about, because it's old and boring. I think we'll see something new, like Egwene being furious at Rand's folly in letting Taim run the Black Tower without supervision. That's probably Rand's biggest mistake, and I'd like to see Egwene call him out on a real mistake, instead of just bickering.

[Leonem]

"Remnants cast out and scorned" should be the BA. While not everyone is happy woth the choice of Egwene, and a great many Aes Sedai having kept out of the conflict completely, they are far from cast out and scorned.

 

The BA that were found out and couldn't flee were stilled and executed, weren't they? And the others would be as well if they were found. So I don't think the foretelling speaks about them. Cast out and scorned is a too weak euphemism for being killed for my taste.

 

As for 'stronger than ever', Egwene have just started, by ending the split, and bringing about 1000 novices to the White Tower. If her plans to tie the Wise Ones, the Kin and the wind finders to the WT, she opens the door for a radical change, one that will greatly benefit the WT in the end.

 

These are her plans, true, but do you actually believe there's even a theoretical chance of the Wise Ones subscribing to that idea? Just the last conversations with Aviendha in TGS tells us otherwise, I think, and rightly so. Egwene might be collecting thousands of novices, but greatness or strength comes more from what AS can do, like buildsing something like the Choedan Kal or Rhuidiean. Do you think the Tower will anytime soon be able to achieve anything like that?

 

The BT rent in blood and fire seems to point at the coming fight between Logain and Taim. There are currently two delegations of Aes Sedai at the BT, and once Logain shows up, he and "his" Asha'man would have their bonded AS with them. Surely some of them will be alive to walk the grounds once the dust settles.

 

I agree about Logain and Taim, and AS have already literally walked the grounds of the BT (even if only as Logains's guests, so to speak). But in the context of a foretelling there should be more to it than just the literal meaning.

 

But I get back to my original point - the foretelling is too vague and not very useful for predictions, IMO.

[Lilbaz]

I always had a feeling that the Amyrlins anger would be to do with Gawyn. No basis in fact but I think it will be stronger than her peeved at how he is running the country and letting sisters be bonded. It could well be an alliance with the seanchean that would send her over the edge or all of the above.

 

Please, please, please let Rand kick Gawyns arse.

[Rootbeer]

The term, Amyrlin's anger, has always bothered me to no ends.

With some luck, and  a lot of hope, the whole thing will end with Egwene's head exploding like in one of those old looney toons cartoon. And immediately afterward, everyone breaking into a stunning dance number with the song "Ding-dong! The Witch is Dead!"

 

Then again, with this series being what it is, and Min's vision thrown in, not to mention WT's animosity with BT, it'll probably end with everyone realizing that working together is a lot better than blowing the crud out of each other while their enemies point and laugh.

 

I doubt it'll end with Rand cowing to Egwene.

If the two sides do confront each other, I think Rand will still have the upper hand since the WT need the Dragon Reborn a lot more than Rand needs a couple more AS to scheme around him.

He may have an epiphany, but he disliked AS before he became harder than steel.

So far, nothing has changed this part of his mind at all, if not outright strengthening that belief.

[Shadow Rider]

I think Egwene will send an emissary to Rand, and Rand, not knowing that Egwene sits as Amyrlin and does something vary nasty making Egwene vary angry.

[Mr Ares]

At the very least, whatever the outcome, I predict that Egwene will do the following:

*Say that Rand has a swollen head (Irony, much?).

Not especially.

[AuldGoldBeard]

I think Egwene will send an emissary to Rand, and Rand, not knowing that Egwene sits as Amyrlin and does something vary nasty making Egwene vary angry.

 

Rand mentions that Egwene is Amyrlin several times in TGS, and sent Narishma to talk to Egwene about bonding AM.

[Durinax]

No she will be upset iwth rand because he didnt offer to help her secure the white tower, and when he points out that if he would have offered she would have boxed his ears and told him this is womens business and to f**k off, after pointing that out she flies off the handle embrasses saidar and starts to beat him with air switches at which point a whole bunch of ashaman walk through the door and capture her. Rand to teach her manners gives her over to the seanchan on loan for a week in return for an alliance