Game Balance?

[LilyElizabeth]

I know we had a discussion going on this a while back, but I wanted to approach it from a different angle. Personally, I don't enjoy playing in games where the balance is drastically off, and I'm sure most of you feel the same way. So, can those of you who really know how to balance a game give us some pointers, or even a short tutorial? I'd appreciate it so much!

 

Obviously, you start with 25% of your players as mafia, and then?

 

[LilyElizabeth]

I know this is advanced stuff, but what if you have two players who have to find one another (through PMing the mod) and then they become something if they do? How do you balance a "might happen, might not" situation?

 

[Charis alAslan]

Good topic, Lily. I, too, would like to know.  :)

[Guest dragonsworn1991]

Well first of all you don't have to start with 25% mafia. Most of the times you will have either less or more then that ration because of other elements to the game. If there is a cult and a sk, you would probably use 20%.

 

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I know this is advanced stuff, but what if you have two players who have to find one another (through PMing the mod) and then they become something if they do? How do you balance a "might happen, might not" situation?

 

 

Well if you have your game balanced towards that situation then I would suggest letting each person submit a name or two each night, and when one finds the other they get united.

 

I would have the game slightly unbalanced for the opposing team, depending on what will happen. When they get united that would automatically make the game shift in favor of what alignment the two united players are, because they will gain the ability to talk off thread.

[cosmicpanda]

The best way is to work through the probabilities with a probability tree and an eye for the effect that the optimum play would have on the game. Takes time but is probably worth it.

 

The second best way is to work out the fastest possible town win, and likewise scum, and likewise all other factions, and decide if that way of doing it is fair. Ask  yourself if you would be happy playing in one of the losing factions.

[Reyoru]

In game events can majorly tip the balance in the direction you want it to. So, mid-game if you feel one side is at a significant disadvantage, its your job as the mod to make it even. And an in game event is a great way of doing that.

[WWWwombat]

But at the same time you don't want to punish people for playing well.  If one side is at a huge disadvantage because of imbalance then by all means even it out, but if it's just because they played poorly and/or the other side played well, then leave it alone imo.

[Reyoru]

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But at the same time you don't want to punish people for playing well.  If one side is at a huge disadvantage because of imbalance then by all means even it out, but if it's just because they played poorly and/or the other side played well, then leave it alone imo.

 

I agree. Which is why I said "significantly" at a disadvantage. The discretion is the mods, and a good mod will have good discretion.

[Verbal32]

Pandy's idea is the best, imo.  You set up your game, and then mock play it for the quickest town victory, mafia victory, solo/whatever else victory.  Then you look at how long it took for each of them and decide if it makes sense.  Can the mafia win on Night 2, but the town not until Day 5?  Probably need more ammo for the town....like a RB or a bulletproof townie or a governor...you get the idea.  But then you redo your mock, and ensure that there is as much balance as you can.  If the theme of the game allows a potential quick win for one side, then the best balance to that is if the optimum play isn't reached, the game can quickly swing to the other side.  For example, Kivam's Avatar game on JN - yes, we as mafia had a quick kill to end the game....but if we didn't get that soon, there would have been no way for us to win with that quick kill....we would have had to win the normal way.

 

But like Wombat said, you can't punish people for playing well.  If the game is balanced based on the optimum play for both sides, and one of those sides actually makes the optimum play, then you (as mod) do nothing.  To add a game event at that point is wrong, and I'd never play another game by that mod.  If the game is balanced, and one side is just kicking butt due to luck, skill, whatever, then so be it.

[LilyElizabeth]

What I'm aiming for is a game that I have balanced so I DON'T have to balance it during the game. I like the idea of running scenarios for the quickest win. That explains so much.

 

My Disney game was so huge (30 players) and only my second game modding. I thought it seemed balanced, but I found that I spent the whole game trying to keep the mafia from winning TOO fast. They did eventually win, but it could have gone either way towards the end. I don't want to do that again. I like to have "events," let's call them, but not for the purpose of game balance. I feel that should be in place before a single player signs up.

 

Great advice, guys! Anybody else have anything for us?

 

[WWWwombat]

The Disney game was still really fun though what with the superteams.  When I realized how buff the mafia was I didn't envy you one bit lol.

[LilyElizabeth]

That was freaking unreal! For those who weren't there, night 1, the mafia recruits the cult leader (and lets not start on why we shouldn't let that happen - I learned, believe me  :-\) and the recruiting mason recruiting the doubler, and learning his trigger so she could be doubled every night. It was like superheroes and supervillians. The mafia recruited all the solo winners except poor Verb, who almost made it, but not quite. And the other side sat with multiple limited investigative roles. It was crazy. It was fun. And I'll never do it again!

 

[Charis alAslan]

Haha! Wow, Lily. Sounds like an intense game. I should go read the thread. =) What does it mean that 'she learned his trigger' so she could be doubled?

[LilyElizabeth]

It was a role I tweaked. He was Genie from Aladdin. Every day, the first person to use the word "wish" got their power doubled that cycle. He could stop it if he wanted to. It was a fun role. One of the three new roles I created or tweaked for the game.

 

[Charis alAslan]

ah! very sweet.

[LilyElizabeth]

I'm trying to do this on my own with the game I'm working on.

 

So, I run through and see how quickly the town can win - best case scenario, and same for the mafia and solos. I get that part. But what about roles like double voter or other things that won't affect the speed of the win? How do they factor in? They must affect balance.

 

Pandy, I understand how a probability tree would help, but developing one is not a skill I happen to possess.  ;)

 

 

[Alys Kinch]

A double voter would majorly effect end game and hammer votes (provided they wait to use it as a hammer) for which ever team they are on. in other words, a direct effect on every day's votes.

 

you pull the probabilities for easily duped and hard won for innocent.

[LilyElizabeth]

I'm beginning to think this isn't something I'm going to be able to grasp. I only understood about half of that, Alys.

 

I decided to send the one I just finished writing out to a friend to butcher check it. I may just have to do that for a while till it all makes sense. I'm so stubbornly independent about these things!

 

[DPR]

I don't know how to explain this any better than to say that putting together a well balanced game is like composing music, or creating a recipe.

 

I'll tell you flat out that the new trend of handing out roles like sweettarts is going to make it nigh impossible to balance.

 

Lily, the situation you described above would have to be balanced by a trigger where a new mafia team was created. But that gets complicated.

 

And, now everybody seems to use roles like deputees that were just given a gun - I've seen really powerful roles wasted, or even ignored just because they weren't sexy.

 

I'll also tell you that the further this gets away from strategy and planning, the less I'm entertained by it personally.

 

A normal mafia ratio can be 20% to 25% if you are giving the town a finder and a healer. But that's based on the mafia's knowledge of each other and the power to coordinate actions. Throw in a Mason team -something a lot of mods kind of treat benignly, and you've drastically tipped toward the town. A vig can be fairly nuetral, but a Cult leader changes the entire dynamic of the game and this only works with a higher player count.

 

When Alys talks about the double voter, she's looking at tit from a strategy point of view, and it becomes a very powerful role. But, in the hands of a noob, it deosn't mean much - which bring up random role assignments - because even if you read through the setup and mock up the outcomes, the difference between me getting an SK/Solo Win role vs. someone playing their third game is pretty big. What do you do with that?

 

And the answer is to teach people how to play, and not make everybody so role dependent. Mary Sue Mafia isn't nearly as fun as palin vanilla. For me, anyway.

[LilyElizabeth]

You didn't know that music is my field, or was. That makes so much more sense now. I just need to figure out where to put the bridge, how the key change works best, etc. And experience is the only way to do that. Thanks for making it so easy to understand.

 

Unfortunately, people love roles, and I love creating new ones, BUT I also love Standard and simple setups. And I do hear you on that. Too much fire power does take away from the need to use strategy. But you play what the crowd wants to hear. So, my plan for now is to ask for help with the complicated ones, and work on some easy ones by myself. I'll let you know which ones you might like to play in.  ;)

 

Edit - You know, you are so right! I was thinking about it and which are my favorite moments in mafia? When I had a super power that I got to use, or the times I had to scramble to stay alive or pull off some really tough moves? An easy win bores me. A tough near win is far better. Heck, a loss where I had fun trying is even fun. And it's fun to watch others catch me. In a recent game here, I lost, but it was so much fun to watch the one person it came down to agonize over her vote. I was thrilled when she guessed right! Of course, I would have been equally thrilled had she guessed wrong and I won.  ;) But that was her moment, and it was fun for all of us. And this was a standard (yes, a standard) game.

 

[Jeran]

Regarding throwing in a mason team.  I read in a mafiascum primer on how to balance a game that you should only have a max of two information roles on the town side and a mason team counts as an information role.

 

I wish I had read that bit before running my last game instead of during.

[Talya]

I think pone of the major things that can disrupt the balance is the recruiting role. Sometimes it gets used a little too much. Having unlimited recruits can be very one sided, you need limitations on that role or people to block it or disrupt it. Too many times I've seen cult rip through a game and win it hands down, it's sad. I'm with Lily and Wes, a good old plain game is can be more enjoyable than a very complicated themed game. Though I like those occasionally. ;)

 

I get the impression that people seemed to get bored more if they don't have a role of some kind. Personally I don't mind, it's great to have, but been a vanilla townie can be even more fun! lol

[LilyElizabeth]

Talya, you have some good points there. I almost never use cults, although anytime I make a statement like that, I feel honor-bound to do exactly that, because I have seen players in my games say "Don't worry. That role's not in here. Lily hates it." Guess what role shows up next game?  ;D

 

I don't think roles are the only way to keep the players entertained and interested. If things slow down I use threats. lol (I just realized last night that Wes does the same thing.) You know the old "If you guys don't want to decide who dies, I'd be happy to do that." Works like a charm!  ;)

 

[Alys Kinch]

Yes, as wes said, i was trying to show how effective the role could be if used well (following up on pandy's statement of max efficiency of each role.).

 

if the double voter is the hammer vote, s/he could end day's unexpectedly fast. this is especially a big deal at end game where a wrong vote loses the game and a correct vote squashes mafia chances to sway a vote change. this is even more effective as a blind double voter so mafia can't just kill the player.

 

then just think of it reversed and in mafia hands. danya having that in kivam's game was scary as hell.

[Barmacral]

While all these fancy setups are pretty fancy, I do also enjoy a simple standard setup with no tricks or fancy things. And I know I'm not alone, part of the reason that I like to run them every once in a while is because I know that there are others out there, such as The Dude (one of the really old school players) who don't like the big fancy games. In the case of The Dude, he actually quit playing mafia shortly after we introduced the role heavy crazy setups. I was able to lure him back into them once or twice only, because I ran these standard setup games.