The Amyrlin's Anger

[DemandredFO]

I'm sure Egwene would just as pissed if the AS had been killed when they attacked.  I agree the compulsion is bad but I think that was done somewhat for their own good.  Without compulsion they'd be running around the BT and who knows what Taim and his AM would do if they caught.  Not to mention(barring a binder) what does one do with 51 angry AS.  Even if you let them go now or made a regular bond instead, I highly doubt all the AS would just go their merry way or stay with the AM(some of those fake relationships have probably developed into real ones by now).  For one, since Toveine is I think the only one we have a POV from is the type to just forgive and forget.

In regards to LTT being somewhat of a failure as a battleleader, that is so but as someone said they were reinventing war as they went along and so it really isn't fair to compare that aspect of the 2nd and 3rd age.  It's like in History, one tries their hardest to get into the moment and not judge based on hindsight.

To the Foresaken and training; all the foresaken that have fallen(I think Greandal's still alive) fell because they thought they were facing incompetent children and didn't try their hardest.  E.g. in Tear don't you think if Be'lal had thought Moraine a threat a blossom of fire detonated from behind a sheild of air would've killed all but Ishamael and Be'lal.

[Wantanswers]

Why do you keep on the fact that a bound betwin AS and Asha'men is a bad thing ?

 

Because:

 

Compulsion is bad - and the bonded AS are under very strong one.

They can check female channelers for DF-ness, but not male ones.

Forced bonding is bad.

It is unclear what long-term effects the taint is going to have on the men.

 

It was OK as a stop-gap measure, maybe, but it now that saidin is clean and the AS in question have no reason to attack male channelers anymore, they should be freed.

 

 

Those AS are not compelled. They are bonded; just as a Warder is to his AS.

[Majsju]

Why do you keep on the fact that a bound betwin AS and Asha'men is a bad thing ?

 

Because:

 

Compulsion is bad - and the bonded AS are under very strong one.

They can check female channelers for DF-ness, but not male ones.

Forced bonding is bad.

It is unclear what long-term effects the taint is going to have on the men.

 

It was OK as a stop-gap measure, maybe, but it now that saidin is clean and the AS in question have no reason to attack male channelers anymore, they should be freed.

 

 

Those AS are not compelled. They are bonded; just as a Warder is to his AS.

 

They are very much Compelled, that is the extra bit we see mentioned when Logain bonds Toveine

[Lambada]

Hmm... Egwene definitely knows they were bonded, but does she know about "The extra bit"? I can't ever recall her mentioning the compelling side of things.

 

[Durinax]

it pretty much is the same, AS can compell their warders to do as they wish, it is stated as such when the AS are talking to alanna and asking why she hasnt compelled him to come to her or some such

[Barid Bel Medar]

Logain's bonding is different.

 

The AS are compelled to obey as a part of the bond, they cant resist it (as far as we know)

 

The AS bond currently does not do that, they can "tweak" the bond to do so, but the warders are not compelled to obey unless the AS activly seek to compell them. Logain's is inherant.

 

Having said that,

 

I believe that it was the right thing to od at the time. The AS were lucky not to be killed. (you dont just let someone who wants to murder you on their way, you make sure they dont try it again.) And it was for their own good, they were sorely misinformed, if there was no compelling, they most certainly would try to stick their noses in Taim's buisiness, and he wouldnt be as forgiving as Logain. The AS think they could bring down the BT and control the men. The fact is, if they were allowed to try, they would get crushed.

 

And to whoever said the AS should be released from the bond, Alanna should release Rand. But,  as she said, when you bond someone, an emotional connection is made, is hard to just give up a warder bond. More practically, the "extra bit" of compulsion should be removed.

[Durinax]

Logain's bonding is different.

 

The AS are compelled to obey as a part of the bond, they cant resist it (as far as we know)

 

The AS bond currently does not do that, they can "tweak" the bond to do so, but the warders are not compelled to obey unless the AS activly seek to compell them. Logain's is inherant.

 

Having said that,

 

I believe that it was the right thing to od at the time. The AS were lucky not to be killed. (you dont just let someone who wants to murder you on their way, you make sure they dont try it again.) And it was for their own good, they were sorely misinformed, if there was no compelling, they most certainly would try to stick their noses in Taim's buisiness, and he wouldnt be as forgiving as Logain. The AS think they could bring down the BT and control the men. The fact is, if they were allowed to try, they would get crushed.

 

And to whoever said the AS should be released from the bond, Alanna should release Rand. But,  as she said, when you bond someone, an emotional connection is made, is hard to just give up a warder bond. More practically, the "extra bit" of compulsion should be removed.

well you could also look at it like this:

warders are trained to obey AS so AS do not need the extra bit

whereas AS are used to and expect to be the ones commanding, so if the AM wouldnt have put in the compulsion bit they couldnt trust the AS at all and the AS would cause trouble and maybe a few accidents would have to be arranged in order to make things easier

[gambril]

In fairness to Egwene, when the compelling issue was brought up by Lelaine regarding the bonding of Asha'man, Egwene vehemently denied having anything to do with compulsion.  On the other hand, I critize her pretty hard for blaming Rand and getting angry at the Asha'man for doing that.  It's extremely naive to get mad at someone for defending their lives when they were unjustly attacked; just another example of how naive Aes Sedai can be; those 51 Aes Sedai forfeited their freedom when they went to destroy the BT.  The Asha'man could have destroyed the White Tower anytime they pleased and have had every reason to, yet they haven't.  In my opinion, RJ gave us too many examples of how fail(e) Aes Sedai as an organiztion is.  Add to that the fact that none of the Aes Sedai except possibly Egwene really even seem to understand how ignorant AS are and her not even that much since she has the AS should rule and manipulate the world to their own ends attitude.  Add to that the fact that Egwene is proud of how subtle AS are in their manipulation and encourages this attitude to other AS is just disgusting really.  Yeah, let it go forth that the WT is whole and still full of children.

[Durinax]

gambril i dont think egwene has realized how fail the AS are, IMO Elayne and Nynaeve have realized thsi more

[gambril]

gambril i dont think egwene has realized how fail the AS are, IMO Elayne and Nynaeve have realized thsi more

 

Eh, I wouldn't say that simply because Nynaeve and Elayne are Egwene's lapdogs and never stand up to her.  So now that Egwene's re-united the tower they will cave in her to like they always have in the past unfortanetly.  I was extremely disapointed in COT when Egwene summoned Elayne and Avienda appeared and told her nothing about what really went on at Shadar Logoth.  She gave enough hints that Egwene should have realized what was really going on, but in her ignorance she just smiled inwardly of how Avienda was just being a Wise One.  It might not have mattered if it was Elayne though because if she did tell Egwene that it was Rand, then Egwene would have asked how she knew and because of the fool customs that Aes Sedai adhere to, perhaps she wouldn't have told Egwene.  Aes Sedai are so bogged down in their own mire of stupidity that for an Aes Sedai to accomplish anything, they must break their own 'rules', gotta love it, not!

[Durinax]

gambril i dont think egwene has realized how fail the AS are, IMO Elayne and Nynaeve have realized thsi more

 

Eh, I wouldn't say that simply because Nynaeve and Elayne are Egwene's lapdogs and never stand up to her.  So now that Egwene's re-united the tower they will cave in her to like they always have in the past unfortanetly.  I was extremely disapointed in COT when Egwene summoned Elayne and Avienda appeared and told her nothing about what really went on at Shadar Logoth.  She gave enough hints that Egwene should have realized what was really going on, but in her ignorance she just smiled inwardly of how Avienda was just being a Wise One.  It might not have mattered if it was Elayne though because if she did tell Egwene that it was Rand, then Egwene would have asked how she knew and because of the fool customs that Aes Sedai adhere to, perhaps she wouldn't have told Egwene.  Aes Sedai are so bogged down in their own mire of stupidity that for an Aes Sedai to accomplish anything, they must break their own 'rules', gotta love it, not!

elayne and nyn collapse to egwene because egwene is a superbully, she browbeats and threatens them until they surrender. Plus they know that Egwene made them AS by decree so she could take it away with no loss to face (most AS still think they arent AS), or I hope they realize that

[gambril]

Very true, let us hope that all this time apart will give Nynaeve and Elayne the courage to stand up to Egwene next time she attempts to browbeat them into submission.  Nynaeve and Elayne have grown a lot since Ebou Dar and now fully consider themselves Aes Sedai so it can be hoped they aren't cowtowed into submitting once again.  I find it extemely ironic that the only channelers Rand trust are those that haven't sworn on the Oath Rod lawls, ie: Elayne, Nynaeve, Avienda, Narishima, Flinn and Eben Hopwil.  In other words, they earned his trust and didn't just assume they should be trusted like everyone else does.

[Hadilmir]

Very true, let us hope that all this time apart will give Nynaeve and Elayne the courage to stand up to Egwene next time she attempts to browbeat them into submission.  Nynaeve and Elayne have grown a lot since Ebou Dar and now fully consider themselves Aes Sedai so it can be hoped they aren't cowtowed into submitting once again.  I find it extemely ironic that the only channelers Rand trust are those that haven't sworn on the Oath Rod lawls, ie: Elayne, Nynaeve, Avienda, Narishima, Flinn and Eben Hopwil.  In other words, they earned his trust and didn't just assume they should be trusted like everyone else does.

It's a very common theme that the Oaths are not to be trusted throughout the series, I was disappointed when Egwene swore. Should've ignored Siuan and listened to Elayne and Nynaeve on that one. I'll be glad when Nynaeve gets back to the WT and rearranges the social structure (hopefully doing something about the Oaths while she's at it).

 

Also, browbeating? Egwene let them run off to do what they wanted on the spot and has yet to give any real orders to them since. She interrogates them for information because she is the head of an incredibly powerful organization and the AS don't trust her enough to tell her anything yet. They are her only truly reliable eyes and ears at the moment and emotions shouldn't get in the way of information flowing.

[DemandredFO]

I see Nyneave remaining with Rand or something but probably not WT unless it's with Rand.  I doubt would've believed Aviendha even if she told exactly what went on or Egwene would complained about Rand using Sa'angreal without the tower's permission, not to mention Rand didn't ask her, the Amarlyn.

[farthammer]

Very true, let us hope that all this time apart will give Nynaeve and Elayne the courage to stand up to Egwene next time she attempts to browbeat them into submission.  Nynaeve and Elayne have grown a lot since Ebou Dar and now fully consider themselves Aes Sedai so it can be hoped they aren't cowtowed into submitting once again.  I find it extemely ironic that the only channelers Rand trust are those that haven't sworn on the Oath Rod lawls, ie: Elayne, Nynaeve, Avienda, Narishima, Flinn and Eben Hopwil.  In other words, they earned his trust and didn't just assume they should be trusted like everyone else does.

 

Hey look, who would you really rather be in this situation.  Politically Egwene seems pretty far out front of the rest, but she has the desk job here.  It's what she's better suited for, but she'll never be a Nynaeve or a Moiraine.  It's probably not so different than what happened between Moiraine and Siuan.  But it is Moiraine who became a legend.

[aunt_pol]

As you say, Eggy has the desk job, and we've been reminded at various points in the series that the Amyrlin is usually, to all intents and purposes, chained to that desk.

 

Look at all the palaver Siuan had to put up with to go to Fal Dara to meet Rand and the boys, and to catch up on all Moiraine's news. Also, it seems like Elaida never left the Tower once she took the top job, until she was dragged out of it on raken-back.

 

I am going somewhere with this...

 

Where are Rand and Eg gonna meet? Can't imagine him being at ease to wander the Tower.

Can't imagine the Hall agreeing to the Amyrlin being allowed talk alone to the Dragon Reborn.

And those two certainly can't have the kind of conversation they need to, with that pack of cackling biddies watching.

 

Of course Travelling has revolutionised the whole business of gadding bout the countryside, but it'll be interesting to see where's agreed on.

[farthammer]

I think the WT as it is now is such a target for so many different types of powerful enemies, that its only value to the AS is in the sense that they can turn it into a trap, weapon, trojan horse, or whatever and take out as many of them as possible.  I think Rand could certainly be a participant, they will need to choose a different refuge, Rhuidean?  I mean this is all speculative obviously but I don't see how the AS can survive and try and hold on to the WT in a physical sense.

[Owayn The Traveller]

They could meet in T'A'R. I can see some Egwene time there in the next book.

[DemandredFO]

I agree that Amarlyn's usually have a desk and are chained to it except this time it's all or nothing.  There aren't any continues after game over and no reset button.  If I were Rand I certainly wouldn't be comfortable in the Tower unless I had a sh1tload of Asha'man and non-channeling soldiers, Mat, Perrin, Nyneave, Moiraine...  You get the picture.

[farthammer]

Ok but what exactly do you think they will do then?  For example let's say everything in your post is true, and at some time or another, those characters realize it's true.  What then?

[amaranth]

I suppose someone has already said this, but I don't think this has anything to do with the Egwene being angry at Rand.

 

Both Egwene and Rand have both known what it is like to be held captive and to hate those who captured them. More or less, Rand has been in Egwene's shoes and understands.

[Durinax]

I suppose someone has already said this, but I don't think this has anything to do with the Egwene being angry at Rand.

 

Both Egwene and Rand have both known what it is like to be held captive and to hate those who captured them. More or less, Rand has been in Egwene's shoes and understands.

Egwene has been in rands shoes (just thought I would point that out, for some reason that irritated me)

 

I personnally feel that Egwene is goign to pick a fight with rand, it just seems like what she would do. Although it wont be like one of their fights at the very beginning instead it will be calm words until one or the other surrenders to the others will, which I hope Egwene will fold first especially in front of the hall because that would show them who is really in charge of the forces of light, and although egwene would lose a bit a power she could easily regain it (after all AS maintained power by backing both sides in every conflict as mentioned during elaynes bid for power) by saying this is a plot she has cooked up on how to control him (which I hope she never does, because the dragon is a power upon himself)

[aunt_pol]

TGS showed some wonderful promise in the whole area of more open communication - Tam vs Cads, Eg vs Elaida, even Rand's comments to Hurin - that I believe we can look forward to some humdinger convos in ToM.