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Why Does the Dark One want Fain dead?


Crael123
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So. my question is why does the DO want Fain dead so badly? he has Slayer, the shadows most effective assassin, attempting to kill him for God knows how long. it has been theorized that the pack of darkhounds in CoT are after him. why is the DO so concerned that fain dies? is fain the Key to winning TG?

 

i think Fain has the power to kill the DO and is going to help rand do it. what do u guys think?

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It's possible he wants Fain dead so that Fain doesn't kill Rand.  For whatever reason, I think the Dark One finds it very important that Rand reach the Last Battle alive and relatively healthy.  Maybe the Dark One can't really break free unless the Prophecies are fulfilled as well?

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I've been meaning to post about something similar to this.

 

I think that the DO and his higher up minions (Forsaken, specifically) know of this danger from Fain (and more specifically, Mordeth/Shadar Logoth).  Specifically, they know he is the key to the DO's undoing and/or destruction.  I think the OP (or arguably the TP in combination with the OP) can reSEAL the prison, but not actually kill the DO.  The evil of Fain/Mordeth can actually kill the DO (I think).

 

In my re-read of TGH, I noticed that Selene (aka. Lanfear) is very very wary of the Shadar Logoth dagger when Rand et al. recover the Horn and the Dagger.  She immediately is concerned about it, and tells Rand he shouldn't even be close to it.  They conveniently find a place inside of the Horn's chest to conceal it.  She is confident that the chest will keep it from disturbing them.  In my opinion, she warded it somehow when it was placed in the chest.

 

Later, we know that Rand used the evil of Shadar Logoth to destroy the taint on the male half of the OP.  The two evils (taint and Shadar Logoth evil) basically destroy each other, leaving the clean saidin.

 

It can be assumed that the taint was like having a greasy fingerprint from the DO left on saidin, and the evil of Shadar Logoth was like the detergent/cleaner that repelled the taint off of the OP.  Rand created a situation where the two of them were basically trapped together and were forced to scrub each other clean with his little funnel saidin/saidar thingy that he made with Nynaeve.  Like a giant stainless steel scrub-brush  :)

 

Slightly OT:  In my TGH re-read, I noticed that Rand seems to disappear to Fain (he can't sense Rand) whenever Rand enters the Void or "seeks the Oneness" as Lanfear calls it.  QUESTION:  Could this ability of Rand to disappear from Fain's senses be related to the taint on the OP?  If so, does this mean that, now that the male half is clean, can Fain sense Rand even when Rand is in the void (ie. channeling)?

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Are you sure he can't sense him when Rand enters the Void? I always took it as the sense was lost when Rand left the world.. portal stones, gateways, the Ways..

 

I don't think the Dark One cares about Fain. Moridin is the one that wants him dead. Fain is referred to as a renegade and look what Carridin's fate was. The Shadow does not let go easily. Moridin hired out Slayer to take care of two targets - one was Fain, the other was somebody I forget. It's mentioned in one of the later books and he refers to "that other vermin." On a side note I also took Slayer's target to be Lan and Nynaeve but everybody believes it to have been Rand - with Slayer employed by Moridin it never made much sense to me. Anyway..

 

I think Fain will have a role in the next two books but I do not believe he will kill the Dark One or play any significant impact on his defeat. That's not to say he won't be important in other ways. We just have yet to see it. The Shadar Logoth plot I believe ended with the cleansing of the taint, a very fitting and major accomplishment.

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Hmm...  I was under the impression that it is when Rand enters the Void that Fain can't sense him.  I don't think it has anything to do with where Rand is/was at the time that he disappears.  When Rand is concerned that Fain will find them, Lanfear (Selene) tells him to "seek the oneness" to be safe.  This could just mean that she wanted him to use the OP, but I thought that she somehow knew that Rand in void = Fain can't find him.

 

I disagree also that Fain's importance to the plot (or at least, Shadar Logoth's evil's importance to the plot) was ended with the cleansing.  I think, as many others do, that Fain will play some sort of Gollum-like role in the end where he'll be the one to go down with the One Ring... er... DO, which will destroy them both...  Or something like that.

 

Some people think, and I don't totally disagree, that Fain could possibly become the next DO.

 

Remember, Aginor sensed the "old evil" or some such that Mat had with him (the dagger of Shadar Logoth) way back in EotW at the Eye.  It does have significance.  Surely Slayer's skills wouldn't be employed if Fain was just a simple renegade Darkfriend.  I think Fain is important, and possibly potentially fatal to the DO, and the DO knows it and wants him eliminated.

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I too think it has something to do with the Ordieth connection to Shadar Logoth. What  kind of power would make the Dark One's minions so afraid they basically shat themselves. Is ever explained just how Ahridol defeated them back in the day? 

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Firstly, let me point out that the AS in TV also used a thick metal box to keep the dagger, and Egwene doesn't comment on any warding put on that box. I don't think Lanfear did anything to the box that held the Horn; it's just heavy enough to block the effects of the dagger.

 

Secondly, Fingolfin, Aridhol didn't defeat the Shadow. An army of Shadowspawn camped there for the night (that was sometime during the Trolloc Wars, i.e. 1K years after the War of Power), and Mashadar had his way with them, the very same way he almost had Rand and the gang back during TEotW.

 

One last point - if Fain was indeed a danger to the DO itself, I doubt any but Ishamael would be made aware of that danger. I just don't think the DO trusts the other Forsaken enough to admit a weakness to them.

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I haven't read the BWB for awhile, but I'm pretty sure that part of Mordeth's original allure in Aridhol was his claim that he knew of a way to completely defeat the Shadow.  Now, it is true that he never succeeded in doing so, but maybe he never got to completely try it.  It's also possible that he was just lying, but I don't think that he was.  I think that the "old evil" that he possessed has for a long time been an enemy to the DO, as the DO and the Forsaken seem to know/indicate.  I think that Fain hates the DO sooo much, and with his newfound powers (ie. evil of Shadar Logoth) he has finally found a way to seek his revenge and defeat the DO.  His link with Mordeth has only intensified that hatred/desire to defeat, IMO.  He is just trying to take Rand out too, if he can, because he thinks it will be a thorn in the DO's foot, and he also happens to really hate Rand and the other ta'veren.

 

Finally, I don't think that Fain himself is a danger to the DO, but I do think his other half, Mordeth, is.  Fain is still in there somewhere, and he's a frightened sniveling worm... Ordeith  or "wormwood."

 

As for the warding thing, you're probably right yoniy0.  It just seemed a little fishy that Lanfear was so confident that the dagger would not effect them while in the chest, so I thought maybe she did something with the OP to protect herself and the others.  But it is more likely that the chest was some sort of thick material made out of the OP that would completely protect from contamination or something, and she knew what that material was.

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Remember, Aginor sensed the "old evil" or some such that Mat had with him (the dagger of Shadar Logoth) way back in EotW at the Eye.  It does have significance.  Surely Slayer's skills wouldn't be employed if Fain was just a simple renegade Darkfriend.  I think Fain is important, and possibly potentially fatal to the DO, and the DO knows it and wants him eliminated.

 

Not neccessarily. Slayer for instance brags to himself about killing Joiya and Amico, the latter of which had been stilled. Which suggests to me that Slayers job is actually hunting down renegade darkfriends, and he hasnt really killed anyone of note.

 

I think Fain is important, but I dont think the DO cares about him one way or another. He is just simply a renegade with funky powers that Ishamael probably doesn't want him using against the Shadow. Any renegade darkfriend would be on the list of people to be killed purely because of what they know and also to make an example to other followers of the dark; Fain more so because he was originally given special attention.

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I too think it has something to do with the Ordieth connection to Shadar Logoth. What  kind of power would make the Dark One's minions so afraid they basically shat themselves. Is ever explained just how Ahridol defeated them back in the day? 

 

I completely agree. The Shadar Logoth evil & DO evil repel one another. It may be that Fain's evil is the key to keeping the DO in his prison, away from the bore.

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I too think it has something to do with the Ordieth connection to Shadar Logoth. What  kind of power would make the Dark One's minions so afraid they basically shat themselves. Is ever explained just how Ahridol defeated them back in the day? 

 

I completely agree. The Shadar Logoth evil & DO evil repel one another. It may be that Fain's evil is the key to keeping the DO in his prison, away from the bore.

 

This is my favorite line of thinking in this thread so far.

 

Fain was not a threat... until he became Ordieth.  Now he is a threat to not only the DO, but to Rand as well.  This is why he's a bit of a wildcard IMO.  Honestly, I'm surprised there are fans who think Fain is just a renegade Darkfriend with little to no significance in the grand scheme of things.  I just assumed that everybody sees Fain as a very important piece to the whole puzzle of the Wheel of Time series.

 

In my re-read of TGH, it is clear that Fain is more than just a crazy Darkfriend with special powers who needs to be put down to make an example.  He's going to play a major role.  I'll say "I told you so" in a couple of years when a Memory of Light is officially published. ;D

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whats teh process for travellign with the DO's power, isnt it described as fadign away and reappearing in another spot. What if rand creates a gateway with teh true power with no distinct exit, one out of the pattern. Then pushes fain through into the DO's prison. once thats done the callandor circle seals the deal perfectly, with fain just on the other side of the seal to ward away the DO's touch and thus taint

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well I think that since its way of travelling is so different, that maybe it takes a person out of the pattern then places them back in at a different location. And since the DO is outside the pattern maybe there is a way to go outside the pattern permenantly, somethign like a gateway, and push Fain through and let the evil be a buffer zone to the actual seal.

 

srry I came up with this when I was very tipsy so if it doesnt make sense I understand

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I always got the idea that Mordeth was trying to use the equivalent of some dark magic or something like that in order to beat the devil, or in this case the DO.  Like summoning an evil to fight another evil. 

 

The DO wants to stop Fain, cuz if he kills Rand, the DO won't get his chance of being free.

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personally i think fain will be used in the last battle as a counterstrike to the Dark Ones evil. since Rand and Nynaeve destroyed Shadar Logoth all that remains of SL's evil is Fain/Mordeth. Fain will be a distraction while rand and another two use Collandor and destroy the DO.

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