The turning and rebirth in WoT "SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT"

[Eddie]

SPOILER WARNING SPOILER WARNING SPOILER WARNING

 

I am new to this  forum but i figured it was the right place to voice some thoughts I have had about the wheel of time, particularly the rebirth and turning of the wheel. First of all I would like to say that this story is truly epic and I love it. I have read the books seceral times.

 

One thing that wonders me is that the wheel turns and everyone is reborne until the end of time. In this epic, we have seen many forsaken die and many of them by balefire. This means that they can never be reborne again and the dark lord must find new forsakens when the wheel has turned. We also hear that the dark one has fought the dragon since the beginning of times. Sometimes he joins the dark side and sometides the good.

The thing that I find highly unlikely is, that the dragon presumeably never have been killed by balefire. He has lived a thousand lives and battles where whole cities are destroyed has been fought, but he has never been hit, whereas many of the forsaken are hit it the age we follow.

He is not that much stronger that the other forsaken and apperantly some of the seanchan are as strong as he(Alivia)

.

Is the dragon so strong a taveren that he has always avoided being removed completely from the pattern, simply becomes he is the tool of the creator?

Will the creator create a new dragon if the old one is removed by balefire?

The dragon is special because he is the creators countermove to the dark one. If the dark one simply had the dragon killed with balefire, there would be no one to seal the dark ones prison and no one to stand against the forsaken and so forth..!

 

I mean lews therin did not seal the prison himself. The 100 male aes sedai helped him, and some of them almost as powerful as himself. The dragon is no saint, sometimes he joins the dark side and sometimes the good. To me he is just as ”human” as everyone else, though way more cool than most. All in all he seems replaceable to me.

 

I know this is philosofical discussion but nonetheless still something that crosses my mind regularly. I hope someone can enlighten me with some answers :)

 

[Majsju]

Balefire does not mean you can not be reborn, it only means the DO can not snatch your soul and put it in a new body, like he did with Moridin, Cyndane and the Gars.

 

The Dragon has never turned to the Shadow, that was just Ishamael being a lying liar.

[Mystica]

I've now read the comment that those being balefired can be reborn twice here on this board, yet this seems in complete contradiction with what I've read in the books. For it clearly states, each time it is discussed, then one that has been balefired is literally 'cut out of the Pattern, never to be born again'.

 

So where does this new theory comes from that contradicts what it says in the books?

 

Balefire cuts a person out from the Pattern before the moment of the balefire. The stronger the balefire, the further back the person's thread is removed from the Pattern. While s/he will still be part of the Pattern 'in the past' prior to the moment their thread has been cut, they will not be born again in the future. They cease to exist, their soul ceases to exist. Their chance to be reborn is killed.

 

Over and over this is explained in the books, so I'm confused where this new theory comes from.  :-\

[Majsju]

It is not a theory, it is a fact, confirmed by RJ.

 

When it comes to what the books say, always keep in mind that people in the books speak what they believe to be true. Sometimes, they do not quite hit the mark.

[Morsker]

I'm at a loss to understand where the idea of balefire as permadeath even comes from. Even Brandon believed it until Maria explained it to him. Like, tons of people get this impression from the books, but it's never stated in anything RJ wrote, and when the Dark One mentions Rahvin, he actually explains the reason he can't resurrect him. It's never mysterious.

 

The OP is right about the obvious problems it would have for the setting though, if balefire actually did this.

[MikeRiley]

The forsaken aren't reborn as forsaken with each turning of the wheel. They are just regular people who turned out to be the Dark One's pawns in this cycle. Lanfear is not Lanfear every time. She's probably alive somewhere every time - much the same way Ilyena could be alive in this setting as an ugly old hag or something.

 

Remember that the ages aren't always exactly the same. Names and faces will change, the big players will change (with the exception of Rand). The only thing that will remain inevitable are the key events such as the boring, sealing and (probably) remaking of the Dark One's prison.

 

Also, regarding Rand's serving the Dark One in the past.. I believe he did, just not on the same official level as the forsaken do. Consider Moridin's PoV with his game. The Fisher King changes sides or is forced to make moves by the other side, causing the piece to serve the opponent's purposes. We see this with the forsaken pushing Rand into becoming harder and harder and causing chaos rather than dispelling it. He can be manipulated to do things that favor the Shadow while believing he's right and still on the Light's side. I'd like to say more but it's getting into late series spoilers and I may have said too much for this section of the forum already.

[Majsju]

There is a huge difference between the Dragon being manipulated into doing the Shadow wants him to do, and deliberatly turning. And I think deliberatly turning was what the OP was after, but I could be wrong about that.

 

Anyhoo, the part about actually turning was, perhaps not flat out refused by RJ, but close enough that we can assume it never happened.

[Eddie]

I guess I am the OP. I can’t figure out the abbreviation, but it is only midday here :D Perhaps my mind is not working properly yet :P

 

Majsju

Well a person the majority considers to be evil, does not neccesarely consider himself evil :)

Rand does some pretty nasty stuff but I do admit that he generally acts according to the greater good.

 

Also when Moiraine enters the arches in the aiel waste she sees 3 possible outcomes from the incident where Lanfear attacks Egwene and Aviendha in the harbour. One of those outcomes are that Rand is taken by Lanfear and becomes her champion of the dark. Perhaps ishamael is lying in book one where he states the that the dragon has served both good and evil in order to manipulate him, but the arches never lie. This means that if certain evets are played out right, he would willingly serve evil.

We are all manipulated one way of the other and that is no excuse to do evil.

 

If balefire only means that the Dark one cannot snatch you and resurrect you, but the creator can, I have simply misunderstood the effect of balefire :)

 

The forsaken aren't reborn as forsaken with each turning of the wheel. They are just regular people who turned out to be the Dark One's pawns in this cycle. Lanfear is not Lanfear every time. She's probably alive somewhere every time - much the same way Ilyena could be alive in this setting as an ugly old hag or something.

 

Remember that the ages aren't always exactly the same. Names and faces will change, the big players will change (with the exception of Rand). The only thing that will remain inevitable are the key events such as the boring, sealing and (probably) remaking of the Dark One's prison.

 

This makes very good sense. I assumed that because LTT/Rand knows so much about the forsaken, they were the same all the time. But the recognition is ofcourse only from the age of legends and not from earlier turnings of the wheel :)

 

I must admit that I have not read that much about RJ own eksplanations to differen subjects, because I like when the books are open for reader interpretations instead of the auhor dictating how the books are supposed to be understood. But perhaps he eksplains a good deal..

[Hadilmir]

When a person dies, their soul leaves the Pattern. As the soul is leaving, the Dark One, through the Bore, can push the soul back in to a body that is in an area he has great influence over such as Shayol Ghul. Time is irrelevant here, time doesn't exist outside the Pattern, so unsealed the Dark One could hold a soul at the halfway point for forever effectively. The exception is Heroes of the Horn who are held within the Pattern by the Pattern. Balefire burns the soul completely out of the Pattern, the soul never exists in the halfway point, but it is never actually destroyed. That is why a soul can be reborn without the Dark One being able to transmitigate it. The soul is still intact for the Creator/Wheel(?) to reinsert into the Pattern again. There are no irregularities for a balefired soul, they're woven back in like everyone else.

[Suttree]

There is a huge difference between the Dragon being manipulated into doing the Shadow wants him to do, and deliberatly turning. And I think deliberatly turning was what the OP was after, but I could be wrong about that.

 

Anyhoo, the part about actually turning was, perhaps not flat out refused by RJ, but close enough that we can assume it never happened.

 

What confuses me is I've read RJ quotes that seem to support both sides. Not sure exactly when it was said but in addition to the "you believe Ishy" I have also read

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 20 January 2003 - Dayton, OH

 

Q: (inaudible)

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

Is that referring to a diff champion of the light?

[ed2funy]

*stalks his namesake user*

-_-

 

 

Why would it be a diff Champion? There is one Champion, though he may take many names.

[Suttree]

Balefire does not mean you can not be reborn, it only means the DO can not snatch your soul and put it in a new body, like he did with Moridin, Cyndane and the Gars.

 

The Dragon has never turned to the Shadow, that was just Ishamael being a lying liar.

 

So Ishy was lying and the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past according to Jordan. We have somewhat conflicting quotes, can anyone clarify?

[Agitel]

Balefire does not mean you can not be reborn, it only means the DO can not snatch your soul and put it in a new body, like he did with Moridin, Cyndane and the Gars.

 

The Dragon has never turned to the Shadow, that was just Ishamael being a lying liar.

 

So Ishy was lying and the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past according to Jordan. We have somewhat conflicting quotes, can anyone clarify?

 

They're not conflicting at all, technically, as "there's no word that's not true." Robert Jordan's a damn Aes Sedai or something.

[MikeRiley]

Balefire doesn't burn the thread from the pattern, it burns it back. The distance is dependent on the strength of the balefire used. The Dark One has a limited window of opportunity to secure a soul after the person dies. The reason it's so hard for him to secure a balefired soul is because even if he is watching as the person dies and has the quickest possible reaction time, he could still be too late because when he sees the death it will have already happened - effectively shortening the amount of time he has left to act.

 

For argument's sake, let's say the Dark One has a 10 minute window where he can secure a soul. If you balefired somebody and it burned their thread back 5 minutes, then that leaves the Dark One with 5 minutes reaction time to secure the soul. If your balefire was strong enough to burn them back 15 minutes, then even if the Dark One was actually present and reacted right then, he would still be 5 minutes too late. The level of balefire we've seen so far in the books (with the possible exception of Moiraine's) has probably been great enough that it removed the Dark One's ability to secure the souls. Bel'al's was the weakest balefire death and we've no reason to believe he's back so it's just a matter of technicalities.

 

I'm pretty sure Robert Jordan explained the window of opportunity in a question/answer thing at one point but I've never been any good at finding those.

[Mystica]

I must have missed that interview where RJ confirms this. Thanks for the info, guys. This was totally new to me. Very interesting.

[Cirin]

What confuses me is I've read RJ quotes that seem to support both sides. Not sure exactly when it was said but in addition to the "you believe Ishy" I have also read

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 20 January 2003 - Dayton, OH

 

Q: (inaudible)

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

Is that referring to a diff champion of the light?

 

This is actually interesting to see... I've been speculating regarding Moridin and the role that he might play in Tarmon Gaidon, as well as why he is called the Betrayer of Hope.  They do mention that he burned the Hall of Servants, which in and of itself may be enough, but I've been wondering lately if perhaps he was "supposed" to be the Champion of Light, but sided with the Dark One instead - thus Llews Therin had to step in and it ended, so to speak, in a draw - the Dark One not truly sealed, but only partly so.  If that is the case, I'll be even more convinced that turning Elan Morin back to the Light will be the integral part of defeating the Dark One... but I could be way wrong, too.  Just an interesting thought.