Seanchan Prophecy; Fact or Fiction

[amaranth]

Maybe Tuon and Rand will make a pact. He'll kneel before the Crystal Throne if she agrees to bind the Senchan to him? Perhaps there is a bargain involved? A bargain of some sort would make both prophecies equally true.

[Durinax]

Maybe Tuon and Rand will make a pact. He'll kneel before the Crystal Throne if she agrees to bind the Senchan to him? Perhaps there is a bargain involved? A bargain of some sort would make both prophecies equally true.

I would much prefer that rand used his taveren powers again and made a small concession to them in return for alliance

[Cirin]

I would actually prefer to see Rand and Tuon coming to an agreement to work together rather than Rand just manipulating the Pattern to make the Seanchan serve him.  After all, it's better to have actual loyalty and respect for your allies than to simply brow beat them into submission.  I'm hoping from here on out Rand will gain the confidence and help of others not just because they need him, or because they must, but because they want to.

 

I wonder, too, if we've seen the complete fulfillment of Mat's little "fox that makes the ravens fly" thing?  It certainly could be just him taking Tuon and Selucia, but I wonder if it will become more than that?  Either way, I think he's going to play a key in getting them all to work together.  He is, after all, the thing in common that Tuon could think of to talk about.

 

Maybe Rand will kneel before Mat instead!  Maybe that would appease the Seanchan, make Rand a little more comfortable than doing the whole Crystal Throne thing, and give Mat apoplexy as he yells about "not being a bloody Lord!"  :D

 

We also don't really know what the heck is going on in Seanchan, only that it's in turmoil.  That would be kind of ironic if Rand charged into Moridin's fortress in the Blight, only to find him seated on the Crystal Throne inside, a ter'angreal that creates awe in others.  Ishamael was likely beyond that Prophecy in the first place.  :D

[lordofsoup]

Come on it is not possible that it is real.  Ishmael was the one who convinced Hawkwing to send them across the ocean, and Ishmael was the one who screwed with the prophecies.  I refuse to believe that they are the true version.  Ishmael owned Hawkwing, so it is perfectly beleiveble that he owned his sons or someone else in Seanchan.  There is also the possibility that one of the Emperors or Empresses changed the prophecies for political purposes hundreds of years ago. 

[Sharaman]

Dark Prophesy can be true - at least the TGH stuff has so far, worked out.

The Foretelling talent is not restricted to light-side channelers. Ishamel might have decided to obfuscate the political situation by throwing in a prophesy that would lead to conflict between the Seanchan and the Westlanders but which wasn't necessarily false.

 

Speaking of Dark Prophesy BTW,

Mat lay with his eyes closed and his face pale, but his chest rose and fell in the even rhythm of a deep sleep.

How will this affect matters? Moiraine wondered. He is not necessary with the Horn gone, and yet . . . .

 

How does she know that Mat is supposed to be the horn-blower? Moiraine does her stint of studying with Adeleas and Vandeme later.

 

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

Dark Prophesy can be true - at least the TGH stuff has so far, worked out.

The Foretelling talent is not restricted to light-side channelers. Ishamel might have decided to obfuscate the political situation by throwing in a prophesy that would lead to conflict between the Seanchan and the Westlanders but which wasn't necessarily false.

 

Speaking of Dark Prophesy BTW,

Mat lay with his eyes closed and his face pale, but his chest rose and fell in the even rhythm of a deep sleep.

How will this affect matters? Moiraine wondered. He is not necessary with the Horn gone, and yet . . . .

 

How does she know that Mat is supposed to be the horn-blower? Moiraine does her stint of studying with Adeleas and Vandeme later.

 

 

 

That quote is not right, that happened in TDR, i dont know how you got that. As for Dark Prophecy, Ishy didnt prophecy anything, he deliberately messed with the seanchan version assuring the two dooms, there is no evidence to suggest he actually had a real foretelling but he himself says he manipulated Hawkwing, Farstrider and more...

100% this is in no way a Dark Prophecy

[Luckers]

Dark Prophesy can be true - at least the TGH stuff has so far, worked out.

The Foretelling talent is not restricted to light-side channelers. Ishamel might have decided to obfuscate the political situation by throwing in a prophesy that would lead to conflict between the Seanchan and the Westlanders but which wasn't necessarily false.

 

Speaking of Dark Prophesy BTW,

Mat lay with his eyes closed and his face pale, but his chest rose and fell in the even rhythm of a deep sleep.

How will this affect matters? Moiraine wondered. He is not necessary with the Horn gone, and yet . . . .

 

How does she know that Mat is supposed to be the horn-blower? Moiraine does her stint of studying with Adeleas and Vandeme later.

 

 

 

She doean't know Mat is going to blow the Horn, she was speaking of her plans to use Mat and Perrin to lure Rand into joining the group taking the Horn to Illian.

[Duskfire]

He definetly didn't have a Foretelling. But it doesn't mean it won't happen. None of the characters know that he did that, and there's no reason for anyone to believe it was at all tampered with. Its contradictory, but so was the Callandor business to some extent. Rand will simply fulfill a prophecy that he believes to be true.

 

Besides, if it was the will of the pattern for Ishamael to tamper with the prophecies, then its not neccessarily false from a fate/pattern perspective :P

[farthammer]

I don't think he will deliberately act on the basis of prophecy at this point, much less one coming from the Seanchan that largely seems to serve Seanchan interests.

[Sharaman]

Tks Luckers, that's a good explanation.

@Barid, the quote is from TGH Chapter 7, Blood Calls to  Blood.

Moiraine wasn't even around when Mat was healed again in TDR (and the Horn was) so I don't know how you conflated the two incidents.

 

I wasn't suggesting that Ishamel himself necessarily had the foretelling. Some other Dark Channeler may have. How can you say that it's "100 % not a Dark prophesy?" - there's no evidence either way that it is or isn't.

I do think there will be something centred around the CT.

[Shard]

I honestly feel that this is the "Second Doom" that Ishy mentioned, by corrupting the Essink cycle, all he has to do is switch the Crystal throne kneeling to Rand to Rand kneeling to the Crystal throne and Rand loses a powerful Ally and Nation that will not easily bow to serve him. Look what happened in tGS, Toun resisted the Ta'veren, how many have we seen even do this? Not many are aware they are affected and almost none can resist and yet she did.

 

I liken this to my thoughts on the BA, that it only takes one lie in the begining, at the founding to ruin the end product. That one line in the Prophecy has meant war between Seachand and Randland when they perhaps could have had peace already.

[wvlr2]

Look what happened in tGS, Toun resisted the Ta'veren, how many have we seen even do this? Not many are aware they are affected and almost none can resist and yet she did.

 

Actually, that is not the only way that this scene can be viewed.    Maybe it was his Ta'verenness or the Pattern itself that blocked her from being "overcome" at the wrong time by his "Blackness".  It is not the DotNM that had to be bound.    It is the Nine Moons herself.  She could not be "bound" until she became the Empress.    Also, she had not attacked the WT yet and he had not Attacked Graendal yet.

 

If she had given it at that time it would have messed up everything.

[Barid Bel Medar]

@ sharaman:  my mistake, your correct, I had forgotten, completely slpped my mind.

 

 

[yoniy0]

Sharaman, what makes you say that the Dark Prophecy from Blood Calls Blood is a true one?

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still

I don't see this ever happening, do you?

 

The rest are things that were already happening, it's not so impressive that they (Fain? Or a Fade?) knew about them.

[Shard]

I thought it was more them bragging then anything else.

[Sharaman]

Prophesy and foretelling in Wotland is not 100% - it's alternate possibilities, as the Dreamwalkers explained to Egwene and Moiraine and as Rand and Co. saw in the portal stone. Even Min says conditional things like " If Perrin is there, he may save you" or " If Bashere turns against you, something bad will happen".

 

Some of the "Blood" prophesy happened, - some remains possible, some came close to happening.

Plus Moiraine checked out another bunch of Dark prophesies at the twins' home in Arafel, which helped her decide on her future course of action. So presumably some of what she puzzled out was correct.

 

I am not saying that the Crystal Throne prophesy in the Seanchan versions of the Karaetheon is necessarily correct. But we have to consider the possibility that it is. Just because Ishamel put it in there doesn't mean that he made it up at random. He may have inserted something a dark channeler foretold.

 

There are several ways in which it could be fulfilled. I've already mentioned one possible plotline 1/2 seriously: Tuon believes the CT prophesy so she may use Travel to bring the CT from Seanchan. Rand might recognise it as LTT's old seat in the Hall of Servants and the CT might recognise Rand in the same way that Callandor did. He might kneel and swear an oath to the CT and then sit on it making the owner murderously angry (as seen in dreamtime) but also binding her due to the ter'angreal's awe effect.

I'm sure there are many other creative ways to reconcile "bind the Nine moons" and "kneel to the CT".

 

Take the whole shebang of the Blood=blood (cutting out the repeated blood calls blood refrain)

"Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover she seeks,"

 

True so far - Lanfear was loose and seeking Rand

 

who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

 

Rand served her for a while in TGH-TSR

and Moiraine saw that he could end up being Lanfear's slave or dead.

The "to live, you must die" Finn prophesy

could tie in at some level with "and die and serve still". 

 

 

Who shall stand against her coming?

The Shining Walls shall kneel.

 

Tar Valon has been broken - several times.

 

The man who channels stands alone.

He gives his friends for sacrifice.

Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal.

Which will he choose? Which will he choose?

What hand shelters? What hand slays?

 

Not yet fully resolved but seems to state a possibility which nearly came to pass. Clearly, Rand could have been turned to the Shadow, which this seems to refers to. Also Rand did put his friends in danger many times.

 

 

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.

Isam waited in the high passes.

The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill.

One did live, and one did die, but both are.

The Time of Change has come.

 

Happened and still happening

 

The Watchers wait on Toman's Head.

The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.

Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.

Now the Great Lord comes. Now the Great Lord comes.

 

Partly fulfilled in the sense of the Seanchan attacking Toman's Head

The weather does screw up and lots of people die as GLoD starts breaking the seals and touching the world more closely.

What the "ancient wrong" is that the Seanchan (or Berelain maybe, as Hawkwing's descendant) will slay, I dunno. But presumably it is supposed to happened before the seals are broken. Maybe Tuon / Berelain will kill Fain if he's the ancient evil?

 

 

 

 

[aunt_pol]

Isn't that Hawkwing's sword Justice that Rand has been toting about lately? Could he be the seed of the hammer in some fashion? I know, I know, but what if the ancient tree quoted is not one of those Tree-emblemed nations, but Avendesora? Ancient, and Rand did (unintentionally) fry it... Just sayin'

[Sharaman]

Well, on one side, Rand's Aiel in unbroken descent - Rhuidean confirmed that.

On the other, he's vaguely descended from one of Hawkwing's generals. Maybe Artur did the nasty at some stage, who knows?

[farthammer]

Rand is going to wander around and collect every cultures special sword and repeat what was thought to be the callendor only prophecy for each of them, presumably by literally stabbing everyone in the heart.

[FarShainMael]

Isn't that Hawkwing's sword Justice that Rand has been toting about lately? Could he be the seed of the hammer in some fashion? I know, I know, but what if the ancient tree quoted is not one of those Tree-emblemed nations, but Avendesora? Ancient, and Rand did (unintentionally) fry it... Just sayin'

 

Indeed he did.. and I've wondered elsewhere whether Janduin might have been Hawkwing reborn, and that may have been why Luc had to be on hand to kill him - to return him to T'A'R to rejoin the Heroes. Recall that Janduin was 'the youngest clan chief in living (Aiel) memory'; and he 'had a way about him that made people listen and follow'. A supreme warrior leader. Like Hawkwing.

 

 

[nolirion]

 

 

Indeed he did.. and I've wondered elsewhere whether Janduin might have been Hawkwing reborn, and that may have been why Luc had to be on hand to kill him - to return him to T'A'R to rejoin the Heroes. Recall that Janduin was 'the youngest clan chief in living (Aiel) memory'; and he 'had a way about him that made people listen and follow'. A supreme warrior leader. Like Hawkwing.

 

 

Yet Jaunduin is not the only good leader , to say that he is a"supreme warrior leader " is perhaps extreme .

Don't think Hawking as the same spirit as Janduin he is much more harsh .

 

Also about the main tread I have read that ishy is supposed to have corrupted the seanchan prophecy like for example the part about the dragon kneeling to the empress .

[Duskfire]

Prophesy and foretelling in Wotland is not 100% - it's alternate possibilities, as the Dreamwalkers explained to Egwene and Moiraine and as Rand and Co. saw in the portal stone. Even Min says conditional things like " If Perrin is there, he may save you" or " If Bashere turns against you, something bad will happen".

 

Foretellings and Mins visions are always correct, it depends on how they are interpreted. Its dreams that are only possibilities, though dreams of ta`veren are almost always correct due to how tightly bound to the Pattern they are. With the Bashere one, what she actually said was that she saw something dark in the images around Bashere, and then speculated what they might be, one of which what would happen if Bashere turned against Rand. Its just Mins interpretation.

 

With Perrin, she saw something bad happening to Rand, and knew that Perrin was somehow important. Her telling Rand not to send Perrin away was just her way of self fulfilling what she saw; its happened many times before, where Rand has done a course of action based on what Min has seen, where he ordinarily wouldn't have done it. But her visions are always true, she just doesnt always interpret them correctly.

 

However, the dark prophecies could be completely made up crap. Who knows.

[Sharaman]

There's nothing that says a channeler with a Foretelling Talent cannot. could not be working for the Dark. A Dark foreteller could be as accurate as a light-side foreteller.

 

Most dreams are conditional, offering alternate futures.

“There is no one set path to the future. The Pattern makes the finest lace look coarse woven sacking, or

tangled string. In Tel’aran’rhiod it is possible to see some ways the future may be woven. No more than that.”

Seana the late dreamwalker explains it as conditional in TSR Chapter 23.

 

Min's Talent is unique. But all prophesy is conditional to some extent - even Min - she has always so far been right but that doesn't mean she will always be. TGS has an explanation that if GLoD wins free, he could rip up the Pattern in ways that invalidate Min's viewings.

 

Min's viewing about Perrin is "Twice he's going to have to be there, or if he's not, something bad will happen to you. Very bad. It will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is." That's clearly very conditional.

 

 

 

 

[Charlz Guybon]

 

 

The man who channels stands alone.

He gives his friends for sacrifice.

Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal.

Which will he choose? Which will he choose?

What hand shelters? What hand slays?

 

This is deliberate irony on the part of RJ, the foretelling may have been given by a Darkfriend, but the talent comes from the pattern and should be interpreted in that light, not as the Shadow does.

 

The life eternal is the cycle of reincarnation on the wheel and the death eternal is the embrace of the Dark One. Of course the Darkfriends believe otherwise, but they're just deluding themselves.

[yoniy0]

But all prophesy is conditional to some extent - even Min - she has always so far been right but that doesn't mean she will always be. TGS has an explanation that if GLoD wins free, he could rip up the Pattern in ways that invalidate Min's viewings.

You're making this up. We've seen zilch to suggest Min's viewings might not come true. The same goes for Foretellings. Of course, if the DO breaks free, then all bets are off, because the Pattern itself would be unraveled (and Fortellings are nothing more than fixed points in the Pattern). But barring that, i.e. if the Pattern still exists, every piece of evidence we have suggests that those ALWAYS come true.

 

BTW, I can't go on without telling you again that it totally creeps me out when you say GLoD.